T****i
发帖数: 15191 | 1 Now you faculty members want to stand on a moral high ground?
What I saw was often opposite. Many faculty members, instead of postdocs or
graduate students, are more likely to be unethical. When I was a postdoc, we
had ethics trainings many times a year, while many postdocs agreed that
professors should spend some time to go to the trainings as well, because
they really did not show better, responsible research behavior. The ways
they took others' credits, the ways they treat postdocs or students, and the
ways they mold their data into their stories, make them anything but good
ethical role models to postdocs and students. Of course you can say that
those are only a small percentage of the faculty. However, if that is the
case, you would not expect that "47 out of 53 landmark publications"
produced by academic researchers cannot be validated by big Pharms. At least
when industrial researchers approach the corresponding authors of those
papers, these authors could have re-examined their data carefully and either
rebuffed the allegations or retracted the papers. Yet, neither has happened
. Those papers are still touted as the best, landmark studies, and those
authors still enjoy their prestige.
"47 out of 53". Ladies and gentlemen, after this, I want to say to those
faculty members and many others alike: Shame on you! |
M*****n
发帖数: 16729 | 2 问一下，big pharms 的科研能力跟academia,到底谁厉害？ |
w***r
发帖数: 709 | 3 second this.
Those kind of things also kill the scientific career of many real talents
who just refuse to insult themselves and hold their dignity.
it is OK for people to build their own social networks to survive, which is
actually more important than science itself.
or
we
the
【在 T****i 的大作中提到】
: Now you faculty members want to stand on a moral high ground?
: What I saw was often opposite. Many faculty members, instead of postdocs or
: graduate students, are more likely to be unethical. When I was a postdoc, we
: had ethics trainings many times a year, while many postdocs agreed that
: professors should spend some time to go to the trainings as well, because
: they really did not show better, responsible research behavior. The ways
: they took others' credits, the ways they treat postdocs or students, and the
: ways they mold their data into their stories, make them anything but good
: ethical role models to postdocs and students. Of course you can say that
: those are only a small percentage of the faculty. However, if that is the
|
w***r
发帖数: 709 | 4 big pharms need to find something useful to make money.
at most of the time, academic need big papers to get grant renewed.
different motivation generates different result.
【在 M*****n 的大作中提到】
: 问一下，big pharms 的科研能力跟academia,到底谁厉害？
|
g*********r
发帖数: 2033 | 5 你首先要定义，什么叫科研能力，因为这个对pharms 和 academia 来说目标是不同的
到底是以文章为标准，还是以啥为标准
【在 M*****n 的大作中提到】
: 问一下，big pharms 的科研能力跟academia,到底谁厉害？
|
T****i
发帖数: 15191 | 6 Even big pharms are not as good as academia, for most biomedical research,
they still have the ability to validate data. In fact, many big pharms are
quite innovative, more than most academic groups.
【在 M*****n 的大作中提到】
: 问一下，big pharms 的科研能力跟academia,到底谁厉害？
|
S**********e
发帖数: 1789 | 7 你写的还是哪看来的？
or
we
the
【在 T****i 的大作中提到】
: Now you faculty members want to stand on a moral high ground?
: What I saw was often opposite. Many faculty members, instead of postdocs or
: graduate students, are more likely to be unethical. When I was a postdoc, we
: had ethics trainings many times a year, while many postdocs agreed that
: professors should spend some time to go to the trainings as well, because
: they really did not show better, responsible research behavior. The ways
: they took others' credits, the ways they treat postdocs or students, and the
: ways they mold their data into their stories, make them anything but good
: ethical role models to postdocs and students. Of course you can say that
: those are only a small percentage of the faculty. However, if that is the
|
T****i
发帖数: 15191 | 8 I have a high moral standard for myself. Anything I copied will be noted as
"ZT", and anything I cited will be double quoted. In research, in life.
【在 S**********e 的大作中提到】
: 你写的还是哪看来的？
:
: or
: we
: the
|
w***r
发帖数: 709 | 9 Man, you are stubborn but so cool!
as
【在 T****i 的大作中提到】
: I have a high moral standard for myself. Anything I copied will be noted as
: "ZT", and anything I cited will be double quoted. In research, in life.
|
y******8
发帖数: 1764 | 10 Interesting statement.
"47 out of 53 landmark publications"
Ref please!
or
we
the
【在 T****i 的大作中提到】
: Now you faculty members want to stand on a moral high ground?
: What I saw was often opposite. Many faculty members, instead of postdocs or
: graduate students, are more likely to be unethical. When I was a postdoc, we
: had ethics trainings many times a year, while many postdocs agreed that
: professors should spend some time to go to the trainings as well, because
: they really did not show better, responsible research behavior. The ways
: they took others' credits, the ways they treat postdocs or students, and the
: ways they mold their data into their stories, make them anything but good
: ethical role models to postdocs and students. Of course you can say that
: those are only a small percentage of the faculty. However, if that is the
|
|
|
w***r
发帖数: 709 | 11 生物里面骗子可真不少
http://news.yahoo.com/cancer-science-many-discoveries-dont-hold
from kayaker
【在 y******8 的大作中提到】
: Interesting statement.
: "47 out of 53 landmark publications"
: Ref please!
:
: or
: we
: the
|
y******8
发帖数: 1764 | 12 Big pharms' research capability is enormous, but much less motivated.
Therefore, the output of Big pharms' R is a joke now.
I think the trend would be that big pharms buy patents from start-ups and
academia, and hire CRO for downstream R&D.
【在 M*****n 的大作中提到】
: 问一下，big pharms 的科研能力跟academia,到底谁厉害？
|
y******8
发帖数: 1764 | 13 Sorry, the mainstream media is even less accountable than research
publication.
Any direct evidence?
【在 w***r 的大作中提到】
: 生物里面骗子可真不少
: http://news.yahoo.com/cancer-science-many-discoveries-dont-hold
: from kayaker
|
w***r
发帖数: 709 | 14 they have a communication published in Nature.
google it with author's name
【在 y******8 的大作中提到】
: Sorry, the mainstream media is even less accountable than research
: publication.
: Any direct evidence?
|
y******8
发帖数: 1764 | 15 The announcement came from Glenn Begley of Amgen. I would like to wait for
their research results published.
Papers disapproving Sirtuins were published in Nature and JBC as real
scientific publication, not just some blog buzz.
If this case goes into the similar situation of Sirtuins, I would nor be
suprised, neither be bothered by the inconsistency. Remember, self-correct
is a part of scientific research.
Still, dissapointed by LZ's failure to provide hard evidence.
【在 w***r 的大作中提到】
: they have a communication published in Nature.
: google it with author's name
|
T****i
发帖数: 15191 | 16 I want to add another point here:
We all know there are a lot of problems in academic research community. It
is time to face these problems, so that we can regain trust and respect from
the public. It is definitely not the time to defend an already tarnished
reputation out of simple reflex. If the scientific community cannot correct
its own wrong doings, outside forces including taxpayers and mass media have
the right to intervene. After all, we receive fundings from taxpayer's
money.
Therefore, I completely disagree with ym.
【在 w***r 的大作中提到】
: they have a communication published in Nature.
: google it with author's name
|
D*a
发帖数: 6830 | 17 Nature那篇后面也有大牛支持，大牛跟其他大牛关系也很好，成天飞来飞去互相邀请
talk和其他事宜。我记得貌似大牛是倒数二作还是什么，反正占了个座，倒数一作跟大
牛关系紧密，很多合作，自己的实验室也不错，都是club内部的人。Nature的文章发表
之前就在很多会议上介绍了，我是从两三年前才听到的，这些数据出来已经三四年甚至
更早了。而且他们的数据还又找另一个实验室重复了一遍。
【在 y******8 的大作中提到】
: The announcement came from Glenn Begley of Amgen. I would like to wait for
: their research results published.
: Papers disapproving Sirtuins were published in Nature and JBC as real
: scientific publication, not just some blog buzz.
: If this case goes into the similar situation of Sirtuins, I would nor be
: suprised, neither be bothered by the inconsistency. Remember, self-correct
: is a part of scientific research.
: Still, dissapointed by LZ's failure to provide hard evidence.
|
w***r
发帖数: 709 | 18 you will not see any published data. as a condition to get the original
material, they had to sign a law document with the labs that they are not
allowed to publish anything. another comment from different company is
published in Nature review drug discovery, the number is about 60-70%.
【在 y******8 的大作中提到】
: The announcement came from Glenn Begley of Amgen. I would like to wait for
: their research results published.
: Papers disapproving Sirtuins were published in Nature and JBC as real
: scientific publication, not just some blog buzz.
: If this case goes into the similar situation of Sirtuins, I would nor be
: suprised, neither be bothered by the inconsistency. Remember, self-correct
: is a part of scientific research.
: Still, dissapointed by LZ's failure to provide hard evidence.
|
y******8
发帖数: 1764 | 19 It is a long story.
You should start a new thread.
【在 D*a 的大作中提到】
: Nature那篇后面也有大牛支持，大牛跟其他大牛关系也很好，成天飞来飞去互相邀请
: talk和其他事宜。我记得貌似大牛是倒数二作还是什么，反正占了个座，倒数一作跟大
: 牛关系紧密，很多合作，自己的实验室也不错，都是club内部的人。Nature的文章发表
: 之前就在很多会议上介绍了，我是从两三年前才听到的，这些数据出来已经三四年甚至
: 更早了。而且他们的数据还又找另一个实验室重复了一遍。
|
y******8
发帖数: 1764 | 20 I think we will see the publication eventually.
LZ should quit his research job, and be a professional investigator on
misconduct of scientific research and misbehavior in academia.
【在 w***r 的大作中提到】
: you will not see any published data. as a condition to get the original
: material, they had to sign a law document with the labs that they are not
: allowed to publish anything. another comment from different company is
: published in Nature review drug discovery, the number is about 60-70%.
|
|
|
D*a
发帖数: 6830 | 21 in short，自我纠错主要是因为大牛对大牛。。。
【在 y******8 的大作中提到】
: It is a long story.
: You should start a new thread.
|
M*****n
发帖数: 16729 | 22 big pharms are solely after profit and I don't think they spend enormous
effort doing very difficult projects like academic groups.
as a business, they have to compare the investment and the profit. if it
costs a lot to pursue, they are more likely to terminate the project. but in
an academic setting, it's very different:a student may have to spend a year
to get one experiment done.
big pharms basically take advantage of tax-dollar-funded research and try to
earn profit from tax-payers.
They are like big banks in some way.
【在 y******8 的大作中提到】
: Big pharms' research capability is enormous, but much less motivated.
: Therefore, the output of Big pharms' R is a joke now.
: I think the trend would be that big pharms buy patents from start-ups and
: academia, and hire CRO for downstream R&D.
|
T****i
发帖数: 15191 | 23 Please don't tell what others should do for their life. You are a faculty
member, but that does not mean that you have the right to decide other
people's life.
By the way, my research goes quite well right now and I am passionate about
my research. And on top of that, I have plenty of my own grant money to
spend. Why should I quit?
【在 y******8 的大作中提到】
: I think we will see the publication eventually.
: LZ should quit his research job, and be a professional investigator on
: misconduct of scientific research and misbehavior in academia.
|
y******8
发帖数: 1764 | 24 In short, the Sir2 story has been doubted from day one in research community
.
It is the mainstream media, instead of any scientific channel, made this
huge bubble and blow it. The media costs taxpayers and big pharms billions
of dollors on this STORY.
If you want to discuss, just start a new thread.
【在 D*a 的大作中提到】
: in short，自我纠错主要是因为大牛对大牛。。。
|
y******8
发帖数: 1764 | 25 Big pharms also pay taxes. They are better in making money than in doing
research.
in
year
to
【在 M*****n 的大作中提到】
: big pharms are solely after profit and I don't think they spend enormous
: effort doing very difficult projects like academic groups.
: as a business, they have to compare the investment and the profit. if it
: costs a lot to pursue, they are more likely to terminate the project. but in
: an academic setting, it's very different:a student may have to spend a year
: to get one experiment done.
: big pharms basically take advantage of tax-dollar-funded research and try to
: earn profit from tax-payers.
: They are like big banks in some way.
|
y******8
发帖数: 1764 | 26 First, I am not a faculty member.
Second, I am telling my impression, and never think people should change
their career path based on some buzz on BBS.
However, you gave me this impression. I just said it.
about
【在 T****i 的大作中提到】
: Please don't tell what others should do for their life. You are a faculty
: member, but that does not mean that you have the right to decide other
: people's life.
: By the way, my research goes quite well right now and I am passionate about
: my research. And on top of that, I have plenty of my own grant money to
: spend. Why should I quit?
|
f**********e
发帖数: 1994 | 27 Big pharma 的確是利潤第一，但是利潤來自可重復性。學術界的 projects
也不是真的比較難，就是比較新穎。本來工業界對學術界的期許就是：
你們拿公家的錢，幹 open ended 的項目，把結果公諸大眾，而這些結果應該
大部分是可靠的。工業界可以拿這些大部分可靠的結果來盈利。結果這些東西
現在看起來 80-90% 是布爾雪特。我個人認為拿 public money 製造雪特是很
可恥的事。
in
year
to
【在 M*****n 的大作中提到】
: big pharms are solely after profit and I don't think they spend enormous
: effort doing very difficult projects like academic groups.
: as a business, they have to compare the investment and the profit. if it
: costs a lot to pursue, they are more likely to terminate the project. but in
: an academic setting, it's very different:a student may have to spend a year
: to get one experiment done.
: big pharms basically take advantage of tax-dollar-funded research and try to
: earn profit from tax-payers.
: They are like big banks in some way.
|
K******S
发帖数: 10109 | 28 zan 布爾雪特
【在 f**********e 的大作中提到】
: Big pharma 的確是利潤第一，但是利潤來自可重復性。學術界的 projects
: 也不是真的比較難，就是比較新穎。本來工業界對學術界的期許就是：
: 你們拿公家的錢，幹 open ended 的項目，把結果公諸大眾，而這些結果應該
: 大部分是可靠的。工業界可以拿這些大部分可靠的結果來盈利。結果這些東西
: 現在看起來 80-90% 是布爾雪特。我個人認為拿 public money 製造雪特是很
: 可恥的事。
:
: in
: year
: to
|
S**********l
发帖数: 3835 | 29 这个比例或许有点儿夸张，但是确实academia界需要整顿。太急功近利了。
我们以前看RNAseq和microarray的data，都是published，差不多1/3根本不能map(比如
yeast map在human上），或者totally random data (microarray)。里面不乏Nature,
Cell的paper和一些著名的group。我给他们发email（那时候比较幼稚）,一开始都很热
情解释他们data怎么做的，然后问，为啥你mouse的data map在yeast上的更多，立刻不
回了。必然是自己知道怎么回事的。至于后面那些图怎么做的。。。那真是匪夷所思。
。。
这只是最最低档的作假。还没算那些下游的呢。
【在 y******8 的大作中提到】
: Interesting statement.
: "47 out of 53 landmark publications"
: Ref please!
:
: or
: we
: the
|
f**********e
发帖数: 1994 | 30 如果是很短的 short read 的話，的確很容易亂 map 的。 不過耗子 map 到酵母實在
比較那個。
,
【在 S**********l 的大作中提到】
: 这个比例或许有点儿夸张，但是确实academia界需要整顿。太急功近利了。
: 我们以前看RNAseq和microarray的data，都是published，差不多1/3根本不能map(比如
: yeast map在human上），或者totally random data (microarray)。里面不乏Nature,
: Cell的paper和一些著名的group。我给他们发email（那时候比较幼稚）,一开始都很热
: 情解释他们data怎么做的，然后问，为啥你mouse的data map在yeast上的更多，立刻不
: 回了。必然是自己知道怎么回事的。至于后面那些图怎么做的。。。那真是匪夷所思。
: 。。
: 这只是最最低档的作假。还没算那些下游的呢。
|
|
|
l**********1
发帖数: 5204 | 31 //www.nature.com/nature/journal/v483/n7391/full/483531a.html
//www.theoneclickgroup.co.uk/news.php?id=7044#newspost
回复]
[ 7 ]
发信人: SpringIsGone (DogFish), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: A moral high ground for faculty?
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sun Apr 8 16:21:04 2012, 美东)
你写的还是哪看来的？
-----
回复]
[ 13 ]
发信人: yuem0428 (ym), 信区: Biology
标 题: Re: A moral high ground for faculty?
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sun Apr 8 17:16:03 2012, 美东)
Sorry, the mainstream media is even less accountable than research
publication.
Any direct evidence? |
y******8
发帖数: 1764 | 32 Academia itself should be curiosity oriented. Any self-disciplined scientist
would only make very limited claims.
It the public put extra pressure or incentives on scientific research,
academia can be easily polluted. So, quite often, many critics also helped
to distort the truth.
I only look at concepts on those fancy papers. As I know, CNS love to risk
retractions and other people's reputation to publish novel concepts.
,
【在 S**********l 的大作中提到】
: 这个比例或许有点儿夸张，但是确实academia界需要整顿。太急功近利了。
: 我们以前看RNAseq和microarray的data，都是published，差不多1/3根本不能map(比如
: yeast map在human上），或者totally random data (microarray)。里面不乏Nature,
: Cell的paper和一些著名的group。我给他们发email（那时候比较幼稚）,一开始都很热
: 情解释他们data怎么做的，然后问，为啥你mouse的data map在yeast上的更多，立刻不
: 回了。必然是自己知道怎么回事的。至于后面那些图怎么做的。。。那真是匪夷所思。
: 。。
: 这只是最最低档的作假。还没算那些下游的呢。
|
y******8
发帖数: 1764 | 33 Thanks for the refs.
【在 l**********1 的大作中提到】
: //www.nature.com/nature/journal/v483/n7391/full/483531a.html
: //www.theoneclickgroup.co.uk/news.php?id=7044#newspost
: 回复]
: [ 7 ]
: 发信人: SpringIsGone (DogFish), 信区: Biology
: 标 题: Re: A moral high ground for faculty?
: 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sun Apr 8 16:21:04 2012, 美东)
: 你写的还是哪看来的？
: -----
: 回复]
|
l**********1
发帖数: 5204 | 34 De rein.
【在 y******8 的大作中提到】
: Thanks for the refs.
|
