m********4
发帖数: 645 | 1 RT。存了3年不到，现在想拿出来一部分，又没有什么fees要交？还是直接不能拿？多
谢。 | w***n
发帖数: 1519 | 2 Maybe 10% of earnings on top of income tax?
Why would you want to give up such a good tax shelter? 10k in roth now could
grow into 100k free of tax when you withdraw it 30 years later, assuming it
grows 8% per year.
【在 m********4 的大作中提到】
: RT。存了3年不到，现在想拿出来一部分，又没有什么fees要交？还是直接不能拿？多
: 谢。
| s***n
发帖数: 678 | 3 本金都可以拿,无罚款, 但是好像每年只能取一次还是怎么着. 本金所获得的收益取出
要罚款, 似乎要补税之类的, 忘了.
【在 m********4 的大作中提到】
: RT。存了3年不到，现在想拿出来一部分，又没有什么fees要交？还是直接不能拿？多
: 谢。
| E******w
发帖数: 2616 | 4 Roth IRA 没用，全取出来最好。要避税可以用traditional IRA。
【在 m********4 的大作中提到】
: RT。存了3年不到，现在想拿出来一部分，又没有什么fees要交？还是直接不能拿？多
: 谢。
| d*****r
发帖数: 273 | 5 I agree with you that Roth is a good tax shelter and everyone should
consider it at least.
could
it
【在 w***n 的大作中提到】
: Maybe 10% of earnings on top of income tax?
: Why would you want to give up such a good tax shelter? 10k in roth now could
: grow into 100k free of tax when you withdraw it 30 years later, assuming it
: grows 8% per year.
| f*******n
发帖数: 12623 | 6 本金什么时候都可以取出来，无税或罚款。没有什么一次的；多少次都没有区别。
【在 s***n 的大作中提到】
: 本金都可以拿,无罚款, 但是好像每年只能取一次还是怎么着. 本金所获得的收益取出
: 要罚款, 似乎要补税之类的, 忘了.
| w***n
发帖数: 1519 | 7 Certainly, Roth is especially good these years as we are having historically
-low tax rates. Plus, I could even pass it to my children and let the money
continue to accumulate tax-free.
【在 d*****r 的大作中提到】
: I agree with you that Roth is a good tax shelter and everyone should
: consider it at least.
:
: could
: it
| E******w
发帖数: 2616 | 8 The penalty of Roth IRA is that, while you save in Roth IRA, you still pay
mortgage interest to the bankers. Of course, you assume your investment
return rate is higher than the mortgage interest, but that's not true for
everyone, especially to those who think Roth IRA is useful. If you really
understand the system, you will understand that you need 0 in Roth IRA.
Anyway, just want to tell those who did not save in Roth IRA that they did
not miss anything important.
【在 d*****r 的大作中提到】
: I agree with you that Roth is a good tax shelter and everyone should
: consider it at least.
:
: could
: it
| f*******n
发帖数: 12623 | 9 You were suggesting Traditional IRA. But the exact same thing applies to
Traditional IRA.
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: The penalty of Roth IRA is that, while you save in Roth IRA, you still pay
: mortgage interest to the bankers. Of course, you assume your investment
: return rate is higher than the mortgage interest, but that's not true for
: everyone, especially to those who think Roth IRA is useful. If you really
: understand the system, you will understand that you need 0 in Roth IRA.
: Anyway, just want to tell those who did not save in Roth IRA that they did
: not miss anything important.
| w***n
发帖数: 1519 | 10 Simply put, if your current tax rate equals to what you will be taxed after
you retire, the only difference between roth and deductible traditional ira
would be that you essentially put more principle into roth under the same
contribution limit (as roth contribution is after-tax money). Now, between
these two similar tax shelters, how can one of them be useless while the
other is recommended?
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: Roth IRA 没用，全取出来最好。要避税可以用traditional IRA。
| | | E******w
发帖数: 2616 | 11 Traditional IRA is used to reduce your taxible income. Once the money is in
your hand, either you do not know stock trading, which means you should not
put money in the stock market, or, you know stock trading, which probably
means you should know how to avoid capital gain tax anyway. Simply put, once
you paid your income tax and the money is under your control, you should
not pay anyone any tax anymore. When you save in traditional IRA, you should
also plan to pay zero tax when you take the money out after retirement.
after
ira
【在 w***n 的大作中提到】
: Simply put, if your current tax rate equals to what you will be taxed after
: you retire, the only difference between roth and deductible traditional ira
: would be that you essentially put more principle into roth under the same
: contribution limit (as roth contribution is after-tax money). Now, between
: these two similar tax shelters, how can one of them be useless while the
: other is recommended?
| w***n
发帖数: 1519 | 12
in your hand, either you do not know stock trading, which means you :
should not put money in the stock market, or, you know stock trading, :
which probably means you should know how to avoid capital gain tax anyway.
You need to worry about capital gain tax only if you do have capital gain to
start with. Then, you will have these options: 1) pay it every year in your
regular investment account, 2) defer it to many years later down the road
in your 401k/traditional ira, or 3) only pay the tax on principle up front
in roth/529, and then avoid later tax (restrictions apply). To me, both 2)
and 3) are reasonably good. It's still not clear to me why one of them is
useless.
control, you should not pay anyone any tax anymore.
Isn't this what roth offers?
Not sure about you. But in my case, I don't know how to pay zero tax now for
roth contributions, and I don't expect to magically learn how to pay zero
tax for distributions in a traditional IRA after retirement.
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: Traditional IRA is used to reduce your taxible income. Once the money is in
: your hand, either you do not know stock trading, which means you should not
: put money in the stock market, or, you know stock trading, which probably
: means you should know how to avoid capital gain tax anyway. Simply put, once
: you paid your income tax and the money is under your control, you should
: not pay anyone any tax anymore. When you save in traditional IRA, you should
: also plan to pay zero tax when you take the money out after retirement.
:
: after
: ira
| E******w
发帖数: 2616 | 13 I guess you do know how to make 7~8% in stock market? I don't know how to do
that. So putting money in the stock market is not a good decision for me
now.
to
your
【在 w***n 的大作中提到】
:
: in your hand, either you do not know stock trading, which means you :
: should not put money in the stock market, or, you know stock trading, :
: which probably means you should know how to avoid capital gain tax anyway.
: You need to worry about capital gain tax only if you do have capital gain to
: start with. Then, you will have these options: 1) pay it every year in your
: regular investment account, 2) defer it to many years later down the road
: in your 401k/traditional ira, or 3) only pay the tax on principle up front
: in roth/529, and then avoid later tax (restrictions apply). To me, both 2)
: and 3) are reasonably good. It's still not clear to me why one of them is
| w***n
发帖数: 1519 | 14 There will be good years and bad years. That's for sure. The percentage (7-8
%) was just an assumption/example that many people use to help understand
the benefit of a tax shelter. A tax shelter alone, be it roth or something
else, certainly is not going to do the magic. Any way, the point I was
making was not about whether you should invest in stocks/bonds/commodities.
But I see your logic. The stock market can be indeed frustrating...
On a side note, I'm not doing well in stocks either in the past year or so.
That's to be expected. The recent bull market has lasted like 3.5 years? It'
s destined to be choppy. It's always easier to make money from early phase
of a bull. But I'm going to hang in there to make sure that when a new bull
starts I'm on board.
do
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: I guess you do know how to make 7~8% in stock market? I don't know how to do
: that. So putting money in the stock market is not a good decision for me
: now.
:
: to
: your
| f*******n
发帖数: 12623 | 15 "reduce your taxable income" is meaningless. It reduces the tax on the
amount you put in your IRA. It does not give you any "money in your hand".
With a Roth IRA, you have to pay tax on the amount inside the IRA, but if
you consider just the pre-tax cost to you, then there's no difference in
what you get "in your hand". The Roth IRA also saves the tax on the amount
inside the IRA when you take it out, whereas the Traditional IRA doesn't. So
they both save the tax once; it is the same.
To show what wltsn is talking about:
Supposed you always have a flat tax rate of 25%.
1. You put $5000 of pre-tax money into your Traditional IRA. It grows for
some amount of time, and becomes x times the original value. You take it out
and pay 25% tax. You get $5000 * x * 0.75 = $3750 * x money in the end.
2. You use $5000 of pre-tax money, which is $5000 * 0.75 = $3750 post-tax
money, to put into your Roth IRA. With the same investment as (1), it also
becomes x times the original value. You take it out and pay no tax. You get
$3750 * x money in the end.
They are exactly the same. It doesn't matter how much your investment goes
up or down. You also get the exact same amount of "money in your hand".
in
not
once
should
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: Traditional IRA is used to reduce your taxible income. Once the money is in
: your hand, either you do not know stock trading, which means you should not
: put money in the stock market, or, you know stock trading, which probably
: means you should know how to avoid capital gain tax anyway. Simply put, once
: you paid your income tax and the money is under your control, you should
: not pay anyone any tax anymore. When you save in traditional IRA, you should
: also plan to pay zero tax when you take the money out after retirement.
:
: after
: ira
| E******w
发帖数: 2616 | 16 You did not understand my points. There are two points I want to make.
1. Either IRA or Roth IRA, once you put money in, your money stucks there
and has to be put in the stock market. If you do not know stock trading, you
will lose money in the long run. So there is no point saving either in IRA
or Roth IRA.
2. Your tax rate is at its peak now when you are around 30~40 years old. So
saving in traditional IRA can reduce your effective tax. When you retire,
make sure you understand how to get zero tax. That has nothing to do with
the tax rate the goverment gives you. If you still do not understand how the
system works at age 65, just be poor. But not many people can understand
tax laws and stock trading at age of 30~40. So deferring your tax is
beneficial. While for Roth IRA, if you paid your tax already and you do not
know stock trading, you are committing suicide with Roth IRA. With
traditional IRA, at least you did not screw up both points.
Actually, just to give an example. Suppose you buy a big house with mortgage
, and you save in Roth IRA. You pay goverment in tax, you pay bankers in
mortgage interest, and you pay Wall Street in stock trading and money losing
. Who else do you want to pay with your little salary?
So
【在 f*******n 的大作中提到】
: "reduce your taxable income" is meaningless. It reduces the tax on the
: amount you put in your IRA. It does not give you any "money in your hand".
: With a Roth IRA, you have to pay tax on the amount inside the IRA, but if
: you consider just the pre-tax cost to you, then there's no difference in
: what you get "in your hand". The Roth IRA also saves the tax on the amount
: inside the IRA when you take it out, whereas the Traditional IRA doesn't. So
: they both save the tax once; it is the same.
: To show what wltsn is talking about:
: Supposed you always have a flat tax rate of 25%.
: 1. You put $5000 of pre-tax money into your Traditional IRA. It grows for
| f*******n
发帖数: 12623 | 17 What I am saying is that the only difference between Traditional IRA and
Roth IRA is the difference in tax rate between now and when you take it out.
It seems that you are only arguing that your tax rate will be lower when
you take it out. Okay, maybe (who knows?); but it is not true for many
people.
"If you do not know stock trading, you will lose money in the long run. So
there is no point saving either in IRA or Roth IRA."
Nobody says you have to do stock trading in your IRA. Whatever you would do
with your money in a taxable account (even if that's putting it in money
market), you can do the same thing in your IRA. So it can be *no worse* to
put it in the IRA.
you
IRA
So
the
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: You did not understand my points. There are two points I want to make.
: 1. Either IRA or Roth IRA, once you put money in, your money stucks there
: and has to be put in the stock market. If you do not know stock trading, you
: will lose money in the long run. So there is no point saving either in IRA
: or Roth IRA.
: 2. Your tax rate is at its peak now when you are around 30~40 years old. So
: saving in traditional IRA can reduce your effective tax. When you retire,
: make sure you understand how to get zero tax. That has nothing to do with
: the tax rate the goverment gives you. If you still do not understand how the
: system works at age 65, just be poor. But not many people can understand
| E******w
发帖数: 2616 | 18 Can I pay down my mortgage using IRA?
out.
do
【在 f*******n 的大作中提到】
: What I am saying is that the only difference between Traditional IRA and
: Roth IRA is the difference in tax rate between now and when you take it out.
: It seems that you are only arguing that your tax rate will be lower when
: you take it out. Okay, maybe (who knows?); but it is not true for many
: people.
: "If you do not know stock trading, you will lose money in the long run. So
: there is no point saving either in IRA or Roth IRA."
: Nobody says you have to do stock trading in your IRA. Whatever you would do
: with your money in a taxable account (even if that's putting it in money
: market), you can do the same thing in your IRA. So it can be *no worse* to
| w***n
发帖数: 1519 | 19 IRAs were designed based on a simple concept and only serve for that simple
purpose: tax break. They are not supposed to solve all your problems: how to
make money/how to make money in stocks, how to buy a house without getting
screwed up by mortgage, etc. So, let's not mix up all these issues and blame
on a tax shelter.
Everybody is in his/her unique situation. That's why one tax shelter doesn't
fit everybody, and that's why they have designed so many different ones. If
you can minimize tax after you retire, that's great. For many, it's not
practical. Who knows how much one has to distribute every year to maintain a
decent life after retirement considering inflation, and who knows how much
longer this historically-low tax rate can sustain. Adding all these up, I'm
just not sure whether my tax rate will eventually go up or down.
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: Can I pay down my mortgage using IRA?
:
: out.
: do
| d*****r
发帖数: 273 | 20 Great answer! Concise and easy to understand.
simple
to
getting
blame
't
If
a
much
【在 w***n 的大作中提到】
: IRAs were designed based on a simple concept and only serve for that simple
: purpose: tax break. They are not supposed to solve all your problems: how to
: make money/how to make money in stocks, how to buy a house without getting
: screwed up by mortgage, etc. So, let's not mix up all these issues and blame
: on a tax shelter.
: Everybody is in his/her unique situation. That's why one tax shelter doesn't
: fit everybody, and that's why they have designed so many different ones. If
: you can minimize tax after you retire, that's great. For many, it's not
: practical. Who knows how much one has to distribute every year to maintain a
: decent life after retirement considering inflation, and who knows how much
| | | E******w
发帖数: 2616 | 21 Remember one thing. Whatever goverment policy is designed to get money from
you, not to solve any of your problems. They make things complicated just to
let you give up thinking and follow their instructions. Whatever you are
saying are the standard stories told everywhere. You think the rich is also
trying hard to figure out how much to save in Roth IRA? They also don't know
where they tax rate will go? Do you think Romney would care about the tax
rate when he pays 14% tax? Do you know the detail on how to achieve that
rate yourself? Don't just follow the standard instructions. They are
designed to trap you, not to help you.
simple
to
getting
blame
't
If
a
much
【在 w***n 的大作中提到】
: IRAs were designed based on a simple concept and only serve for that simple
: purpose: tax break. They are not supposed to solve all your problems: how to
: make money/how to make money in stocks, how to buy a house without getting
: screwed up by mortgage, etc. So, let's not mix up all these issues and blame
: on a tax shelter.
: Everybody is in his/her unique situation. That's why one tax shelter doesn't
: fit everybody, and that's why they have designed so many different ones. If
: you can minimize tax after you retire, that's great. For many, it's not
: practical. Who knows how much one has to distribute every year to maintain a
: decent life after retirement considering inflation, and who knows how much
| w***n
发帖数: 1519 | 22 A lot of questions. Okay, so after all, it's not that easy to avoid tax when
government is trying the best to go after that, is it? All the great ideas
of thinking out of box, don't let government trap/fool you, etc. They all
sound inspiring and exciting, indeed. But in reality, even Romney has to pay
14% tax, not 0%. Considering the huge donation/charity which he gives out
that brings down the tax rate, his effective "tax+charity" rate out of
income is not a small percentage. Somehow finding a way to avoid tax
altogether is beyond my imagination.
Something maybe off-topic: About that 14%, it sounds like those super rich
are just parasites taking easy money while paying little tax, so relaxing
and enjoying. But is it really the case? Of course I don't know exactly how
they did it. Maybe a combination of off-shore asset and capital gain/
dividend. Either way, you will have to take extra risks in stocks or
investing in general and you will have to be damn good at it. That's not
easy to accomplish (we all know it from stock market). It requires
exceptional vision/skills, gut to sit through corrections, a lot of good
luck, plus maybe a rich dad. To me, it sounds about fair that the super rich
get rewarded on the low tax rate. It's how the system works. As much as
government wants to tax everyone to death, they have to give tax incentives
to encourage investments so that the government revenue is sustainable, if
you have to look at government in that way. Then, intuitively it boils down
to this question: If you don't invest at all, why would they give you any
tax break?
from
to
also
know
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: Remember one thing. Whatever goverment policy is designed to get money from
: you, not to solve any of your problems. They make things complicated just to
: let you give up thinking and follow their instructions. Whatever you are
: saying are the standard stories told everywhere. You think the rich is also
: trying hard to figure out how much to save in Roth IRA? They also don't know
: where they tax rate will go? Do you think Romney would care about the tax
: rate when he pays 14% tax? Do you know the detail on how to achieve that
: rate yourself? Don't just follow the standard instructions. They are
: designed to trap you, not to help you.
:
| E******w
发帖数: 2616 | 23 It is definitely not easy. I do not know how to get 7~8% gain in stock
market, but all the investment ideas (like Roth IRA, traditional IRA, 401K,
529, etc) all force you to put money in the stock market. So it is easy to
see that, if you cannot get positive gain in the stock market, all these
options are traps.
Romney pays 14% only try to please the public to get a shot at presidential
election. He can pay 0% if he wants. Never thinks he has to pay 14%. Also,
never believe someone gives out money (donation) just to lower down the tax
rate. It is one form of money laundry. Even Yang2 Lan2 knows to donate and
then get the money back the other day. They are not really donating,
otherwise it does not make sense, does it?
when
ideas
pay
【在 w***n 的大作中提到】
: A lot of questions. Okay, so after all, it's not that easy to avoid tax when
: government is trying the best to go after that, is it? All the great ideas
: of thinking out of box, don't let government trap/fool you, etc. They all
: sound inspiring and exciting, indeed. But in reality, even Romney has to pay
: 14% tax, not 0%. Considering the huge donation/charity which he gives out
: that brings down the tax rate, his effective "tax+charity" rate out of
: income is not a small percentage. Somehow finding a way to avoid tax
: altogether is beyond my imagination.
: Something maybe off-topic: About that 14%, it sounds like those super rich
: are just parasites taking easy money while paying little tax, so relaxing
| c**********0
发帖数: 624 | 24 Roth has no minimum required distribution and is a good invest,met vehicle
for retirement savings while the earnings can be tax free.
There is a five year requirement, so everyone need a Roth for tax
diversification if you believe modern portfolio theory.
It is definitely not easy. I do not know how to get 7~8% gain in stock
market, but all t........
【在 E******w 的大作中提到】
: It is definitely not easy. I do not know how to get 7~8% gain in stock
: market, but all the investment ideas (like Roth IRA, traditional IRA, 401K,
: 529, etc) all force you to put money in the stock market. So it is easy to
: see that, if you cannot get positive gain in the stock market, all these
: options are traps.
: Romney pays 14% only try to please the public to get a shot at presidential
: election. He can pay 0% if he wants. Never thinks he has to pay 14%. Also,
: never believe someone gives out money (donation) just to lower down the tax
: rate. It is one form of money laundry. Even Yang2 Lan2 knows to donate and
: then get the money back the other day. They are not really donating,
| c**********0
发帖数: 624 | 25 Google Roth IRA, 5 years rule, and non-qualified distribution.
For nonqualified, it should be distributed in the orders of : contribution,
conversions, and earning. |
|
