N********n
发帖数: 8363 | 1 【 以下文字转载自 Programming 讨论区 】
发信人: randomtiger (吃苹果的老虎), 信区: Programming
标 题: google's memo about javascript
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Sep 14 16:10:42 2011, 美东)
it's interesting to read google's memo about javascript and their upcoming
DART/DASH project.
http://markmail.org/message/uro3jtoitlmq6x7t |
N********n
发帖数: 8363 | 2 "Javascript has fundamental flaws that cannot be fixed merely by evolving
the language." / Google
Hate to do this but I warned people of how trashy Javascript is, did I
not? With Google quietly abandoning the ship, Sinofsky and WinDiv have
now become the last fool left on the Javascript bandwagon with this
clueless attempt to make JS "the first-class citizen" in Win 8.
Now Google is looking for a SilverLight counter-part to replace JS and
yet MSFT is killing it to embrace Javascript. Can you say EPIC FAIL? |
b******y
发帖数: 9224 | 3 I thought compiled language was superior than scripting, now we are in the
era of scripting again...
There are no new engineering problems, just new engineers solving old
problems. |
b********7
发帖数: 12906 | 4 i don't understand your comments. javascript is just one of many languages
supported by win8. Why is this bad? |
c****c
发帖数: 605 | 5 google is pissing its pants since their scorched Earth strategy is
backfiring
【在 N********n 的大作中提到】
: "Javascript has fundamental flaws that cannot be fixed merely by evolving
: the language." / Google
: Hate to do this but I warned people of how trashy Javascript is, did I
: not? With Google quietly abandoning the ship, Sinofsky and WinDiv have
: now become the last fool left on the Javascript bandwagon with this
: clueless attempt to make JS "the first-class citizen" in Win 8.
: Now Google is looking for a SilverLight counter-part to replace JS and
: yet MSFT is killing it to embrace Javascript. Can you say EPIC FAIL?
|
b******y
发帖数: 9224 | 6
supported by win8. Why is this bad?
hehe, javascript is not bad. Quote somebody's saying, I don't have a problem
with it in win8 with other languages, however the only problem with
Javascript is it just has no taste ;-)
【在 b********7 的大作中提到】
: i don't understand your comments. javascript is just one of many languages
: supported by win8. Why is this bad?
|
N********n
发帖数: 8363 | 7
Javascript is garbage as Google admits it in their own words:
"The web development community has been backed into using large amounts
of JS largely to work around the deficiencies in the platform. Complex
web apps--the kind that Google specializes in--are struggling against
the platform and working with a language that cannot be tooled and has
inherent performance problems."
Google扔掉芝麻(Javascript)去找西瓜。
MSFT扔掉西瓜(SilverLight)去捡GOOGLE丢在地上的芝麻。 EPIC FAIL!
【在 b********7 的大作中提到】
: i don't understand your comments. javascript is just one of many languages
: supported by win8. Why is this bad?
|
b********7
发帖数: 12906 | 8 dude..silverlight is still supported by win8..javascript is an additional
option. what's wrong?
【在 N********n 的大作中提到】
:
: Javascript is garbage as Google admits it in their own words:
: "The web development community has been backed into using large amounts
: of JS largely to work around the deficiencies in the platform. Complex
: web apps--the kind that Google specializes in--are struggling against
: the platform and working with a language that cannot be tooled and has
: inherent performance problems."
: Google扔掉芝麻(Javascript)去找西瓜。
: MSFT扔掉西瓜(SilverLight)去捡GOOGLE丢在地上的芝麻。 EPIC FAIL!
|
N********n
发帖数: 8363 | 9
SilverLight as a web plug-in is dead even tho it's not openly talked
about, and yet that's where it shines most b/c Javascript-driven apps
cannot offer the same richness and elegance that SilverLight does.
Treating Javascript as an "additional option" is like putting a floppy
drive on your modern PC and claiming it as an option. It's outdated
garbage deserving no attention. All that energy wasted on supporting
Javascript could have been used somewhere else to improve Win8.
【在 b********7 的大作中提到】
: dude..silverlight is still supported by win8..javascript is an additional
: option. what's wrong?
|
G*****h
发帖数: 33134 | 10 same can bee said when VB came out hoho.
【在 N********n 的大作中提到】
:
: SilverLight as a web plug-in is dead even tho it's not openly talked
: about, and yet that's where it shines most b/c Javascript-driven apps
: cannot offer the same richness and elegance that SilverLight does.
: Treating Javascript as an "additional option" is like putting a floppy
: drive on your modern PC and claiming it as an option. It's outdated
: garbage deserving no attention. All that energy wasted on supporting
: Javascript could have been used somewhere else to improve Win8.
|
|
|
c****e
发帖数: 1453 | 11 Anyone used JS knows it's shit. It's still usable because people are using
higher layer to generate JS rather than writing it directly. It's a pity to
see that MS is very reluctant to acknowledge its support to SL on Windows.
Instead, Snofsky called it c#, interesting... |
n*********d
发帖数: 302 | 12 XJＢＣＤ！Win8的重点是语言无关的ｗｉｎｒｔ抽象层。你想用什么语言写都可以。事
实上ｗｉｎ８正在重新加强Ｃ／Ｃ＋＋的地位。不懂不要随便出来现眼！
【在 N********n 的大作中提到】
:
: SilverLight as a web plug-in is dead even tho it's not openly talked
: about, and yet that's where it shines most b/c Javascript-driven apps
: cannot offer the same richness and elegance that SilverLight does.
: Treating Javascript as an "additional option" is like putting a floppy
: drive on your modern PC and claiming it as an option. It's outdated
: garbage deserving no attention. All that energy wasted on supporting
: Javascript could have been used somewhere else to improve Win8.
|
N********n
发帖数: 8363 | 13
The issue is not about Win8. It is about the right web platform for
future. DevDiv had it in SilverLight web plug-in but WinDiv pulled the
strings from behind to gut it in favor of the Javascript junk that even
Google - biggest JS supporter until lately - is now abandoning.
SilverLight as a rich web app solution is dead not b/c of lack of tech
merit but backstabbing from WinDev. MSFT is the last fool still taking
Javascript junk as the central piece of the cross-platform solution.
Btw C++ is semi-garbage as well that doesn't even support refactoring
and intellisense but I give it a pass since it offers good performance
to compensate for it. Everyone else is trying to innovate yet WinDev is
suppressing innovation to embrace outdated garbage. EPIC FAIL.
【在 n*********d 的大作中提到】
: XJＢＣＤ！Win8的重点是语言无关的ｗｉｎｒｔ抽象层。你想用什么语言写都可以。事
: 实上ｗｉｎ８正在重新加强Ｃ／Ｃ＋＋的地位。不懂不要随便出来现眼！
|
b********7
发帖数: 12906 | 14 完全不知道你通篇的结论是从哪儿得来的.
plus, just so you know, silverlight is more than just a web plugin.
【在 N********n 的大作中提到】
:
: The issue is not about Win8. It is about the right web platform for
: future. DevDiv had it in SilverLight web plug-in but WinDiv pulled the
: strings from behind to gut it in favor of the Javascript junk that even
: Google - biggest JS supporter until lately - is now abandoning.
: SilverLight as a rich web app solution is dead not b/c of lack of tech
: merit but backstabbing from WinDev. MSFT is the last fool still taking
: Javascript junk as the central piece of the cross-platform solution.
: Btw C++ is semi-garbage as well that doesn't even support refactoring
: and intellisense but I give it a pass since it offers good performance
|
k****n
发帖数: 682 | 15 先树个风车，再来大战风车
【在 N********n 的大作中提到】
:
: The issue is not about Win8. It is about the right web platform for
: future. DevDiv had it in SilverLight web plug-in but WinDiv pulled the
: strings from behind to gut it in favor of the Javascript junk that even
: Google - biggest JS supporter until lately - is now abandoning.
: SilverLight as a rich web app solution is dead not b/c of lack of tech
: merit but backstabbing from WinDev. MSFT is the last fool still taking
: Javascript junk as the central piece of the cross-platform solution.
: Btw C++ is semi-garbage as well that doesn't even support refactoring
: and intellisense but I give it a pass since it offers good performance
|
N********n
发帖数: 8363 | 16
SilverLight's biggest selling point is Web RIA, which is why it lured
a lot non-MSFT developers frustrated over Javascript to the .Net camp.
It's very appealing that you can code SL apps as fancy as desktop APP
and yet run them in a browser.
Now that trust is destroyed. SilverLight plug-in is dead. People are
again sent back to Javascript nonsense. Once it's destroyed it takes
a long time to rebuild.
【在 b********7 的大作中提到】
: 完全不知道你通篇的结论是从哪儿得来的.
: plus, just so you know, silverlight is more than just a web plugin.
|
k****n
发帖数: 682 | 17 拜托，不要瞎扯了，去看一眼build的keynote再来扯吧，SL分明活得好好的。MS之所以
大力宣传html5 和 JS，主要是想吸引那些JS developer.
【在 N********n 的大作中提到】
:
: SilverLight's biggest selling point is Web RIA, which is why it lured
: a lot non-MSFT developers frustrated over Javascript to the .Net camp.
: It's very appealing that you can code SL apps as fancy as desktop APP
: and yet run them in a browser.
: Now that trust is destroyed. SilverLight plug-in is dead. People are
: again sent back to Javascript nonsense. Once it's destroyed it takes
: a long time to rebuild.
|
N********n
发帖数: 8363 | 18
If you go to the Build website you won't even find "SilverLight" in the
tag-list. I've got my SL knowledge 1st-hand from the Dev team so I know
the true state while what you guys are hearing is clearly PR.
You don't need to 吸引 JS developer by killing SL as a web plug-in, and
that's a disaster from day 1 and even more so now that Google is simply
vindicating what DevDiv has been saying about HTML/JS.
【在 k****n 的大作中提到】
: 拜托，不要瞎扯了，去看一眼build的keynote再来扯吧，SL分明活得好好的。MS之所以
: 大力宣传html5 和 JS，主要是想吸引那些JS developer.
|
y*******d
发帖数: 1765 | 19 I have the similar thought about js before. But now I have kinda changed my
mind.
First, why the heck sinofsky doesn't like C#/SL. A short answer is it's too
big. Loading a string class will essentially load 500 plus .net types into
memory which is damn stupid and perf killer. That's why SL is running on top
of CoreCLR. However, it's still too big if you thinking about running the
whole windows on tablet/phone.
Second, why ms embrace html/js now. Apps, to be specific, apps on tablet/
mobile. We can see a lot of hints that windows 8 is targeted to help on the
mobile/tablet war. Other than the os itself, the devs who write apps is also
a key factor whether the platform will succeeded or not. There are lots of
existing js/html devs and they may not be able to write apps for iphone/
android, but now they can write for windows 8. Lower the bar for the
developer will contribute to the ecosystem a lot, that's why microsoft keep
investing visual studio.
Last, problems about js the language itself. Part of them can be solved
partially if not totally. For example, perf issue can be somehow mitigated
by compiling them on the fly. And the problem of writing the raw javescript
can be solved by using script sharp which is pretty awesome. Again, they
will not be totally resolved in short term, but they can be improved for
sure. That's why it's too early to say it's dead meat and it still worth the
investment in my opinion. |
s***o
发帖数: 2191 | 20 JavaScript has its place. It is not an ideal language from the beginning, and likely will never be. But it's the only language that every party agreed upon for the Web. Either Silverlight or the new google language (they named it "Trash", right?) simply won't be able to achieve this goal. I believe JavaScript is an indispensable component for Web application development in the foreseeable future.
HTML5/JS for native applications is another story. Maybe there is only one person in the universe considering it's not a joke - the business man Steve Ballmer, educated by Sinofsky. I bet Sinofsky himself knows what's really going on though, thus we have C++ for the high performance end, and C# for the high productivity end, while the HTML5/JS framework can make the porting from web apps to native ones easier.
amounts
【在 N********n 的大作中提到】
:
: If you go to the Build website you won't even find "SilverLight" in the
: tag-list. I've got my SL knowledge 1st-hand from the Dev team so I know
: the true state while what you guys are hearing is clearly PR.
: You don't need to 吸引 JS developer by killing SL as a web plug-in, and
: that's a disaster from day 1 and even more so now that Google is simply
: vindicating what DevDiv has been saying about HTML/JS.
|
|
|
S***k
发帖数: 370 | 21 It is painful to download large JS files to client side too. When we rely on
Javascript more and more, we have to deal with the download speeding issue
later or sooner.
No need to save a losing market (I mean mobile) by pushing down a widely
used technique (I mean SL).
It is ironic that we talk about “cross platform” when we ignore the
browser compatibility issue.
my
too
top
the
also
【在 y*******d 的大作中提到】
: I have the similar thought about js before. But now I have kinda changed my
: mind.
: First, why the heck sinofsky doesn't like C#/SL. A short answer is it's too
: big. Loading a string class will essentially load 500 plus .net types into
: memory which is damn stupid and perf killer. That's why SL is running on top
: of CoreCLR. However, it's still too big if you thinking about running the
: whole windows on tablet/phone.
: Second, why ms embrace html/js now. Apps, to be specific, apps on tablet/
: mobile. We can see a lot of hints that windows 8 is targeted to help on the
: mobile/tablet war. Other than the os itself, the devs who write apps is also
|
y*******d
发帖数: 1765 | 22 If SL is widely used technique, I can not find a word to describe js.
Similar to perf issue, dl speed can be mitigated by compressing or ask user
to install something before use. Also you dont need to dl it every time you
use.
on
issue
【在 S***k 的大作中提到】
: It is painful to download large JS files to client side too. When we rely on
: Javascript more and more, we have to deal with the download speeding issue
: later or sooner.
: No need to save a losing market (I mean mobile) by pushing down a widely
: used technique (I mean SL).
: It is ironic that we talk about “cross platform” when we ignore the
: browser compatibility issue.
:
: my
: too
|
n*********d
发帖数: 302 | 23 其实楼主想说的很简单，就是MS的所有决策都是垃圾，Google的所有决策都是英明。
他压根就不想严肃的考虑技术问题。明白这一点就知道跟他说什么都是没用的。 |
N********n
发帖数: 8363 | 24 A sound tablet strategy doesn't need to embrace H5/JS. A case in point
is iPad. Most popular APPs are done in native iOS. And if performance
is an issue to skip C#/SL then how come an even worse JS is favored. It
makes little sense. |
N********n
发帖数: 8363 | 25
I've been calling Google's ChromeOS and GDocs garbage for a long time.
While they have now finally abandoned the Javascript Titanic, Win/IE
teams are jumping on and declare it a joy ride. Comical but sad & real.
Epic fail.
【在 n*********d 的大作中提到】
: 其实楼主想说的很简单，就是MS的所有决策都是垃圾，Google的所有决策都是英明。
: 他压根就不想严肃的考虑技术问题。明白这一点就知道跟他说什么都是没用的。
|
c****c
发帖数: 605 | 26 Most popular apps are done in native iOS? There are apps on iOS that are not
iOS apps? WTF?
Embracing H5/JS is not due to the superiority of the language but because
there is a HUGE developer following. It's much easier for a seasoned
Javascript developer to start developing Win8 apps right now than for him to
study XAML+C# and then develop Win8 apps.
【在 N********n 的大作中提到】
: A sound tablet strategy doesn't need to embrace H5/JS. A case in point
: is iPad. Most popular APPs are done in native iOS. And if performance
: is an issue to skip C#/SL then how come an even worse JS is favored. It
: makes little sense.
|
N******t
发帖数: 90 | 27 It is a very straight forward thing:
The weak leverage open standard / community voice / cross platform to gain
strength, after become the strong it will go to private route.
Google and Apple are the strong. Microsoft is the weak now. |
b********7
发帖数: 12906 | 28 huh?? WTF?
【在 N******t 的大作中提到】
: It is a very straight forward thing:
: The weak leverage open standard / community voice / cross platform to gain
: strength, after become the strong it will go to private route.
: Google and Apple are the strong. Microsoft is the weak now.
|
