s***i
发帖数: 1363 | 1 Realism About Lin's Free Agency Process
Postby Clyde_Style on Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:24 pm
There is one thing I believe needs some clarification so going forward
people can be clear headed about who was responsible for what transpired
during Lin's free agency process.
Unfortunately, it is convenient for some to blame Lin for things he simply
did not control. It is only fair to him that Knicks fans move on with a fair
picture of what he is truly accountable for and not villianize him
inappropriately.
There some basic facts that are being misinterpreted. These need to be
stressed over gossip if you have any interest in being accurate and fair.
1. The Knicks could only offer a smaller contract based on base salaries
rates and percentage increases that would be significantly smaller than a
contract Lin could get on the open market.
2. The only way the Knicks could pay Lin what a salary in the price range he
was expected to get was by letting him receive offer(s) from other teams
and then matching it.
3. The Knicks could NOT pre-empt this process by offering something like $25
-30M over 3-4 years without Lin getting an offer from elsewhere first. He
had no choice but to solicit a competing bid from another team first.
4. There is no reasonable basis for any fan to claim Lin should have
immediately settled for $10M less by simply signing with the Knicks and
foregoing the free agent process. There is no precedent for this to support
Lin was greedy. He was simply playing according to the rules. If there is
any blame for him having to get an offer first and you need to point fingers
, blame the CBA, not Lin and not the Knicks. They were just going through
the necessary steps dictated by the rules.
5. Lin had the obligation to negotiate in good faith with any team that
expressed interest in him. This means he had to be prepared to play for any
team he negotiated with. Aside from some common misunderstandings about the
technical rules forcing him to do this, the most common misunderstanding is
this: LIN COULD NOT NEGOTIATE WITH ANOTHER TEAM IN BAD FAITH AND USE THEM TO
STAY WITH THE KNICKS.
6. Because he was forced to go into the open market to set his market rate,
Lin had NO CHOICE but to deal honestly with any team bidding for his
services. This transcends sports and is a fundamental tenet of conduct
business, while it is probably unique to sports in how the process puts the
free agent in the middle between a team holding his rights and the need to
solicit a competitive bid from another.
7. Once he enters this process with the other team, basic protocol requires
him, and primarily his agent, to work under the assumption he may actually
be playing for the bidding team and not his former team. He cannot undermine
the bidder. The Rockets were bidding for Lin for themselves and Lin is
required to allow this process to go forward. He cannot undermine the
bidding team by playing footsie with the Knicks under the table. He is
required to deal exclusively with the bidding team until their offer is made.
8. Contrary to repeated statements by some fans, Lin and his agent therefore
have no right nor ability to simultaneously inform the Knicks of the
negotiations with the Rockets. People claiming Lin owed the Knicks an on-
going explanation is false as it is basically illegal.
9. Lin could very much have wanted the Knicks to match, but he had zero
power to influence the outcome as some propose. He could not go behind the
Rockets back to tell the Knicks of impending deals and then communicate back
to the Rockets this would not suit the Knicks. This is beyond absurd. This
is not only impossible, it is completely unethical, so anybody who still
claims Lin was manipulating the situation to force a deal the Knicks would
not match is not dealing with the realities of the process itself.
10. The Houston Rockets needs drove their offer terms, not Lin's personal
needs. To discuss this as if the Rocket's motives were anything other than
placing a winning bid can make it falsely sound like the Rockets were driven
by additional motives such as screwing the Knicks out of spite alone when
the facts are the Rockets calculated they could only place a winning bid by
screwing the Knicks to the hot seat and pushing them too deep into the tax
space to match. This is Houston's doing, not Lin's.
11. There is no basis for saying Lin told Houston their first reported offer
was insufficient and he deceived the Knicks about the actual contract terms
. Houston raising the offer is in no way proof that Lin was conspiring with
the Rockets to not have the Knicks match. Again, Lin could not play one side
against another for his purposes. He had to play ball with the Rockets and
let the Rockets determine their own strategy best regardless of what it mean
to his future with the Knicks.
12. The concept that the Rockets changing the terms of an initial verbal
offer to a higher written offer is dishonorable is false. If there was a
provision stating this was in violation of any NBA rule, then the Rockets
would have been penalized, but it doesn't exist. The Rockets raising the
offer was a competitive business decision designed to win the bid and if
anyone punked the Knicks, it was the Rockets, not Lin or his agent. Lin is
not responsible for a change in offer terms, the Rockets are. Spinning it
like it was is just gossip, not an assertion supported by the process facts
themselves.
13. The Knicks were the vocal element in the market price setting process,
NOT LIN. The Knicks made statements from Woodson and front office sources
they would match any price. Why would they do this? Draw your own
conclusions, but this was not Lin or his agent playing games with the Rocket
's mindset, it was the Knicks. If anybody is responsible for goading the
Rockets into upping their bid, it was the Knicks leaking to the press their
intentions. Lin's intentions were dictated by the free agency process and by
comparison his team kept quiet during it.
14. Therefore, Lin's agent could not go back to the Knicks and inform them
of the Rockets intention to raise their offer. THIS WAS NOT AN OPTION. So
anybody claiming Lin owed the Knicks the courtesy of informing the Knicks of
the Rockets change of game plan simply don't know what they are talking
about. This is not permitted. They had to do business with the Rockets first
and then let the Knicks respond. Period.
15. Contrary to some comments, Lin was required to accept the Rocket's offer
. He was forced by the CBA structure to solicit a market bid for the Knicks
to consider matching. And Lin had only one team making that offer. His hands
were tied. He had to sign Houston's offer and let the Knicks respond.
16. Lin did not have the ability to either keep the Knicks in the loop or
request the Rockets make the terms less difficult for the Knicks to match.
And he could not tip off the Knicks. THIS IS BUSINESS PROCESS, so please
stop spreading lies about what Lin and his agent owed the Knicks as if they
even had that option.
I welcome any clarification, but please use these points for sincere
appraisals of what went done, not fantasies about Lin's loyalty to the
Knicks. He betrayed no one. He went through the same process other free
agents go through all the time and he did it without any drama from his camp
. The only drama came from the Knicks themselves, so don't blame Lin for
this. |
S****Y
发帖数: 4634 | 2 唐僧啊
fair
【在 s***i 的大作中提到】
: Realism About Lin's Free Agency Process
: Postby Clyde_Style on Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:24 pm
: There is one thing I believe needs some clarification so going forward
: people can be clear headed about who was responsible for what transpired
: during Lin's free agency process.
: Unfortunately, it is convenient for some to blame Lin for things he simply
: did not control. It is only fair to him that Knicks fans move on with a fair
: picture of what he is truly accountable for and not villianize him
: inappropriately.
: There some basic facts that are being misinterpreted. These need to be
|
s***i
发帖数: 1363 | 3 闲烦，别回帖，让帖子自然沉不就完了。 我就捞点伪币。
【在 S****Y 的大作中提到】
: 唐僧啊
:
: fair
|
h*****8
发帖数: 4754 | 4 不错，都说到点子上了。
【在 s***i 的大作中提到】
: 闲烦，别回帖，让帖子自然沉不就完了。 我就捞点伪币。
|
s*********d
发帖数: 2406 | 5 两个情况我不明白
第一 尼克斯到底给没给过offer 给Lin 。
按照别人分析 估计3年-4年 1500W-2200W ？
第二，如果Lin 不接受合同会怎样。 尼克斯可以出任何offer 吗？ |
s***i
发帖数: 1363 | 6 好像是这么解释的
1）尼克斯没有给林任何offer， 而是要求林test market。
2）一旦林进入market，尼克斯没有权利提前给林任何offer
3）尼克斯唯一可以做的是match其他球队开出的offer。
4）如果lin不接受他唯一的offer，那林就没有offer，也就没有 market value。尼克
斯只用pay base salary。
If he didn't accept Houston's contract, he would have been forced to accept
NY's 1-year qualifying offer.
The starting PG of the New York Knicks would be making 900k next year. Just
think about that.
【在 s*********d 的大作中提到】
: 两个情况我不明白
: 第一 尼克斯到底给没给过offer 给Lin 。
: 按照别人分析 估计3年-4年 1500W-2200W ？
: 第二，如果Lin 不接受合同会怎样。 尼克斯可以出任何offer 吗？
|
b**j
发帖数: 20742 | 7 knicks can't offer lin because they could only offer minimum. the only way f
or knicks to pay lin more is for lin to get another offer and then match it
【在 s*********d 的大作中提到】
: 两个情况我不明白
: 第一 尼克斯到底给没给过offer 给Lin 。
: 按照别人分析 估计3年-4年 1500W-2200W ？
: 第二，如果Lin 不接受合同会怎样。 尼克斯可以出任何offer 吗？
|
j********1
发帖数: 628 | 8 This guy is wrong. The Knicks could Have offered Lin a Maximum Qualifying
offer using early bird right before June 30, which would be very close to
25M/4years or 17M/3yerars or 11M/2years, Lin probably would have signed it
and remained a Knick. But Knicks only tendered him a standard qualifying
offer, which was only around 1M/1year. That Knicks giving Lin a qualifying
offer before June 30 and Lin not signing it made Lin a restricted free agent
. The rest is history. |
j********1
发帖数: 628 | 9 This guy is wrong. The Knicks could Have offered Lin a Maximum Qualifying
offer using early bird right before June 30, which would be very close to
25M/4years or 17M/3yerars or 11M/2years, Lin probably would have signed it
and remained a Knicks. But Knicks only tendered him a standard qualifying
offer, which was only around 1M/1year. That Knicks giving Lin a qualifying
offer before June 30 and Lin not signing it made Lin a restricted free agent
. The rest is history. |
j****0
发帖数: 1074 | 10 knicks本来可以给lin一个早鸟。3年1500万左右。但是他们没有！！！！！
他们只给了lin一个qualify offer，100万一年。
knicks根本就没真心想要lin，现在为了平息fans的愤怒又来blame林，真他妈恶心。要
是真心想要lin，他们干嘛7月1号自由市场一开，直接去追求老衲，老衲没搞到搞了个
kidd，然后在lin签offer sheet之前，注意是之前，签了肥顿，还签了一个阿根廷老妖
精。屁股的位置需要4人轮换吗？kidd号称还要play 20 minutes and finish the game
，我擦，小林板凳是没坐够吗？ |
|
|
b**j
发帖数: 20742 | 11 学习了
agent
【在 j********1 的大作中提到】
: This guy is wrong. The Knicks could Have offered Lin a Maximum Qualifying
: offer using early bird right before June 30, which would be very close to
: 25M/4years or 17M/3yerars or 11M/2years, Lin probably would have signed it
: and remained a Knicks. But Knicks only tendered him a standard qualifying
: offer, which was only around 1M/1year. That Knicks giving Lin a qualifying
: offer before June 30 and Lin not signing it made Lin a restricted free agent
: . The rest is history.
|
d******n
发帖数: 12850 | 12 Wrong. Knicks can offer lin based on average nba salary which is about $5M/
year, before letting lin goes to open market.
f
it
【在 b**j 的大作中提到】
: knicks can't offer lin because they could only offer minimum. the only way f
: or knicks to pay lin more is for lin to get another offer and then match it
|
i*********r
发帖数: 5101 | 13 This guy was not wrong. You did not read through his article....
You are right. The Knicks could have offered Lin ~24/4, but they did not,
instead they only offered him a qualifying offer to keep him as a RFA, and
let him to test market....
The Knicks is taking a risk that they assume teams would be intimidated by
their determination of signing lin in all cost. It is a gambling move that
they lost.
agent
【在 j********1 的大作中提到】
: This guy is wrong. The Knicks could Have offered Lin a Maximum Qualifying
: offer using early bird right before June 30, which would be very close to
: 25M/4years or 17M/3yerars or 11M/2years, Lin probably would have signed it
: and remained a Knicks. But Knicks only tendered him a standard qualifying
: offer, which was only around 1M/1year. That Knicks giving Lin a qualifying
: offer before June 30 and Lin not signing it made Lin a restricted free agent
: . The rest is history.
|
i*********r
发帖数: 5101 | 14 Nah, the Knicks really wanted Lin back, at least the owner wanted, not sure
about the GM and coach. but their management really messed up... those
Hoosier clan are dumpies.
game
【在 j****0 的大作中提到】
: knicks本来可以给lin一个早鸟。3年1500万左右。但是他们没有！！！！！
: 他们只给了lin一个qualify offer，100万一年。
: knicks根本就没真心想要lin，现在为了平息fans的愤怒又来blame林，真他妈恶心。要
: 是真心想要lin，他们干嘛7月1号自由市场一开，直接去追求老衲，老衲没搞到搞了个
: kidd，然后在lin签offer sheet之前，注意是之前，签了肥顿，还签了一个阿根廷老妖
: 精。屁股的位置需要4人轮换吗？kidd号称还要play 20 minutes and finish the game
: ，我擦，小林板凳是没坐够吗？
|
d******n
发帖数: 12850 | 15 这正好说明了knicks想通过市场+自己的操控来以小于24/4的合同签下林，愿赌服输，
只不过Knicks不愿意承认罢了。
【在 i*********r 的大作中提到】
: This guy was not wrong. You did not read through his article....
: You are right. The Knicks could have offered Lin ~24/4, but they did not,
: instead they only offered him a qualifying offer to keep him as a RFA, and
: let him to test market....
: The Knicks is taking a risk that they assume teams would be intimidated by
: their determination of signing lin in all cost. It is a gambling move that
: they lost.
:
: agent
|
s*********d
发帖数: 2406 | 16 总结起来，
从 let lin goes to Open market 开始，
就注定Lin 要离开knicks
因为lux tax cap ， knicks 的选择很有限。
既然 500m/1y 都不愿意花。
match 更像是敷衍。 因为只要是offer 肯定不止这一个价。
所以 knicks 只能赌 没有offer。
这几率还是比较低的。 |
T***c
发帖数: 17256 | 17 NYK给过qualifying offer？ 没看见报道啊
互换理想妹对此来个总结性发言 |
i********c
发帖数: 7033 | 18 给过的,有报道,不过没有说金额多少, 估计只是按去年工资的150%吧.
否则的话,lin就正式成为free agent了,ny只有先给了qualifying offer ,才能保留
匹配权.
【在 T***c 的大作中提到】
: NYK给过qualifying offer？ 没看见报道啊
: 互换理想妹对此来个总结性发言
|
i*********r
发帖数: 5101 | 19 其实如果rockets没出现pg危机的话，knicks的算计真的要成功了，18.8／3 years, 就
跟knicks预计的没差多少。但他们没看到rockets的新变化。james dolan就是个义气用
事的公子哥，比较听他认为懂行的 Isiah Thomas和他的同伙们的意见，包括GM和木耳
。这些人本身就不太看好小林在以瓜为中心的作用，但也不会认为林就是个bust。所以
待价而估，也正好顺水推舟。
【在 d******n 的大作中提到】
: 这正好说明了knicks想通过市场+自己的操控来以小于24/4的合同签下林，愿赌服输，
: 只不过Knicks不愿意承认罢了。
|
i*********r
发帖数: 5101 | 20 在补充一点，我估计在火箭offer出来和木耳声称一定匹配这段，小林的心理也起了变
化，可能从想留knicks到两可。
【在 i*********r 的大作中提到】
: 其实如果rockets没出现pg危机的话，knicks的算计真的要成功了，18.8／3 years, 就
: 跟knicks预计的没差多少。但他们没看到rockets的新变化。james dolan就是个义气用
: 事的公子哥，比较听他认为懂行的 Isiah Thomas和他的同伙们的意见，包括GM和木耳
: 。这些人本身就不太看好小林在以瓜为中心的作用，但也不会认为林就是个bust。所以
: 待价而估，也正好顺水推舟。
|
|
|
s***i
发帖数: 1363 | 21 如果没有火箭出来搅和， lin最后真没准就没有offer。 回去还不让纽约的GM恶心死。
【在 i*********r 的大作中提到】
: 其实如果rockets没出现pg危机的话，knicks的算计真的要成功了，18.8／3 years, 就
: 跟knicks预计的没差多少。但他们没看到rockets的新变化。james dolan就是个义气用
: 事的公子哥，比较听他认为懂行的 Isiah Thomas和他的同伙们的意见，包括GM和木耳
: 。这些人本身就不太看好小林在以瓜为中心的作用，但也不会认为林就是个bust。所以
: 待价而估，也正好顺水推舟。
|
T*******i
发帖数: 4992 | 22 火箭没有pg危机，说明猛龙需要林
不可能成功的
【在 i*********r 的大作中提到】
: 其实如果rockets没出现pg危机的话，knicks的算计真的要成功了，18.8／3 years, 就
: 跟knicks预计的没差多少。但他们没看到rockets的新变化。james dolan就是个义气用
: 事的公子哥，比较听他认为懂行的 Isiah Thomas和他的同伙们的意见，包括GM和木耳
: 。这些人本身就不太看好小林在以瓜为中心的作用，但也不会认为林就是个bust。所以
: 待价而估，也正好顺水推舟。
|
T***c
发帖数: 17256 | 23 对哦，妈的，我还以为那个qualifying是500万的样子，搞错了，副主席起薪太低
【在 i********c 的大作中提到】
: 给过的,有报道,不过没有说金额多少, 估计只是按去年工资的150%吧.
: 否则的话,lin就正式成为free agent了,ny只有先给了qualifying offer ,才能保留
: 匹配权.
|
i*********r
发帖数: 5101 | 24 不会，小林能打出来。
。
【在 s***i 的大作中提到】
: 如果没有火箭出来搅和， lin最后真没准就没有offer。 回去还不让纽约的GM恶心死。
|
T*******i
发帖数: 4992 | 25 那点钱，太恶心人了
【在 i*********r 的大作中提到】
: 不会，小林能打出来。
:
: 。
|
i*********r
发帖数: 5101 | 26 1， 猛龙GM不是Morey, 猛龙也不会象houston这么懂小林的价值。
2， 火箭确实是pg危机，lowry是人心不在了，非走不可了，抓髻又没留住。小步差点
就回来了。
【在 T*******i 的大作中提到】
: 火箭没有pg危机，说明猛龙需要林
: 不可能成功的
|
T*******i
发帖数: 4992 | 27 其实现在看，$28M/4的offer nyk都不想匹配
【在 i*********r 的大作中提到】
: 1， 猛龙GM不是Morey, 猛龙也不会象houston这么懂小林的价值。
: 2， 火箭确实是pg危机，lowry是人心不在了，非走不可了，抓髻又没留住。小步差点
: 就回来了。
|
j****0
发帖数: 1074 | 28 raps如果没搞定lowry，肯定会给lin开一个不错的合同。起码应该跟妃子的差不多
多伦多的亚裔市场可不是闹着玩的。raps的gm也有脑子。 |
i**T
发帖数: 3441 | 29 急吼吼的签基德、堪比，把最后一点操作空间都搞没了，被火箭坑一把一点都不怨。
【在 i*********r 的大作中提到】
: 其实如果rockets没出现pg危机的话，knicks的算计真的要成功了，18.8／3 years, 就
: 跟knicks预计的没差多少。但他们没看到rockets的新变化。james dolan就是个义气用
: 事的公子哥，比较听他认为懂行的 Isiah Thomas和他的同伙们的意见，包括GM和木耳
: 。这些人本身就不太看好小林在以瓜为中心的作用，但也不会认为林就是个bust。所以
: 待价而估，也正好顺水推舟。
|
i********c
发帖数: 7033 | 30 我倒是觉得ny不至于觉得这么便宜就能拿下lin，不过纽约能接受的价钱可能是500-
600w/year 左右。
至于当时，没有用鸟权直接把lin留下来的原因，还是可能因为nash 。因为纽约没有
薪金空间了，要追nash只能先签后换，又怕换的筹码太阳不满意。所以希望暂时把工资
总额控制在奢侈税以下吧，这样就能保留中产（5M/YEAR）。还可以用中产追一追。
（对于超过奢侈税线的球队，只有mini中产 3M/YEAR）
【在 T***c 的大作中提到】
: 对哦，妈的，我还以为那个qualifying是500万的样子，搞错了，副主席起薪太低
|
|
|
s***i
发帖数: 1363 | 31 They extended him the 1-year qualifying offer, which would have been
something like 950k.
【在 T***c 的大作中提到】
: 对哦，妈的，我还以为那个qualifying是500万的样子，搞错了，副主席起薪太低
|
k******a
发帖数: 2436 | 32 Early bird right means lin's current year salary is not counted toward the
cap. So it has nothing to do with the remaining cap when signing Nash nor
MLE.
【在 i********c 的大作中提到】
: 我倒是觉得ny不至于觉得这么便宜就能拿下lin，不过纽约能接受的价钱可能是500-
: 600w/year 左右。
: 至于当时，没有用鸟权直接把lin留下来的原因，还是可能因为nash 。因为纽约没有
: 薪金空间了，要追nash只能先签后换，又怕换的筹码太阳不满意。所以希望暂时把工资
: 总额控制在奢侈税以下吧，这样就能保留中产（5M/YEAR）。还可以用中产追一追。
: （对于超过奢侈税线的球队，只有mini中产 3M/YEAR）
|
i********c
发帖数: 7033 | 33 林的工资不受salary cap的限制，但是他的工资要计入payroll里，也就会反过来影
响ny的salary cap。
早鸟的意思是，即使纽约全队的工资(payproll)超过salary cap了，也可以用早鸟
签lin（早鸟是特例）。但是，一旦在6月30号之前用这个特例签了lin，（即大家说的
offer给他2400w/4years）. 那么在7月11号，自由市场开放前，lin的工资 500-600w/
year ，就计入了ny的payroll里面了。
而一旦ny的payroll过了奢侈税线，就没有中产，只有mini中产了。
（不知道我说清楚了没有。。。）
【在 k******a 的大作中提到】
: Early bird right means lin's current year salary is not counted toward the
: cap. So it has nothing to do with the remaining cap when signing Nash nor
: MLE.
|
d******n
发帖数: 12850 | 34 就是说7月11号前NY的payroll没过奢侈税线，那现在NY的payroll过了奢侈税线没有？
新签了这么多人。
lin
offer
【在 i********c 的大作中提到】
: 林的工资不受salary cap的限制，但是他的工资要计入payroll里，也就会反过来影
: 响ny的salary cap。
: 早鸟的意思是，即使纽约全队的工资(payproll)超过salary cap了，也可以用早鸟
: 签lin（早鸟是特例）。但是，一旦在6月30号之前用这个特例签了lin，（即大家说的
: offer给他2400w/4years）. 那么在7月11号，自由市场开放前，lin的工资 500-600w/
: year ，就计入了ny的payroll里面了。
:
: 而一旦ny的payroll过了奢侈税线，就没有中产，只有mini中产了。
: （不知道我说清楚了没有。。。）
|
i********c
发帖数: 7033 | 35 可是nash不是7月4号就跟湖人定了么 ？
纽约是在7月4号之后，才弄得其他的人的合同的。
【在 d******n 的大作中提到】
: 就是说7月11号前NY的payroll没过奢侈税线，那现在NY的payroll过了奢侈税线没有？
: 新签了这么多人。
:
: lin
: offer
|
d******n
发帖数: 12850 | 36 我知道，我就是问问。纽约现在用了中产了没有？用了中产之后，要是后来过了奢侈税
线咋办？
【在 i********c 的大作中提到】
: 可是nash不是7月4号就跟湖人定了么 ？
: 纽约是在7月4号之后，才弄得其他的人的合同的。
:
|
s***i
发帖数: 1363 | 37 这个解释的挺清楚的。 纽约从来就没有培养新人的习惯， 一心要挖大牌，多老都行。
【在 i********c 的大作中提到】
: 可是nash不是7月4号就跟湖人定了么 ？
: 纽约是在7月4号之后，才弄得其他的人的合同的。
:
|
i********c
发帖数: 7033 | 38 你记得7月4号，nash定了湖人之后。
纽约给的kidd是300w么（当时还有中产500w，不过纽约给的是mini中产的价格），就
是说，那一刻就没打算控制薪金在奢侈税了吧。
不过，以上是我的猜测，随便说说。。。请勿打脸～～～
我还是觉得，ny对lin的兴趣，的确也就是想捡个便宜。所以，lin去火箭，能被当做
至少核心之一，有球权还能被重点培养，是件很好的事情，我觉得很好啊。。。
【在 d******n 的大作中提到】
: 就是说7月11号前NY的payroll没过奢侈税线，那现在NY的payroll过了奢侈税线没有？
: 新签了这么多人。
:
: lin
: offer
|
k******a
发帖数: 2436 | 39 Sorry I think you might be wrong (I could be wrong too).
Lin will always have $5m (or the MLE) counted toward the cap no matter if he
signs or not. See http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q38
In this case if Lin is not signed before 6/30, NYK has a $5m "cap hold" that
reduce their cap by $5m. If Lin is signed at $5m for this year, the NYK cap
will be exactly the same.
【在 i********c 的大作中提到】
: 你记得7月4号，nash定了湖人之后。
: 纽约给的kidd是300w么（当时还有中产500w，不过纽约给的是mini中产的价格），就
: 是说，那一刻就没打算控制薪金在奢侈税了吧。
:
: 不过，以上是我的猜测，随便说说。。。请勿打脸～～～
: 我还是觉得，ny对lin的兴趣，的确也就是想捡个便宜。所以，lin去火箭，能被当做
: 至少核心之一，有球权还能被重点培养，是件很好的事情，我觉得很好啊。。。
|
i********c
发帖数: 7033 | 40 纽约已经没有中产了。
我记得是中产直接变mini中产（这个不确定，我在虎扑上看过人说的），当时还有
个笑话是说谁坐在飞机上，年薪500w直接变成300w了。。。不过，这个应该要球队自己
去计算好的吧？
不过，我也没想到ny后来这么狂签人，我以为他们会跟miami一样，追到nash/kidd
后，就用底薪修修补补了。。。（所以，当时还以为他们能把薪金控制在奢侈税下呢）
所以，我说ny能接受的lin的价格，应该也就500w左右了一年了。。。当然，后来索
性过了奢侈线了，就可能提高到500+500+900 左右 ？
【在 d******n 的大作中提到】
: 我知道，我就是问问。纽约现在用了中产了没有？用了中产之后，要是后来过了奢侈税
: 线咋办？
|
|
|
n******r
发帖数: 718 | 41 NY's over the cap between 7/1 and 7/11, so they could offer Nash or Kidd
only mini-MLE if not sign-and-trade.
When they gave Lin and Fields qualifying offer, their theoretical maximum
salaries were added to actual payroll until their statuses settled.
【在 d******n 的大作中提到】
: 就是说7月11号前NY的payroll没过奢侈税线，那现在NY的payroll过了奢侈税线没有？
: 新签了这么多人。
:
: lin
: offer
|
i********c
发帖数: 7033 | 42 really ? i really don't know about this.
I may be wrong...
if this is the case , everyone just ignore what i said earlier...
【在 n******r 的大作中提到】
: NY's over the cap between 7/1 and 7/11, so they could offer Nash or Kidd
: only mini-MLE if not sign-and-trade.
: When they gave Lin and Fields qualifying offer, their theoretical maximum
: salaries were added to actual payroll until their statuses settled.
|
n******r
发帖数: 718 | 43 that is also why Bulls are tied up by the Asik offer they have not even seen
, so they are over the cap and could only use mini-MLE. |
d******n
发帖数: 12850 | 44 那就是说即使7/1前NY没有跟他们签约，7/1开始他们两人还是各算了理论上的5M进入NY
的salary，然后超过了58M的cap了？
【在 n******r 的大作中提到】
: NY's over the cap between 7/1 and 7/11, so they could offer Nash or Kidd
: only mini-MLE if not sign-and-trade.
: When they gave Lin and Fields qualifying offer, their theoretical maximum
: salaries were added to actual payroll until their statuses settled.
|
i********c
发帖数: 7033 | 45 是吗？ 不好意思，这个我还真的不知道。。。我默认为lin只有qualifying offer的
话，就只按照qualifying offer的金额算呢，按max算的话，ny的确怎么都是超的。
我不丢人了，大家请直接忽略我前面的胡乱猜测~~~
he
that
cap
【在 k******a 的大作中提到】
: Sorry I think you might be wrong (I could be wrong too).
: Lin will always have $5m (or the MLE) counted toward the cap no matter if he
: signs or not. See http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q38
: In this case if Lin is not signed before 6/30, NYK has a $5m "cap hold" that
: reduce their cap by $5m. If Lin is signed at $5m for this year, the NYK cap
: will be exactly the same.
|
d******n
发帖数: 12850 | 46 火箭给或者没给Asik offer，公牛不都会给占用掉5M的空间么？为什么会 not seen？
seen
【在 n******r 的大作中提到】
: that is also why Bulls are tied up by the Asik offer they have not even seen
: , so they are over the cap and could only use mini-MLE.
|
n******r
发帖数: 718 | 47 historically, these rules are there to prevent teams from using cap space to
sign other team's free agents then sign their own ones above the cap. |
d******n
发帖数: 12850 | 48 木事，你不提出来讨论，大家还不知有这回事呢。
【在 i********c 的大作中提到】
: 是吗？ 不好意思，这个我还真的不知道。。。我默认为lin只有qualifying offer的
: 话，就只按照qualifying offer的金额算呢，按max算的话，ny的确怎么都是超的。
: 我不丢人了，大家请直接忽略我前面的胡乱猜测~~~
:
: he
: that
: cap
|
n******r
发帖数: 718 | 49 pretty sure. :-)
NY
【在 d******n 的大作中提到】
: 那就是说即使7/1前NY没有跟他们签约，7/1开始他们两人还是各算了理论上的5M进入NY
: 的salary，然后超过了58M的cap了？
|
i********c
发帖数: 7033 | 50 他是指 offer by rockets ？
【在 d******n 的大作中提到】
: 火箭给或者没给Asik offer，公牛不都会给占用掉5M的空间么？为什么会 not seen？
:
: seen
|
|
|
n******r
发帖数: 718 | 51 sorry did not say clearly. Bulls had given him qualifying offer, and
therefore is over the cap. But Asik's offer is not delivered to Bulls yet.
That's what I meant. :-)
【在 d******n 的大作中提到】
: 火箭给或者没给Asik offer，公牛不都会给占用掉5M的空间么？为什么会 not seen？
:
: seen
|
n******r
发帖数: 718 | 52 yes. Thanks.
【在 i********c 的大作中提到】
: 他是指 offer by rockets ？
|
i********c
发帖数: 7033 | 53 你说了我才想起来，2010年莱利同学的大手笔清空热队全队人的操作中。
最后，为了腾出0.3M的空间，裁掉了james johns，jj放弃了鸟权。我当时还没看懂
，为啥这样能省出来空间呢，不过也没深究。。。
to
【在 n******r 的大作中提到】
: historically, these rules are there to prevent teams from using cap space to
: sign other team's free agents then sign their own ones above the cap.
|
d******n
发帖数: 12850 | 54 这个理论最高薪资是怎么算出来的？下面这个例子，里德的6M明显不是max啊？
in 2005 Michael Redd's free agent amount was just $6 million, even though
the Bucks intended to re-sign him for the maximum salary. By waiting to sign
Redd last, the Bucks were able to take advantage of the difference by
signing Bobby Simmons. Had they signed Redd first, they would not have had
enough cap room to sign Simmons.
【在 n******r 的大作中提到】
: NY's over the cap between 7/1 and 7/11, so they could offer Nash or Kidd
: only mini-MLE if not sign-and-trade.
: When they gave Lin and Fields qualifying offer, their theoretical maximum
: salaries were added to actual payroll until their statuses settled.
|
d******n
发帖数: 12850 | 55 看来放弃鸟权能节省空间。鸟权虽然能突破空间，但是不能误解为不占空间。
【在 i********c 的大作中提到】
: 你说了我才想起来，2010年莱利同学的大手笔清空热队全队人的操作中。
: 最后，为了腾出0.3M的空间，裁掉了james johns，jj放弃了鸟权。我当时还没看懂
: ，为啥这样能省出来空间呢，不过也没深究。。。
:
:
: to
|
n******r
发帖数: 718 | 56 sorry not sure. But I think redd was ufa with bird right, so no qualifying
offer problem involved.
sign
【在 d******n 的大作中提到】
: 这个理论最高薪资是怎么算出来的？下面这个例子，里德的6M明显不是max啊？
: in 2005 Michael Redd's free agent amount was just $6 million, even though
: the Bucks intended to re-sign him for the maximum salary. By waiting to sign
: Redd last, the Bucks were able to take advantage of the difference by
: signing Bobby Simmons. Had they signed Redd first, they would not have had
: enough cap room to sign Simmons.
|
k******a
发帖数: 2436 | 57 Asik's cap hold is only 130% of prev year salary, should be less than 3m,
definitely not 5m.
But Bulls have so many 10m+ contracts they are already over the cap.
【在 d******n 的大作中提到】
: 火箭给或者没给Asik offer，公牛不都会给占用掉5M的空间么？为什么会 not seen？
:
: seen
|
i********c
发帖数: 7033 | 58 那asik的 cap hold为啥不是max 5M 左右?
那lin的cap hold是不是也只是 130% of previous year salary ?
【在 k******a 的大作中提到】
: Asik's cap hold is only 130% of prev year salary, should be less than 3m,
: definitely not 5m.
: But Bulls have so many 10m+ contracts they are already over the cap.
|
d******n
发帖数: 12850 | 59 cap hold是130% of previous year salary 不是前面说的max？那就是说Lin和Fields
的hold也就是各1.5M左右而已？而不是5M？
【在 k******a 的大作中提到】
: Asik's cap hold is only 130% of prev year salary, should be less than 3m,
: definitely not 5m.
: But Bulls have so many 10m+ contracts they are already over the cap.
|
d******n
发帖数: 12850 | 60 哈哈
【在 i********c 的大作中提到】
: 那asik的 cap hold为啥不是max 5M 左右?
: 那lin的cap hold是不是也只是 130% of previous year salary ?
:
|
|
|
k******a
发帖数: 2436 | 61 Max number is also dependent on the player's playing years.
What this paragraph said is if Bucks first offer Redd max (say 15m) they
will not be able to sign Simmons after that. Instead, they sign Simmons
first (while Redd's cap impact is only 6m) then they sign Redd using the
bird right because Redd is their own free agent. So the order of the signing
matters due to bird right
sign
【在 d******n 的大作中提到】
: 这个理论最高薪资是怎么算出来的？下面这个例子，里德的6M明显不是max啊？
: in 2005 Michael Redd's free agent amount was just $6 million, even though
: the Bucks intended to re-sign him for the maximum salary. By waiting to sign
: Redd last, the Bucks were able to take advantage of the difference by
: signing Bobby Simmons. Had they signed Redd first, they would not have had
: enough cap room to sign Simmons.
|
k******a
发帖数: 2436 | 62 I think the difference is Lin/Fields are under rookie scale contract. Asik
is not.
【在 i********c 的大作中提到】
: 那asik的 cap hold为啥不是max 5M 左右?
: 那lin的cap hold是不是也只是 130% of previous year salary ?
:
|
d******n
发帖数: 12850 | 63 哦，asik选秀后过了2年才签的约，可能是这个原因
【在 k******a 的大作中提到】
: I think the difference is Lin/Fields are under rookie scale contract. Asik
: is not.
|
d******n
发帖数: 12850 | 64 看来是因为Redd那时候是第五年，占的是150% of his previous salary2
只有下列两种情况才会出现占用max。（归根到底还是因为这两种情况的max只是在mid-
level而已，因为Arenas条款的缘故）
Early Bird, following the second season of his rookie scale contract
Larry Bird, following the third season of his rookie scale contract
qualifying
【在 n******r 的大作中提到】
: sorry not sure. But I think redd was ufa with bird right, so no qualifying
: offer problem involved.
:
: sign
|
i********c
发帖数: 7033 | 65 我也看到了，好多种情况啊 。。。
还有最后比较free agent amount和另外2项的大小。取最大值占用空间。。。
A restricted free agent is included in team salary by the greatest of:
His free agent amount (as defined in the table above)
The amount of his qualifying offer (see question number 43)
The first-year salary in a first refusal exercise notice (a notice given
to the player that the team is exercising its right of first refusal by
matching an offer sheet
mid-
【在 d******n 的大作中提到】
: 看来是因为Redd那时候是第五年，占的是150% of his previous salary2
: 只有下列两种情况才会出现占用max。（归根到底还是因为这两种情况的max只是在mid-
: level而已，因为Arenas条款的缘故）
: Early Bird, following the second season of his rookie scale contract
: Larry Bird, following the third season of his rookie scale contract
:
: qualifying
|
g***e
发帖数: 4074 | 66 这次林，诺瓦克这个早鸟权也很周折
本来6月中旬仲裁结果是支持被裁球员的早鸟权的，但是NBA表态要上诉。所以说原则上
是定了，但不排除被最终上诉推翻。NBA似乎是在6月30号跟球员工会达成妥协不在寻求
上诉。
按照这个过程，我认为，尼克斯在仲裁结束的6月中旬就有林的早鸟权了，也就是说那
个时候他们就可以给林一个四年20+M的合同（据说是可以到4年25M），但是他们没有这
么做。后面NBA的‘寻求上诉’以及‘取消上诉’这些事情虽然是drama，但都没有最终
达到法律的层面。林的早鸟权在6月中旬就摆在尼克斯的桌子上了。
退一万步讲，即使NBA官方由于希望上诉而hold住了这个仲裁结果。那6月30号当天随着
NBA的取消上诉，这个早鸟权也可以实施了。虽然是在最后一分钟，但如果纽约有准备
给林这么一份合同，也是有足够时间去操作的。
所以，只有两种情况：一是纽约觉得林不可能接受4年25M的合同；二是纽约从一开始就
不认为林值5M一年！个人觉得第二种情况更可能。大家都是聪明人，明着说支持你去自
由市场看一看，实际上还是觉得你不值这个价。因为，即使小林不接受4年25M的合同，
选择去了自由市场，他的RFA的身份还是没变，纽约还是掌握主动权的：Match其他球队
的offer就能留下林。
我的感觉是，林在休斯敦拿第一个非正式报价（4年28.8M而且第四年球队选项）的时候
，纽约就知道自己傻逼了。但是，由于这个报价还是纽约可以忍受的程度范围内，纽约
打肿脸充胖子，说出‘up to 1B’的话来，其实是急于安抚小林。因为只有纽约自己明
白，他们从一开始就没看好小林能拿这么样的合同回来。到了正式报价的时候，纽约可
真的是难受啊，多兰是彻底恼羞成怒了——一会儿玩‘躲猫猫’，一会儿寻求交易费尔
顿。
不管纽约是不是真心想留林，他们在这个game中彻底地被莫雷给羞辱了。其主要决策人
的智商再一次被赤裸裸地暴露在大众面前。
agent
【在 j********1 的大作中提到】
: This guy is wrong. The Knicks could Have offered Lin a Maximum Qualifying
: offer using early bird right before June 30, which would be very close to
: 25M/4years or 17M/3yerars or 11M/2years, Lin probably would have signed it
: and remained a Knicks. But Knicks only tendered him a standard qualifying
: offer, which was only around 1M/1year. That Knicks giving Lin a qualifying
: offer before June 30 and Lin not signing it made Lin a restricted free agent
: . The rest is history.
|
s*******i
发帖数: 12823 | 67 先给Novak那么个大合同就已经是奇葩中的奇葩了，看来他们觉得Novak远比林重要，哈哈
【在 g***e 的大作中提到】
: 这次林，诺瓦克这个早鸟权也很周折
: 本来6月中旬仲裁结果是支持被裁球员的早鸟权的，但是NBA表态要上诉。所以说原则上
: 是定了，但不排除被最终上诉推翻。NBA似乎是在6月30号跟球员工会达成妥协不在寻求
: 上诉。
: 按照这个过程，我认为，尼克斯在仲裁结束的6月中旬就有林的早鸟权了，也就是说那
: 个时候他们就可以给林一个四年20+M的合同（据说是可以到4年25M），但是他们没有这
: 么做。后面NBA的‘寻求上诉’以及‘取消上诉’这些事情虽然是drama，但都没有最终
: 达到法律的层面。林的早鸟权在6月中旬就摆在尼克斯的桌子上了。
: 退一万步讲，即使NBA官方由于希望上诉而hold住了这个仲裁结果。那6月30号当天随着
: NBA的取消上诉，这个早鸟权也可以实施了。虽然是在最后一分钟，但如果纽约有准备
|
g***e
发帖数: 4074 | 68 那是他们太老实了
其实说到位一点是尼克斯傻逼了
都没见到过林official的报价就撒了欢儿似地花钱
哈哈
【在 s*******i 的大作中提到】
: 先给Novak那么个大合同就已经是奇葩中的奇葩了，看来他们觉得Novak远比林重要，哈哈
|
N*****m
发帖数: 42603 | 69 不是老实
尼克斯需要一个三分投手，而林不在他们的计划里
【在 g***e 的大作中提到】
: 那是他们太老实了
: 其实说到位一点是尼克斯傻逼了
: 都没见到过林official的报价就撒了欢儿似地花钱
:
: 哈哈
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m*****g
发帖数: 12253 | 70 其实就是ny没有诚意拉，以为可以剪个漏，不然早就该有个offer摆上桌阿，
话说回来，篮球角度而言，lin还是不适合继续呆在ny，所以结果对大家都好，
主要后面dolan出来low level的讲话，想给自己挽回点面子，更怕lin今年火了，
到时候ny的球迷加毒蛇媒体还不把他啃了，现在说林背叛，想给将来留余地。。【 在
guoke (生命的意义) 的大作中提到: 】 |
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F**********y
发帖数: 10265 | 71 就是说给novak合同的时候还没想到过林至少是中产或者中产以上的合同是吧
棋输一招, 这也怪不得别人了
【在 g***e 的大作中提到】
: 那是他们太老实了
: 其实说到位一点是尼克斯傻逼了
: 都没见到过林official的报价就撒了欢儿似地花钱
:
: 哈哈
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a******s
发帖数: 4052 | 72 杜兰最sb的是明明不愿意留住林，却想不出一个充分利用林剩余价值的方法。白白放走
了未来的全明星。 至于看人看走眼，那是常态。 |
