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发帖数: 1741 | 1 12. Memorandum of Conversation1
Beijing, February 17–18, 1973, 11:30 p.m.–1:20 a.m.
PARTICIPANTS
Mao Tsetung, Chairman, Politburo, Chinese Communist Party
Chou En-lai, Premier of the State Council
Wang Hai-jung, Assistant Minister of Foreign Affairs
Tang Wen-sheng, Interpreter
Shen Jo-yun, Interpreter
Dr. Henry A. Kissinger, Assistant to the President for National Security
Affairs
Winston Lord, NSC Staff
(At 11:00 p.m. February 17, 1973 at a meeting in a villa near the Guest
House where Dr. Kissinger and his party were staying, Prime Minister Chou En
-lai informed Dr. Kissinger that he and Winston Lord were invited to meet
with Chairman Mao Tsetung at 11:30 p.m. that evening. He told Dr. Kissinger
that he would come to the Guest House shortly to escort him to the Chairman'
s residence.
Dr. Kissinger and his delegation members at the meeting went back to the
Guest House. Prime Minister Chou En-lai came to the Guest House at 11:20 p.m
. and rode with Dr. Kissinger to Chungnahai. Mr. Chu, Deputy Director of
Protocol, accompanied Mr. Lord. Prime Minister Chou En-lai escorted Dr.
Kissinger into the outer room of the Guest House and then through another
room to Chairman Mao's sitting room.
The Chairman was helped up from his chair by his young female attendant and
came forward to greet Dr. Kissinger. Photographers took pictures. He
welcomed Dr. Kissinger and Dr. Kissinger pointed out that it was almostly
exactly a year ago that he had first met the Chairman. The Chairman then
greeted Mr. Lord and commented that he was so young, younger than the
interpreters. Mr. Lord replied that he was in any event older than the
interpreters. The Chairman then motioned to the large easy chairs and the
parties sat down. The photographers continued to take pictures.)
Chairman Mao (As he headed toward his chair): I don't look bad, but God has
sent me an invitation.
(To Mr. Lord) You are a young man.
Mr. Lord: I am getting older.
Chairman Mao: I am the oldest among those seated here.
Prime Minister Chou: I am the second oldest.
Chairman Mao: There was someone in the British Army who was opposed to the
independence of your country. Field Marshal Montgomery was one of those to
oppose your policy.
Dr. Kissinger: Yes.
Chairman Mao: He opposed the Dulles policy.2 He probably doesn't oppose you
anymore. At that time, you also opposed us. We also opposed you. So we are
two enemies (Laughter).
Dr. Kissinger: Two former enemies.
Chairman Mao: Now we call the relationship between ourselves a friendship.
Dr. Kissinger: That's our sentiment.
Chairman Mao: That's what I am saying.
Dr. Kissinger: I have told the Prime Minister that we speak to no other
country as frankly and as openly as we do to you.
Chairman Mao (To the photographers): That's all for you.
[The photographers leave.]
But let us not speak false words or engage in trickery. We don't steal your
documents. You can deliberately leave them somewhere and try us out. Nor do
we engage in eavesdropping and bugging. There is no use in those small
tricks. And some of the big maneuvering, there is no use to them too. I said
that to your correspondent, Mr. Edgar Snow.3 I said that your CIA is no
good for major events.
Dr. Kissinger: That's absolutely true. That's been our experience.
Chairman Mao: Because when you issue an order, for example, when your
President issues an order, and you want information on a certain question,
then the intelligence reports come as so many snowflakes. We also have our
intelligence service and it is the same with them. They do not work well (
Prime Minister Chou laughs). For instance, they didn't know about Lin Piao.4
(Prime Minister Chou laughs) Then again they didn't know you wanted to come.
I read two articles in 1969. One of your Directors of your China desk in the
State Department wrote an article later published in a Japanese newspaper.
Dr. Kissinger: I don't think I read that.
Prime Minister Chou: I hadn't mentioned it to you before.
Dr. Kissinger: No.
Chairman Mao: Your business was done well. You've been flying everywhere.
Are you a swallow or a pigeon? (Laughter) And the Vietnamese issue can be
counted as basically settled.
Dr. Kissinger: That is our feeling. We must now have a transitional period
toward tranquility.
Chairman Mao: Yes, that's right.
Dr. Kissinger: The basic issues are settled.
Chairman Mao: We also say in the same situation (gesturing with his hand)
that's what your President said when he was sitting here, that each side has
its own means and acted out of its own necessity. That resulted in the two
countries acting hand-in-hand.
Dr. Kissinger: Yes, we both face the same danger. We may have to use
different methods sometimes but for the same objectives.
Chairman Mao: That would be good. So long as the objectives are the same, we
would not harm you nor would you harm us. And we can work together to
commonly deal with a bastard. (Laughter)
Actually it would be that sometime we want to criticize you for a while and
you want to criticize us for a while. That, your President said, is the
ideological influence. You say, away with you Communists. We say, away with
you imperialists. Sometimes we say things like that. It would not do not to
do that.
Dr. Kissinger: I think both of us must be true to our principles. And in
fact it would confuse the situation if we spoke the same language. I have
told the Prime Minister that in Europe you, because of your principles, can
speak more firmly than we can, strangely enough.
Chairman Mao: As for you, in Europe and Japan, we hope that you will
cooperate with each other. As for some things it is alright to quarrel and
bicker about, but fundamental cooperation is needed.
Dr. Kissinger: As between you and us, even if we sometimes criticize each
other, we will coordinate our actions with you, and we would never
participate in a policy to isolate you. As for Japan and Europe, we agree
that we should cooperate on all essential matters with them. Europe has very
weak leadership right now.
Chairman Mao: They don't unite with each other.
Dr. Kissinger: They don't unite, and they don't take farsighted views. When
they are confronted with a danger they hope it will go away without effort.
Prime Minister Chou: I told Dr. Kissinger you [the U.S.] should still help
Pompidou.5
Chairman Mao: Yes indeed.
Dr. Kissinger: We are doing our utmost, and we will do more.
Chairman Mao: (Gesturing with his hands) Now Mr. Pompidou is being
threatened. It is the Socialist Party and the Communist Party putting their
strength against him.
Dr. Kissinger: Yes, and they have united.
Chairman Mao: (Pointing at Dr. Kissinger) They are uniting and the Soviet
Union wants the Communist Party to get into office. I don't like their
Communist party, just like I don't like your Communist party. I like you,
but not your Communist party. (Laughter)
In the West you always historically had a policy, for example, in both World
Wars you always began by pushing Germany to fight against Russia.
Dr. Kissinger: But it is not our policy to push Russia to fight against
China, because the danger to us of a war in China is as great as a war in
Europe.
Chairman Mao: (Before Dr. Kissinger's remarks are translated, he makes
remarks in Chinese and counts on his fingers. Miss Tang then translates Dr.
Kissinger's remarks and after that Chairman Mao's remarks.)
What I wanted to say is whether or not you are now pushing West Germany to
make peace with Russia and then push Russia eastward. I suspect the whole of
the West has such an idea, that is to push Russia eastward, mainly against
us and also Japan. Also probably towards you, in the Pacific Ocean and the
Indian Ocean.
Dr. Kissinger: We did not favor this policy. We preferred the German
opposition party which did not pursue this policy. (Chairman Mao, smoking a
cigar, offers cigars to Dr. Kissinger and Mr. Lord who decline.)
Chairman Mao: Yes, that's our feeling. We are also in favor of the
opposition party in Germany.
Dr. Kissinger: They conducted themselves very stupidly.
Chairman Mao: Yes, they were defeated. The whole of Europe is thinking only
of peace.
Prime Minister Chou: The illusions of peace created by their leaders.
Dr. Kissinger: Yes, but we will do our best to strengthen European defenses
and keep our armies in Europe.
Chairman Mao: That would be very good.
Dr. Kissinger: We have no plan for any large reduction of our forces in
Europe for the next four years (Chairman Mao turns to Prime Minister Chou).
Prime Minister Chou: In talking about reducing your troops, you mean only at
the most 10 to 15 percent.
Dr. Kissinger: That is exactly correct.
Chairman Mao: What is the number of American troops in Europe? They are
probably mostly rocket units.
Prime Minister Chou: There are between 300–350,000 including the
Mediterranean.
Chairman Mao: That probably does not include the Navy.
Dr. Kissinger: It does not include the Navy. There are about 275,000 in
Central Europe. That does not include the Sixth Fleet in the Mediterranean.
Chairman Mao: And your troop deployment to Asia and the Pacific Ocean is too
scattered. You have them in Korea. I heard the number is about 300,000.
Dr. Kissinger: About 40,000.
Chairman Mao: And from 8 to 9,000 with Chiang Kai-shek.
Prime Minister Chou: In Taiwan.
Chairman Mao: Then it is said that there are two groups in Japan, 40,000 in
Okinawa and 20 to 30,000 in Japan proper. I don't know how many there are in
the Philippines. Now you have remaining in Vietnam a bit over 10,000.
Dr. Kissinger: But they will all be withdrawn.
Chairman Mao: Yes, and I heard that you have 40,000 in Thailand.
Dr. Kissinger: That is correct. But all the units the Chairman mentioned are
mostly air force units and therefore they probably cannot be measured by
the number of personnel.
Chairman Mao: You also have ground forces, for instance, in South Korea.
Dr. Kissinger: In South Korea we have ground forces.
Chairman Mao: That was all begun by Truman and Acheson. So this time you
held a memorial service for Truman and we didn't go. (Laughter)
Dr. Kissinger: When you have a liaison office in Washington it will be more
possible in the future.
Prime Minister Chou: You've held all these memorial services, both for
Truman and Johnson (Chairman Mao and Prime Minister Chou laugh).
It seems to me that your voice is hoarse today. You should have a day's rest
tomorrow. Why do you want to continue to talk so much?
Dr. Kissinger: Because it is very important that you and we understand what
we are going to do and to coordinate our actions, and therefore we always
tell the Prime Minister what our plans are in various areas of the world so
that you can understand the individual moves when they are made.
Chairman Mao: Yes. When you pass through Japan, you should perhaps talk a
bit more with them. You only talked with them for one day and that isn't
very good for their face.
Dr. Kissinger: Mr. Chairman, we wanted this trip's emphasis to be on the
talks in Peking, and I will take a separate trip to Tokyo.
Chairman Mao: Good. And also make clear to them.
You know the Japanese feelings towards the Soviet Union are not so very good.
Dr. Kissinger: They are very ambivalent.
Chairman Mao: (Gesturing with his hand) In a word, during the Second World
War, Prime Minister Tanaka told our Premier, what the Soviet Union did was
that upon seeing a person about to hang himself, they immediately took the
chair from under his feet.
Dr. Kissinger: Yes.
Chairman Mao: It could be said that they didn't fire a single shot and yet
they were able to grab so many places (Prime Minister Chou chuckles). They
grabbed the People's Republic of Mongolia. They grabbed half of Sinkiang. It
was called a sphere of influence. And Manchukuo, on the northeast, was also
called their sphere of influence.
Dr. Kissinger: And they took all the industry out of it.
Chairman Mao: Yes. And they grabbed also the islands of Sakhalin and the
Kuriles Island. (Chairman Mao and Prime Minister Chou discuss among
themselves.) Sakhalin is the southern part of the Kuriles Island. I will
look it up in the dictionary to see what its Chinese translation is.
Dr. Kissinger: The Japanese are tempted by the economic possibilities in
Russia.
Chairman Mao: (Nodding yes) They want to grab something there.
Dr. Kissinger: But we will encourage closer ties between Japan and ourselves
, and also we welcome their relationship with the People's Republic.
Chairman Mao: We also believe that rather than Japan having closer relations
with the Soviet Union, we would rather that they would better their
relations with you. That would be better.
Dr. Kissinger: It would be very dangerous if Japan and the Soviet Union
formed closer political relations.
Chairman Mao: That doesn't seem likely.
Prime Minister Chou: The prospects are not too good.
Chairman Mao: We can also do some work there.
Dr. Kissinger: The Soviet Union has made overtures but the Japanese have not
responded. They have invited Ohira to go to Moscow.
Prime Minister Chou: Yes, this year, the second half.
Dr. Kissinger: This year.
Prime Minister Chou: And it seems on this question that Ohira has a clearer
idea of the Soviet Union than others. But there are some not so clear in
their understanding as their Foreign Minister.
Dr. Kissinger: That is correct.
Prime Minister Chou: That is also the bureaucracy as you term it.
Dr. Kissinger: We are prepared to exchange information with you on these
matters.
Prime Minister Chou: (To Chairman Mao) We have decided besides establishing
a liaison office in each capital to maintain the contact between Huang Hua
and the White House.
Chairman Mao: (To Prime Minister Chou) Where is the stress?
Prime Minister Chou: The liaison office will handle the general public
exchanges. For confidential and urgent matters not covered by the liaison
office we will use the channel of Ambassador Huang Hua.
Chairman Mao: Huang Hua has met an ill fate (Prime Minister Chou laughs). He
was doing very well in your place and immediately upon his return to
Shanghai, he twisted his back.
Dr. Kissinger: We will find a doctor for him when he returns.
Chairman Mao: Yes. (Prime Minister Chou laughs). He seemed more safe in your
place. Immediately upon his return to Shanghai he collapsed.
From the atmosphere with which your President received our acrobatic troupe,
I thought that the Vietnamese issue was going to be settled.
There were some rumors that said that you were about to collapse (laughter).
And the women folk seated here were all dissatisfied with that (laughter,
especially pronounced among the women). They said if the Doctor is going to
collapse, we would be out of work.
Dr. Kissinger: Not only in China.
Chairman Mao: Yes, and the whole line would collapse like dominos.
Dr. Kissinger: Those were just journalists' speculation.
Chairman Mao: Only speculation?
Dr. Kissinger: Only speculation.
Chairman Mao: No ground whatsoever?
Dr. Kissinger: No ground whatsoever. In fact the opposite was true. We have
now been able to place our men into all key positions.
Chairman Mao: (Nodding yes) Your President is now saying that you are
proposing something as if you were moving the Great Wall from China to the
United States, that is, trade barriers.
Dr. Kissinger: What we want to do is lower barriers.
Chairman Mao: To lower them? Then you were doing that just to frighten
people. You are saying that you are going to raise tariffs and non-tariff
barriers and maybe you do that to intimidate Europe and Japan.
Dr. Kissinger: Partly. We are proposing a trade bill which gives both the
power to raise and lower barriers, in order to get it passed through
Congress. We must create the impression that we might increase barriers. We
want executive authority to do it without Congressional approval, but if we
ask Congress to reduce barriers they would refuse. (Prime Minister Chou
laughs.) And this is why we are asking for executive authority to move in
either direction.
Chairman Mao: What if they don't give it to you?
Dr. Kissinger: We think they will give it to us. It will be a difficult
battle, but we are quite certain we will win. We are proposing it also in
such general language that we can remove discrimination that still exists
towards the People's Republic.
Chairman Mao: The trade between our two countries at present is very pitiful
. It is gradually increasing. You know China is a very poor country. We don'
t have much. What we have in excess is women. (Laughter)
Dr. Kissinger: There are no quotas for those or tariffs.
Chairman Mao: So if you want them we can give a few of those to you, some
tens of thousands. (Laughter)
Prime Minister Chou: Of course, on a voluntary basis.
Chairmain Mao: Let them go to your place. They will create disasters. That
way you can lessen our burdens. (Laughter)
Dr. Kissinger: Our interest in trade with China is not commercial. It is to
establish a relationship that is necessary for the political relations we
both have.
Chairman Mao: Yes.
Dr. Kissinger: That is the spirit with which we are conducting our
discussions.
Chairman Mao: I once had a discussion with a foreign friend. (The
interpreters hold a discussion with Chairman Mao.) I said that we should
draw a horizontal line—the U.S.–Japan–Pakistan–Iran (Chairman Mao coughs
badly.)–Turkey and Europe.
Dr. Kissinger: We have a very similar conception. You may have read in a
newspaper that Mr. Helms has been moved to Iran, and there was a great deal
of speculation how this affected my position. In fact we sent Helms to Iran
to take care of Turkey, Iran, Pakistan and the Persian Gulf, because of his
experience in his previous position and we needed a reliable man in that
spot who understands the more complex matters that are needed to be done. (
Chairman Mao lights his cigar again.) We will give him authority to deal
with all of these countries, although this will not be publicly announced.
Chairman Mao: As for such matters we do not understand very much your
affairs in the United States. There are a lot of things we don't know very
well. For example, your domestic affairs, we don't understand them. There
are also many things about foreign policy that we don't understand either.
Perhaps in your future four years we might be able to learn a bit.
Dr. Kissinger: I told the Prime Minister that you have a more direct, maybe
a more heroic mode of action than we do. We have to use sometimes more
complicated methods because of our domestic situation. (Chairman Mao queries
about the translation and Miss Tang repeats “mode of action.”) But on our
fundamental objectives we will act very decisively and without regard to
public opinion. So if a real danger develops or hegemonial intentions become
active, we will certainly resist them wherever they appear. And as the
President said to the Chairman, in our own interests, not as a kindness to
anyone else.
Chairman Mao: (Laughing) Those are honest words.
Dr. Kissinger: This is our position.
Chairman Mao: Do you want our Chinese women? We can give you ten million. (
Laughter, particularly among the women.)
Dr. Kissinger: The Chairman is improving his offer.
Chairman Mao: By doing so we can let them flood your country with disaster
and therefore impair your interests. In our country we have too many women,
and they have a way of doing things. They give birth to children and our
children are too many. (Laughter)
Dr. Kissinger: It is such a novel proposition, we will have to study it.
Chairman Mao: You can set up a committee to study the issue. That is how
your visit to China is settling the population question. (Laughter)
Dr. Kissinger: We will study utilization and allocation.
Chairman Mao: If we ask them to go I think they would be willing.
Prime Minister Chou: Not necessarily.
Chairman Mao: That's because of their feudal ideas, big nation chauvinism.
Dr. Kissinger: We are certainly willing to receive them.
Chairman Mao: The Chinese are very alien-excluding.
For instance, in your country you can let in so many nationalities, yet in
China how many foreigners do you see?
Prime Minister Chou: Very few.
Dr. Kissinger: Very few.
Chairman Mao: You have about 600,000 Chinese in the United States. We
probably don't even have 60 Americans here. I would like to study the
problem. I don't know the reason.
Miss Tang: Mr. Lord's wife is Chinese.
Chairman Mao: Oh?
Mr. Lord: Yes.
Chairman Mao: I studied the problem. I don't know why the Chinese never like
foreigners. There are no Indians perhaps. As for the Japanese, they are not
very numerous either; compared to others there are quite a few and some are
married and settled down.
Dr. Kissinger: Of course, your experience with foreigners has not been all
that fortunate.
Chairman Mao: Yes, perhaps that is some reason for that.
Yes, in the past hundred years, mainly the eight powers, and later it was
Japan during the Boxer Revolution. For thirt.e.e.n years Japan occupied
China, they occupied the major part of China; and in the past the allied
forces, the invading foreigners, not only occupied Chinese territory, they
also asked China for indemnity.
Dr. Kissinger: Yes, and extraterritorial rights.
Chairman Mao: Now in our relations with Japan, we haven't asked them for
indemnity and that would add to the burden of the people. It would be
difficult to calculate all the indemnity. No accountant would be able to do
it.
And only in this way can we move from hostility to relaxation in relations
between peoples. And it will be more difficult to settle relations of
hostility between the Japanese and Chinese peoples than between us and you.
Dr. Kissinger: Yes. There is no feeling of hostility of American people at
all toward the Chinese people. On the contrary. Between us right now there
is only essentially a juridical problem. (Chairman Mao nods agreement.)
Which we will solve in the next years. But there is a strong community of
interest which is operating immediately.
Chairman Mao: Is that so?
Dr. Kissinger: Between China and the U.S.
Chairman Mao: What do you mean by community of interest? On Taiwan?
Dr. Kissinger: In relation to other countries that may have intentions.
Prime Minister Chou: You mean the Soviet Union?
Dr. Kissinger: I mean the Soviet Union.
Prime Minister Chou: Miss Shen understood you.
Chairman Mao: (Looking toward Miss Shen.) The Chinese have a good command of
English. (To Prime Minister Chou.) Who is she?
Prime Minister Chou: Miss Shen Jo-yun.
Chairman Mao: Girls. (Prime Minister Chou laughs.) Today I have been
uttering some nonsense for which I will have to beg the pardon of the women
of China.
Dr. Kissinger: It sounded very attractive to the Americans present.(Chairman
Mao and the girls laugh.)
Chairman Mao: If we are going to establish a liaison office in your country
do you want Miss Shen or Miss Tang?
Dr. Kissinger: We will deal with that through the channel of Huang Hua. (
Laughter)
Chairman Mao: Our interpreters are truly too few.
Dr. Kissinger: But they have done a remarkable job, the interpreters we have
met.
Chairman Mao: The interpreters you have met and our present interpreters who
are doing most of the work are now in their twenties and thirties. If they
grow too old they don't do interpretation so well.
Prime Minister Chou: We should send some abroad.
Chairman Mao: We will send children at such a height (indicating with his
hands), not too old.
Dr. Kissinger: We will be prepared to establish exchange programs where you
can send students to America.
Chairman Mao: And if among a hundred persons there are ten who are
successful learning the language well, then that would be a remarkable
success. And if among them a few dozens don't want to come back, for example
, some girls who want to stay in the United States, no matter. Because you
do not exclude foreigners like Chinese. In the past the Chinese went abroad
and they didn't want to learn the local language. (Looking toward Miss Tang)
Her grandparents refused to learn English.6 They are so obstinate. You know
Chinese are very obstinate and conservative. Many of the older generation
overseas Chinese don't speak the local language. But they are getting better
, the younger generation.
Dr. Kissinger: In America, all, or the vast majority, speak English.
Prime Minister Chou: That is the younger people. The first generation ones
don't learn the local language. There was an old overseas Chinese who came
back to China after living abroad. She was old and died in Peking in the
1950s when she was in her nineties. She was a member of our People's
Government. She didn't speak a word of English. She was Cantonese, extremely
conservative.
Dr. Kissinger: Chinese culture is so particular that it is difficult to
assimilate other cultures.
Chairman Mao: Chinese language is not bad, but the Chinese characters are
not good.
Prime Minister Chou: They are very difficult to learn.
Chairman Mao: And there are many contradictions between the oral and written
language because the oral language is monosyllabic while the written
language develops from symbols. We do not use the alphabet.
Dr. Kissinger: There are some attempts to use an alphabet I am told.
Prime Minister Chou: First we must standardize the oral language.
Chairman Mao: (Gestures with his hand and points to his books.) But if the
Soviet Union would throw its bombs and kill all those over 30 who are
Chinese, that would solve the problem for us. Because the old people like me
can't learn Chinese. We read Chinese. The majority of my books are Chinese.
There are very few dictionaries over there. All the other books are in
Chinese.
Dr. Kissinger: Is the Chairman learning English now?
Chairman Mao: I have heard that I am studying it. Those are rumors on the
outside. I don't heed them. They are false. I know a few English letters. I
don't know the grammar.
Miss Tang: The Chairman invented an English word.
Chairman Mao: Yes, I invented the English term “paper tiger.”
Dr. Kissinger: “Paper tiger.” Yes, that was all about us. (Laughter)
Chairman Mao: But you are a German from Germany. But your Germany now has
met with an ill fate, because in two wars it has been defeated.
Dr. Kissinger: It attempted too much, beyond its abilities and resources.
Chairman Mao: Yes, and it also scattered its forces in war. For example, in
its attack against the Soviet Union. If it is going to attack, it should
attack in one place, but they separated their troops into three routes. It
began in June but then by the winter they couldn't stand it because it was
too cold. What is the reason for the Europeans fear of the cold?
Dr. Kissinger: The Germans were not prepared for a long war. Actually they
did not mobilize their whole forces until 1943. I agree with the Chairman
that if they had concentrated on one front they would almost certainly have
won. They were only ten kilometers from Moscow even by dispersing their
forces. (Chairman Mao relights his cigar.)
Chairman Mao: They shouldn't have attacked Moscow or Kiev. They should have
taken Leningrad as a first step. Another error in policy was they didn't
cross the sea after Dunkirk.
Dr. Kissinger: After Dunkirk.
Chairman Mao: They were entirely unprepared.
Dr. Kissinger: And Hitler was a romantic. He had a strange liking for
England.
Chairman Mao: Oh? Then why didn't they go there? Because the British at that
time were completely without troops.
Dr. Kissinger: If they were able to cross the channel into Britain … I
think they had only one division in all of England.
Prime Minister Chou: Is that so?
Dr. Kissinger: Yes.
Prime Minister Chou: Also Sir Anthony Eden told us in Germany at that time
that a Minister in the Army of Churchill's Government said at that time if
Hitler had crossed the channel they would have had no forces. They had
withdrawn all their forces back. When they were preparing for the German
crossing, Churchill had no arms. He could only organize police to defend the
coast. If they crossed they would not be able to defend.
Dr. Kissinger: It also shows what a courageous man can do because Churchill
created by his personality much more strength than they possessed.
Chairman Mao: Actually by that time they couldn't hold.
Prime Minister Chou: So Hitler carried some romantic feelings about Britain?
Dr. Kissinger: I think he was a maniac, but he did have some feelings about
Britain.
Chairman Mao: I believe Hitler was from the Rhine area?
Dr. Kissinger: Austria.
Prime Minister Chou: He was a soldier in the First World War.
Dr. Kissinger: He was in the German Army, but he was a native of Austria.
Prime Minister Chou: From the Danube.
Dr. Kissinger: He conducted strategy artistically rather than strategically.
He did it by intuition. He had no overall plan.
Chairman Mao: Then why did the German troops heed him so much?
Dr. Kissinger: Probably because the Germans are somewhat romantic people and
because he must have had a very strong personality.
Chairman Mao: Mainly because during the First World War the German nation
was humiliated.
Dr. Kissinger: Yes, that was a very important factor.
Chairman Mao: If there are Russians going to attack China, I can tell you
today that our way of conducting a war will be guerrilla war and protracted
war. We will let them go wherever they want. (Prime Minister Chou laughs.)
They want to come to the Yellow River tributaries. That would be good, very
good. (Laughter) And if they go further to the Yangtse River tributaries,
that would not be bad either.
Dr. Kissinger: But if they use bombs and do not send armies? (Laughter)
Chairman Mao: What should we do? Perhaps you can organize a committee to
study the problem. We'll let them beat us up and they will lose any
resources. They say they are socialists. We are also socialists and that
will be socialists attacking socialists.
Dr. Kissinger: If they attack China, we would certainly oppose them for our
own reasons.
Chairman Mao: But your people are not awakened, and Europe and you would
think that it would be a fine thing if it were that the ill water would flow
toward China.
Dr. Kissinger: What Europe thinks I am not able to judge. They cannot do
anything anyway. They are basically irrelevant. (In the midst of this
Chairman Mao toasts Dr. Kissinger and Mr. Lord with tea.) What we think is
that if the Soviet Union overruns China, this would dislocate the security
of all other countries and will lead to our own isolation.
Chairman Mao: (Laughing) How will that happen? How would that be?
Because since in being bogged down in Vietnam you met so many difficulties,
do you think they would feel good if they were bogged down in China?
Dr. Kissinger: The Soviet Union?
Miss Tang: The Soviet Union.
Chairman Mao: And then you can let them get bogged down in China, for half a
year, or one, or two, or three, or four years. And then you can poke your
finger at the Soviet back. And your slogan then will be for peace, that is
you must bring down Socialist imperialism for the sake of peace. And perhaps
you can begin to help them in doing business, saying whatever you need we
will help against China.
Dr. Kissinger: Mr. Chairman, it is really very important that we understand
each other's motives. We will never knowingly cooperate in an attack on
China.
Chairman Mao: (Interrupting) No, that's not so. Your aim in doing that would
be to bring the Soviet Union down.
Dr. Kissinger: That's a very dangerous thing. (Laughter)
Chairman Mao: (Using both hands for gestures) The goal of the Soviet Union
is to occupy both Europe and Asia, the two continents.
Dr. Kissinger: We want to discourage a Soviet attack, not defeat it. We want
to prevent it. (Prime Minister Chou looks at his watch.)
Chairman Mao: As for things, matters, in the world, it is hard to say. We
would rather think about things this way. We think this way the world would
be better.
Dr. Kissinger: Which way?
Chairman Mao: That is that they would attack China and be defeated. We must
think of the worst eventuality.
Dr. Kissinger: That is your necessity. (Prime Minister Chou laughs.)
Chairman Mao: We have so many women in our country that don't know how to
fight.
Miss Tang: Not necessarily. There are women's detachments.
Chairman Mao: They are only on stage. In reality if there is a fight you
would flee very quickly and run into underground shelters.
Miss Wang: If the minutes of this talk were made public, it would incur the
public wrath on behalf of half the population.
Chairman Mao: That is half of the population of China.
Prime Minister Chou: First of all, it wouldn't pass the Foreign Ministry.
Chairman Mao: We can call this a secret meeting. (Chinese laughter) Should
our meeting today be public, or kept secret?
Dr. Kissinger: It's up to you. I am prepared to make it public if you wish.
Chairman Mao: What is your idea? Is it better to have it public or secret?
Dr. Kissinger: I think it is probably better to make it public.
Chairman Mao: Then the words we say about women today shall be made
nonexistent. (Laughter)
Dr. Kissinger: We will remove them from the record. (Laughter) We will start
studying this proposal when I get back.
Chairman Mao: You know, the Chinese have a scheme to harm the United States,
that is, to send ten million women to the United States and impair its
interests by increasing its population.
Dr. Kissinger: The Chairman has fixed the idea so much in my mind that I'll
certainly use it at my next press conference. (Laughter)
Chairman Mao: That would be all right with me. I'm not afraid of anything.
Anyway, God has sent me an invitation.
Dr. Kissinger: I really find the Chairman in better health this year than
last year.
Chairman Mao: Yes, I am better than last year.
[The photographers entered the room.]
They are attacking us. (The Chairman then gets up without assistance to say
goodbye to the Americans.)
Please give my warm regards to President Nixon. Also to Mrs. Nixon. I was
not able to meet her and Secretary Rogers. I must apologize.
Dr. Kissinger: I will certainly do that.
Prime Minister Chou: We will send you a press release in one hour.
(Chairman Mao escorts Dr. Kissinger into the outer room where he says
goodbye to Dr. Kissinger and Mr. Lord. Prime Minister Chou then escorts Dr.
Kissinger to his waiting car.)
1 Source: National Archives, Nixon Presidential Materials, NSC Files,
Kissinger Office Files, Box 98, Country Files, Far East, HAK China Trip,
Memcons & Reports (originals), February 1973. Top Secret; Sensitive;
Exclusively Eyes Only. The meeting was held in Mao's residence at Chungnahai
. All brackets are in the original. A February 17 memorandum from Kissinger,
sent telegraphically through Scowcroft, to Nixon recounted that the meeting
with Mao “was extremely frank and cordial, but the substance is of such
sensitivity that I should report it to you in person.” (Ibid., HAK Trip
Files, Box 29, Bangkok, Vientiane, Hanoi, Hong Kong, Peking, Tokyo Trip,
Itinerary Como Info, Memos to Pres., February 7–20, 1973)
2 This memorandum of conversation is also printed in The Kissinger
Transcripts, edited by William Burr (pp. 86–101). In explaining Mao's
comment about Field Marshal Montgomery, Burr notes that the British war hero
visited China in 1960 and 1961. On that trip he met with Mao and Zhou and
condemned the American policy associated with former Secretary of State John
Foster Dulles of opposing recognition of Communist China.
3 The journalist Edgar Snow wrote the book, Red Star Over China, that
introduced Mao to an American audience during the 1930s.
4 Lin Biao, PRC Minister of Defense from 1959 to September 1971, allegedly
plotted to assassinate Mao.
5 France held a general election on March 4 and 11. The coalition associated
with French President Georges Pompidou maintained a majority in the
National Assembly.
6 Tang Wen-sheng (Nancy Tang) was born in the United States.
Persons
Chiang Kai-shek
Chou En-lai
Chu Te
Dulles, John Foster
Helms, Richard M.
Huang Hua
Kissinger, Henry A.
Lin Biao (Lin Piao)
Lin Piao
Lord, Winston
Mao Tse-tung
Nixon, Richard M.
Ohira, Masayoshi
Pompidou, Georges
Scowcroft, Brent
Shen, James C. H.
Tanaka, Kakuei
Abbreviations & Terms
CIA
HAK
NSC
PRC
原文出处
http://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1969-76v18/d12 | w**********5
发帖数: 1741 | 2 Chairman Mao: Do you want our Chinese women? We can give you ten million. (
Laughter, particularly among the women.)
Dr. Kissinger: The Chairman is improving his offer.
Chairman Mao: By doing so we can let them flood your country with disaster
and therefore impair your interests. In our country we have too many women,
and they have a way of doing things. They give birth to children and our
children are too many. (Laughter)
Dr. Kissinger: It is such a novel proposition, we will have to study it.
Chairman Mao: You can set up a committee to study the issue. That is how
your visit to China is settling the population question. (Laughter)
Dr. Kissinger: We will study utilization and allocation.
Chairman Mao: If we ask them to go I think they would be willing.
Prime Minister Chou: Not necessarily.
Chairman Mao: That's because of their feudal ideas, big nation chauvinism.
Dr. Kissinger: We are certainly willing to receive them.
Chairman Mao: The Chinese are very alien-excluding.
For instance, in your country you can let in so many nationalities, yet in
China how many foreigners do you see?
Prime Minister Chou: Very few.
Dr. Kissinger: Very few.
Chairman Mao: You have about 600,000 Chinese in the United States. We
probably don't even have 60 Americans here. I would like to study the
problem. I don't know the reason.
Miss Tang: Mr. Lord's wife is Chinese.
Chairman Mao: Oh?
Mr. Lord: Yes.
Chairman Mao: I studied the problem. I don't know why the Chinese never like
foreigners. There are no Indians perhaps. As for the Japanese, they are not
very numerous either; compared to others there are quite a few and some are
married and settled down.
Dr. Kissinger: Of course, your experience with foreigners has not been all
that fortunate.
Chairman Mao: Yes, perhaps that is some reason for that.
Yes, in the past hundred years, mainly the eight powers, and later it was
Japan during the Boxer Revolution. For thirt.e.e.n years Japan occupied
China, they occupied the major part of China; and in the past the allied
forces, the invading foreigners, not only occupied Chinese territory, they
also asked China for indemnity.
Dr. Kissinger: Yes, and extraterritorial rights.
Chairman Mao: Now in our relations with Japan, we haven't asked them for
indemnity and that would add to the burden of the people. It would be
difficult to calculate all the indemnity. No accountant would be able to do
it.
And only in this way can we move from hostility to relaxation in relations
between peoples. And it will be more difficult to settle relations of
hostility between the Japanese and Chinese peoples than between us and you.
Dr. Kissinger: Yes. There is no feeling of hostility of American people at
all toward the Chinese people. On the contrary. Between us right now there
is only essentially a juridical problem. (Chairman Mao nods agreement.)
Which we will solve in the next years. But there is a strong community of
interest which is operating immediately. | g***1
发帖数: 515 | 3 原文只说了几万，又被后人篡改了。
【在 w**********5 的大作中提到】
: Chairman Mao: Do you want our Chinese women? We can give you ten million. (
: Laughter, particularly among the women.)
: Dr. Kissinger: The Chairman is improving his offer.
: Chairman Mao: By doing so we can let them flood your country with disaster
: and therefore impair your interests. In our country we have too many women,
: and they have a way of doing things. They give birth to children and our
: children are too many. (Laughter)
: Dr. Kissinger: It is such a novel proposition, we will have to study it.
: Chairman Mao: You can set up a committee to study the issue. That is how
: your visit to China is settling the population question. (Laughter)
| w**********5
发帖数: 1741 | 4
谁能篡改美国国务院的信息？
【在 g***1 的大作中提到】
: 原文只说了几万，又被后人篡改了。
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