h****o
发帖数: 252 | 1 需要大家来comments USCIS "Same or Similar" Policy!!!
不管你是交了485的还是没交485的，这个rule说的是485 pending 180天后能换什么样
工作的事情，所以关系到所有还没有绿卡的人
这个rule也有可能会包括在#140EADAP里，所以关系到所有还没有绿卡的人
文后链接有模板，鼓励大家根据自己的情况修改，实在没时间的，copy&paste发出去也
好！！！
USCIS "Same or Similar" Policy memo Comments due Jan 4, 2016. Please read
the following information, and TAKE ACTION to send out your comments.
(1) 2015 Nov 20, USCIS posted new policy memo for public comments: PED-Draft
_Same_or_Similar_Policy_Memorandum_-_11.20.15.
(2) The comment period currently closes on Jan. 4, giving stakeholders
roughly six weeks to weigh in.
(3) Please email all comments to: [email protected]
/* */
(4) Please include the following to make your comments clear:
.State the title of this memo in the subject line of your message;
.Refer to a specific portion of the memo;
.Explain the reason for any recommended change; and
.Include data, information, or authority that supports the recommendation.
(5) Here is the link to the USCIS "Same or Similar" Policy memo draft
http://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Outreach/Draft%2
(6) Here is the official website of Standard Occupational Classification (
SOC) system, you can find SOC code on this website
http://www.bls.gov/soc/
(7) Here is the official website of O*NET Code Connector system, you can
search SOC code in this website, to see description/skills/task of a job
title, and to see related job titles.
https://www.onetcodeconnector.org/
(8) Some comments letter for your reference:
https://www.facebook.com/haifeng.xiao.5 |
c*******n
发帖数: 2629 | |
h***a
发帖数: 1775 | 3 需要做的是把comment通过email发过去？还是如何？ |
l******t
发帖数: 238 | |
h****o
发帖数: 252 | 5 把comment通过email发出去
【在 h***a 的大作中提到】
: 需要做的是把comment通过email发过去？还是如何？
|
h****o
发帖数: 252 | 6 facebook 那个连接点进去，第一个贴子里有四个模板的链接。
可以直接copy past
【在 l******t 的大作中提到】
: 支持！有没有模板？
|
c******3
发帖数: 6509 | |
x*********s
发帖数: 2604 | 8 这个policy不错，文中提到：
Scenario A. If the occupation described in the original job offer was
assigned
the SOC code of 15-1132 for Software Developers, Applications, ISOs may
determine that a new job offer described in the SOC code of 11-3021 for
Computer and Information Systems Managers is in a similar occupational
classification. This is because Computer and Information Systems Managers
generally manage individuals in positions that fall within occupational
classifications that are the same as or similar to the occupational
classification
of the original job offer (e.g., Computer Programmers (15-1131); Software
Developers, Applications (15-1132); Software Developers, Systems Software
(15-1133); and Web Developers (15-1134), all of which are grouped together
under the broad occupational code for Software Developers and Programmers
(15-1130)).
也就是说，如果从engineer跳槽或者升职到engineering manager是similar job，这是
从career progressive角度做出的改进，十分有益。 |
h****o
发帖数: 252 | 9 你看看SOC那个链接 一共23大类 97小类, IT可以cover至少两大类 小类数十， 就算在
IT里换工作 小类是完全可能不同的 更不要说很多人是做cross function job的 同一
个职位 可能会在不同的大类里
【在 c******3 的大作中提到】
: IT业，再怎么跳也在领域内，这个好像关系不大
|
X**J
发帖数: 466 | 10 合法移民改革，大家能出把力就出把力。 有的时候现在关系不大，以后可能就有关系
了。 或者会关系到你的朋友或者亲人。
现在合法移民改革就两个regulation在走，发个邮件可能就可以推进一些好的条例。
【在 c******3 的大作中提到】
: IT业，再怎么跳也在领域内，这个好像关系不大
|
|
|
c******3
发帖数: 6509 | 11 我的PERM包括软件研发、IC设计、team管理等，所以大多数小类都能覆盖50%或以上。
加上我不适合管理工作，所以再怎么跳也在范围内，总不至于拿绿卡后只是想找个收银
员等打杂工作吧？
不过为了后人，还是去帮着转发下邮件吧
【在 h****o 的大作中提到】
: 你看看SOC那个链接 一共23大类 97小类, IT可以cover至少两大类 小类数十， 就算在
: IT里换工作 小类是完全可能不同的 更不要说很多人是做cross function job的 同一
: 个职位 可能会在不同的大类里
|
h****o
发帖数: 252 | 12 大哥，我看到你的回帖都要哭了
咋就说不明白了
问题就是你的perm包括了大多小类，但是你的perm只有一个SOCcode吧，你的perm上没
有列上所有的code吧
打个比方
你的PERM job description里可以包括15-000x，15-000y， 17-000x, 17-000y里的好
多工作，你也是个技能全面的多面手 （其实这里的中国人，大部分都是技能全面的多
面手）
现在的A公司给你file了15-000x
你想换工作了，到了B公司，做同样的工作软件研发、IC设计、team管理
USCIS也不明白，大致看看说，你在B公司的工作属于17-000y，USCIS有错没？也没错，
你自己也说了，你这工作大多数小类都能覆盖50%或以上，所以说B工作是17-000y也无
可厚非
然后USCIS说你PERM是15-000x，换工作成17-000y了，这两工作major代码不一样，
reject!
!!
以前没代码论的时候，好歹发个REF，给你个申辩的机会
现在过分强调代码，小代码不一样，还没准能过，打代码不一样，估计直接reject了
大哥，我苦口婆心说这些，也不是为别的
好好看看那13页的USCIS的policy memo，也就1个小时的事情
再看看SOC code系统，再1个小时
也就不会盲目乐观了
【在 c******3 的大作中提到】
: 我的PERM包括软件研发、IC设计、team管理等，所以大多数小类都能覆盖50%或以上。
: 加上我不适合管理工作，所以再怎么跳也在范围内，总不至于拿绿卡后只是想找个收银
: 员等打杂工作吧？
: 不过为了后人，还是去帮着转发下邮件吧
|
y****e
发帖数: 158 | 13 http://www.bls.gov/soc/2010/soc150000.htm
15-1100 Computer Occupations
15-1110 Computer and Information Research Scientists
15-1111 Computer and Information Research Scientists
15-1120 Computer and Information Analysts
15-1121 Computer Systems Analysts
15-1122 Information Security Analysts
15-1130 Software Developers and Programmers
15-1131 Computer Programmers
15-1132 Software Developers, Applications
15-1133 Software Developers, Systems Software
15-1134 Web Developers
15-1140 Database and Systems Administrators and Network Architects
15-1141 Database Administrators
15-1142 Network and Computer Systems Administrators
15-1143 Computer Network Architects
15-1150 Computer Support Specialists
15-1151 Computer User Support Specialists
15-1152 Computer Network Support Specialists
15-1190 Miscellaneous Computer Occupations
15-1199 Computer Occupations, All Other |
c******3
发帖数: 6509 | 14 我做NIW材料的时候就查过SOC CODE，以及对应的SVP（我需要SVP 9.0或更高职业）
我所有能做的工作都是15-xxxx，甚至很多优先考虑的工作前4位都相同，所以再怎么跳
槽也就在这个范围内
【在 h****o 的大作中提到】
: 大哥，我看到你的回帖都要哭了
: 咋就说不明白了
: 问题就是你的perm包括了大多小类，但是你的perm只有一个SOCcode吧，你的perm上没
: 有列上所有的code吧
: 打个比方
: 你的PERM job description里可以包括15-000x，15-000y， 17-000x, 17-000y里的好
: 多工作，你也是个技能全面的多面手 （其实这里的中国人，大部分都是技能全面的多
: 面手）
: 现在的A公司给你file了15-000x
: 你想换工作了，到了B公司，做同样的工作软件研发、IC设计、team管理
|
m******r
发帖数: 3197 | |
h****o
发帖数: 252 | 16 再看看17-xxxx的
17-0000 Architecture and Engineering Occupations
17-1000 Architects, Surveyors, and Cartographers
17-1010 Architects, Except Naval
17-1011 Architects, Except Landscape and Naval
17-1012 Landscape Architects
17-1020 Surveyors, Cartographers, and Photogrammetrists
17-1021 Cartographers and Photogrammetrists
17-1022 Surveyors
17-2000 Engineers
17-2010 Aerospace Engineers
17-2011 Aerospace Engineers
17-2020 Agricultural Engineers
17-2021 Agricultural Engineers
17-2030 Biomedical Engineers
17-2031 Biomedical Engineers
17-2040 Chemical Engineers
17-2041 Chemical Engineers
17-2050 Civil Engineers
17-2051 Civil Engineers
17-2060 Computer Hardware Engineers
17-2061 Computer Hardware Engineers
17-2070 Electrical and Electronics Engineers
17-2071 Electrical Engineers
17-2072 Electronics Engineers, Except Computer
17-2080 Environmental Engineers
17-2081 Environmental Engineers
17-2110 Industrial Engineers, Including Health and Safety
17-2111 Health and Safety Engineers, Except Mining Safety Engineers and
Inspectors
17-2112 Industrial Engineers
17-2120 Marine Engineers and Naval Architects
17-2121 Marine Engineers and Naval Architects
17-2130 Materials Engineers
17-2131 Materials Engineers
17-2140 Mechanical Engineers
17-2141 Mechanical Engineers
17-2150 Mining and Geological Engineers, Including Mining Safety Engineers
17-2151 Mining and Geological Engineers, Including Mining Safety Engineers
17-2160 Nuclear Engineers
17-2161 Nuclear Engineers
17-2170 Petroleum Engineers
17-2171 Petroleum Engineers
17-2190 Miscellaneous Engineers
17-2199 Engineers, All Other
【在 y****e 的大作中提到】
: http://www.bls.gov/soc/2010/soc150000.htm
: 15-1100 Computer Occupations
: 15-1110 Computer and Information Research Scientists
: 15-1111 Computer and Information Research Scientists
: 15-1120 Computer and Information Analysts
: 15-1121 Computer Systems Analysts
: 15-1122 Information Security Analysts
: 15-1130 Software Developers and Programmers
: 15-1131 Computer Programmers
: 15-1132 Software Developers, Applications
|
h****o
发帖数: 252 | 17 问题是：不是你说code相同就就相同的，得USCIS说相同才行
你前贴说你做的那个IC设计，一不小心就是Electronics Engineers
17-2070 Electrical and Electronics Engineers
17-2071 Electrical Engineers
17-2072 Electronics Engineers, Except Computer
【在 c******3 的大作中提到】
: 我做NIW材料的时候就查过SOC CODE，以及对应的SVP（我需要SVP 9.0或更高职业）
: 我所有能做的工作都是15-xxxx，甚至很多优先考虑的工作前4位都相同，所以再怎么跳
: 槽也就在这个范围内
|
c******3
发帖数: 6509 | 18 我做数字前端，不会跑去17-20xx类别，我查过job duties部分，SVP是按照这个定的
【在 h****o 的大作中提到】
: 问题是：不是你说code相同就就相同的，得USCIS说相同才行
: 你前贴说你做的那个IC设计，一不小心就是Electronics Engineers
: 17-2070 Electrical and Electronics Engineers
: 17-2071 Electrical Engineers
: 17-2072 Electronics Engineers, Except Computer
|
h****o
发帖数: 252 | 19 非常感谢你的讨论，也许你的情况是非常safe的
但是通过讨论，我们也看到，有很多其他情况，非常相似的工作，会落到不同的code上
特别是很多统计专业的，医学专业的，EE专业的，在模板里都有提到
comments的目的是使这个policyl灵活，更适合大家的职业发展
【在 c******3 的大作中提到】
: 我做数字前端，不会跑去17-20xx类别，我查过job duties部分，SVP是按照这个定的
|
l*****g
发帖数: 525 | 20 我刚刚用了另外一个贴里的模版，稍微改了一下，正好是针对楼主说的这种码工硅工跳
槽的事情的
Email to: [email protected]
/* */
ATTN: The Same or a Similar Occupational Classification” for Purposes of
Section 204(j) Job Portability
Comments on Draft PM-602-0122
Dear USCIS Adjudication Committee,
The purpose of this email is to provide comments on the Draft Memo 602-0122
which was released on November 20, 2015.
As one of the skilled immigrants waiting several years for the green cards,
I notice that in the draft, a lot of emphasis on the SOC Code are mentioned,
while I believe that the definition of the similar/same job should go far
beyond the SOC job category and USCIS should take the transferable skills,
job task, the working tools and technology, etc. into more consideration
when defining the similar/same jobs. The emphasis on the job category codes
will in fact limit the definition of similar/same jobs as well as the
standard procedure the adjudicators are guided, and will probably result
into erroneous denies to legitimate cases.
For example, in the section "Other Variations" of the draft, a case of "an
individual whose original job was coded within the major group code of 15-
0000 for Computer and Mathematical Occupations may find a job in an
engineering field, which is classified under the major group code of 17-0000
for Architecture and Engineering Occupations" is mentioned. However, there
is no detailed guidelines of how to determine whether a job change between
15-0000 and 17-0000 is eligible to use AC21.
A suggestion is to use the data provided by The Bureau of Labor Statistics (
BLS) as references. For instance, on the official website of BLS, "Computer
Hardware Engineer" (17-2061) has multiple types of similar occupations such
as "Software Developers" (15-1132, 15-1133), etc. Obviously, it will be bad
if these positions get rejected as the similar jobs in the condition that
SOC Code plays an important role in defining the similar/same jobs.
Therefore, we recommend that USCIS should not pay too much attention on the
SOC code but focus more on the job tasks, transferable skills, the working
tools and technology, education and working environment when defining the
similar/same jobs in the final rule.
We humbly submit the above comments to you and ask that you implement them
in your guidance of “same or similar” going forward so that foreign
nationals can be used to complement the American labor force.
Sincerely,
【在 h****o 的大作中提到】
: 大哥，我看到你的回帖都要哭了
: 咋就说不明白了
: 问题就是你的perm包括了大多小类，但是你的perm只有一个SOCcode吧，你的perm上没
: 有列上所有的code吧
: 打个比方
: 你的PERM job description里可以包括15-000x，15-000y， 17-000x, 17-000y里的好
: 多工作，你也是个技能全面的多面手 （其实这里的中国人，大部分都是技能全面的多
: 面手）
: 现在的A公司给你file了15-000x
: 你想换工作了，到了B公司，做同样的工作软件研发、IC设计、team管理
|
|
|
h****o
发帖数: 252 | 21 好文，希望大家多发多写
/* */
0122
,
【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: 我刚刚用了另外一个贴里的模版，稍微改了一下，正好是针对楼主说的这种码工硅工跳
: 槽的事情的
: Email to: [email protected]
: /* */
: ATTN: The Same or a Similar Occupational Classification” for Purposes of
: Section 204(j) Job Portability
: Comments on Draft PM-602-0122
: Dear USCIS Adjudication Committee,
: The purpose of this email is to provide comments on the Draft Memo 602-0122
: which was released on November 20, 2015.
|
h****o
发帖数: 252 | 22 给个可以share/download的link, 方便大家一起发
/* */
0122
,
【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: 我刚刚用了另外一个贴里的模版，稍微改了一下，正好是针对楼主说的这种码工硅工跳
: 槽的事情的
: Email to: [email protected]
: /* */
: ATTN: The Same or a Similar Occupational Classification” for Purposes of
: Section 204(j) Job Portability
: Comments on Draft PM-602-0122
: Dear USCIS Adjudication Committee,
: The purpose of this email is to provide comments on the Draft Memo 602-0122
: which was released on November 20, 2015.
|
p*********w
发帖数: 606 | 23 已发，主要谈了两点：1.放宽对computer software行业的same or similar的标准，因
为这个行业变化迅速，2.140-ead和140 irrevokable
【在 h****o 的大作中提到】
: 好文，希望大家多发多写
:
: /* */
: 0122
: ,
|
h****o
发帖数: 252 | 24 Great!
【在 p*********w 的大作中提到】
: 已发，主要谈了两点：1.放宽对computer software行业的same or similar的标准，因
: 为这个行业变化迅速，2.140-ead和140 irrevokable
|
h****o
发帖数: 252 | 25 Great!
【在 p*********w 的大作中提到】
: 已发，主要谈了两点：1.放宽对computer software行业的same or similar的标准，因
: 为这个行业变化迅速，2.140-ead和140 irrevokable
|
h****o
发帖数: 252 | 26 我把你的帖子放在google doc里了，方便大家copy paste!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QapkeQdlcFfh7LOwad_
CbUhlQFpgYmMDOpR7cKOsyCY/edit?usp=sharing
/* */
0122
,
【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: 我刚刚用了另外一个贴里的模版，稍微改了一下，正好是针对楼主说的这种码工硅工跳
: 槽的事情的
: Email to: [email protected]
: /* */
: ATTN: The Same or a Similar Occupational Classification” for Purposes of
: Section 204(j) Job Portability
: Comments on Draft PM-602-0122
: Dear USCIS Adjudication Committee,
: The purpose of this email is to provide comments on the Draft Memo 602-0122
: which was released on November 20, 2015.
|
s***m
发帖数: 336 | 27 很有用的帖子。
研究了一下，发现如果要从硬工转软工，大抵就是从以下的SOC code
17-2060 Computer Hardware Engineers
17-2061 Computer Hardware Engineers
17-2070 Electrical and Electronics Engineers
17-2071 Electrical Engineers
17-2072 Electronics Engineers, Except Computer
跳到以下的SOC code
15-1100 Computer Occupations
应该建议放宽EE和CS工作之间的限制。很多学校EECS都不分家，skill也是
transferable，所以不应死磕SOC code，甚至job description。
不知道大家有没有更好更详细更有说服力的说辞？ |
h****o
发帖数: 252 | 28 对，分析的好，如果有人有写出更加有力的letter，并且愿意分享给大家，请告诉我，
我收纳到首贴中，供大家研究分享。
【在 s***m 的大作中提到】
: 很有用的帖子。
: 研究了一下，发现如果要从硬工转软工，大抵就是从以下的SOC code
: 17-2060 Computer Hardware Engineers
: 17-2061 Computer Hardware Engineers
: 17-2070 Electrical and Electronics Engineers
: 17-2071 Electrical Engineers
: 17-2072 Electronics Engineers, Except Computer
: 跳到以下的SOC code
: 15-1100 Computer Occupations
: 应该建议放宽EE和CS工作之间的限制。很多学校EECS都不分家，skill也是
|
p******k
发帖数: 16 | 29 好像还有些时间发，等等看还有人有新的letter不 |
B********t
发帖数: 1321 | 30 发了。指出对于码工来说，PERM的要求都是3，4年前的技术，换工作再强调必须相似技
能纯属扯谈，应该就是485 pending 180天只要还做码工就OK。 |
|
|
h****o
发帖数: 252 | 31 更新（10）：添加了律师Cyrus Mehta的comment letter。供大家参考
【在 p******k 的大作中提到】
: 好像还有些时间发，等等看还有人有新的letter不
|
s***m
发帖数: 336 | 32 这里有个不错的模板：
http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/EB23/32492295.html
Email to: [email protected]
/* */
ATTN: The Same or a Similar Occupational Classification” for Purposes of
Section 204(j) Job Portability
Comments on Draft PM-602-0122
Dear USCIS Adjudication Committee,
Thank you for providing the most important stakeholders, the petitioners
like myself, ability to provide comments on the Draft Memo 602-0122 which
was released on November 20, 2015.
As someone who is subject to extreme backlogs of more than a decade, that
immigrants from most other countries are not subject to, I am very
interested in ensuring that these long waits do not negatively impact my
ability to progress in my career.
To evaluate this memo, I looked at some of the most successful immigrants to
USA and applied the draft rules in this memo to see if this memo would have
helped them achieve success and contribute to the country. In that respect,
this memo would have SIGNIFICANTLY hurt them.
1. For e.g. Sundar Pichai, CEO of Google, would fail this test because
the SOC codes between his time in Management Consulting at McKinsey and
product management at Google do not match. Also, based on a comment provided
as part of a call on 12/17/2015, being a CEO would also fail “same or
similar” classification as I will detail below.
2. Satya Nadella, CEO of Microsoft, rose through the ranks of
Microsoft to become the CEO. Based on the comments provided on the call on
12/17/2015, there is a requirement to manage people of same or similar job
classification. This becomes very hard to do because with 120,000 employees
in case of Microsoft or 60,000 in case of Google, CEOs eventually manage
diverse groups.
3. Lastly, Jan Koum, who created WhatsApp that was sold to Facebook
for $19 Billion would not have qualified under the rules in this memo as SOC
codes for his previous roles and a startup founder were different.
I hope those examples illustrate the very real consequences of relying on
SOC codes. The technology industries, that I am part of, have a very rapid
pace of change and many skills are very easily transferable to multiple
industries. The reliance on SOC codes impedes progress of many immigrants on
multiple levels.
Therefore, I strongly recommend that the “preponderance of evidence”
standard, including evidence from the current employer that demonstrates
that the skills and abilities detailed in the original petition are a factor
in the current job role, ALONE should be sufficient to deem that the new
job is in a same or similar classification. In addition, I also recommend
that the LEAST restrictive definition of “similar” be used as a guiding
factor in all determinations.
This, I believe, is in line with the letter and spirit of President Obama’s
Executive Action and would help us immigrants continue to contribute to the
larger US economy and complement the existing American workforce.
Sincerely, |
l****h
发帖数: 88 | 33 读了这个 soc codes后有点怕怕。因为今天刚查过，我的公司律师给申的是 15-1132
Software Developers, Applications。 Prevailing wage 107K.
现实中的我只是个sr database marketing, 而且偏marketing，就是写写query，做做
reporting，presentation啥的，我的degree是Information Systems Management, 所
以估计公司给我伸了个technical的code。
请问我180天后换个marketing database manager 的职位，靠谱吗？如果加了manager
这个头衔，工资再高一点，是不是我就没戏了。不要告诉我180天只是个梦啊。。。。
求各位大牛指点！ |
l****h
发帖数: 88 | |
h****o
发帖数: 252 | 35 所以说 需要大家一起努力来改变rule! 现在排期这么长
manager
【在 l****h 的大作中提到】
: 读了这个 soc codes后有点怕怕。因为今天刚查过，我的公司律师给申的是 15-1132
: Software Developers, Applications。 Prevailing wage 107K.
: 现实中的我只是个sr database marketing, 而且偏marketing，就是写写query，做做
: reporting，presentation啥的，我的degree是Information Systems Management, 所
: 以估计公司给我伸了个technical的code。
: 请问我180天后换个marketing database manager 的职位，靠谱吗？如果加了manager
: 这个头衔，工资再高一点，是不是我就没戏了。不要告诉我180天只是个梦啊。。。。
: 求各位大牛指点！
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h****o
发帖数: 252 | 36 添加的首帖中，供大家参考！
/* */
【在 s***m 的大作中提到】
: 这里有个不错的模板：
: http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/EB23/32492295.html
: Email to: [email protected]
: /* */
: ATTN: The Same or a Similar Occupational Classification” for Purposes of
: Section 204(j) Job Portability
: Comments on Draft PM-602-0122
: Dear USCIS Adjudication Committee,
: Thank you for providing the most important stakeholders, the petitioners
: like myself, ability to provide comments on the Draft Memo 602-0122 which
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