m******o
发帖数: 774 | 1 本来在试Spring，这中间不知怎么跑到GWT去了，接着又看到vaadin。感觉vaadin非常
的有潜力啊，各位大牛意下如何？ |
b******y
发帖数: 9224 | |
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 3 vaadin looks like swing. For my past experience, swing is great to
achieve functionality. However, swing also has the problem. A professional
page designer usually is not a coder, it's hard to address that gap.
If you want a shiny webpage, vaadin may not be ideal.
If you want an destkop look&feel, it looks like a good choice.
【在 m******o 的大作中提到】
: 本来在试Spring，这中间不知怎么跑到GWT去了，接着又看到vaadin。感觉vaadin非常
: 的有潜力啊，各位大牛意下如何？
|
F****n
发帖数: 3271 | 4 Ironically, some people have been working hard to give Swing a Web-like feel
,so their applet/application will look familiar to browser-love people. Who
want a Web-page to be like a dumb platform GUI? It scares people away:)
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: vaadin looks like swing. For my past experience, swing is great to
: achieve functionality. However, swing also has the problem. A professional
: page designer usually is not a coder, it's hard to address that gap.
: If you want a shiny webpage, vaadin may not be ideal.
: If you want an destkop look&feel, it looks like a good choice.
|
k****u
发帖数: 133 | 5 俺不是大牛，:-)。以前不知道vaadin，刚看了几眼，不过之前用过GWT/gwt-ext/gxt和
flex，和这些RIA framework相比，vaadin最根本的区别就在于它是server side
framework，其它的都是client side framework。从这一点说，vaadin可谓是独辟蹊径
，避开了client side RIA framework面对的client/server数据传送的问题，也就是那
个臭名昭著的DTO pattern。这样的话，就大大简化了vaadin编程。其它的方面，UI
widget很丰富，图形界面设计也很专业，文档齐全，背后有商业公司运作。查了一下
wiki，MySQL的一个主要的初始开发牛人也投资了vaadin的公司。我也看好vaadin，多
谢mydaihao指点。 |
k****u
发帖数: 133 | 6 Ironically, the desktop-like web apps don't scare people away at all, in the
contrary, people are seeking hard for the high interactiveness of the
desktop GUI on today's RIAs. And that's exactly where major RIA frameworks like GWT/
Flex are heading towards.
feel
Who
【在 F****n 的大作中提到】
: Ironically, some people have been working hard to give Swing a Web-like feel
: ,so their applet/application will look familiar to browser-love people. Who
: want a Web-page to be like a dumb platform GUI? It scares people away:)
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 7 Not necessarily, Gmail is more desktop like than Web-like, but popular
nonetheless.
feel
Who
【在 F****n 的大作中提到】
: Ironically, some people have been working hard to give Swing a Web-like feel
: ,so their applet/application will look familiar to browser-love people. Who
: want a Web-page to be like a dumb platform GUI? It scares people away:)
|
m******o
发帖数: 774 | 8 Set aside the question about which one creates better looking result, would
you agree that vaadin seems make web application development a lot easier
compare to any other ways available now? We've been doing jsp(java script)/
struts/EJB for years. Because we used have a whole team working on the jsp/
javascript/struts and now they are gone, now I really feel the pain to make
any changes to the UI because I used work on the EJB side.
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: vaadin looks like swing. For my past experience, swing is great to
: achieve functionality. However, swing also has the problem. A professional
: page designer usually is not a coder, it's hard to address that gap.
: If you want a shiny webpage, vaadin may not be ideal.
: If you want an destkop look&feel, it looks like a good choice.
|
m******o
发帖数: 774 | 9 Set aside the question about which one creates better looking result, would
you agree that vaadin seems make web application development a lot easier
compare to any other ways available now? We've been doing jsp(java script)/
struts/EJB for years. Because we used have a whole team working on the jsp/
javascript/struts and now they are gone, now I really feel the pain to make
any changes to the UI because I used work on the EJB side.
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: vaadin looks like swing. For my past experience, swing is great to
: achieve functionality. However, swing also has the problem. A professional
: page designer usually is not a coder, it's hard to address that gap.
: If you want a shiny webpage, vaadin may not be ideal.
: If you want an destkop look&feel, it looks like a good choice.
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 10 Sure, I think it's a great product. Although I don't think EJB has
anything to do with Web UI layer.
There are 2 areas I would see as potential drawbacks of vaadin.
1. Very high throughput website. Apparently server side engine will
have to load a lot of stuff and keep it in session for this to work.
Compare to pure client side framework or traditional request-based
server side framework. Likely the memory footprint will be higher and
the number of current users will be lower.
2. Harder to achie
【在 m******o 的大作中提到】
: Set aside the question about which one creates better looking result, would
: you agree that vaadin seems make web application development a lot easier
: compare to any other ways available now? We've been doing jsp(java script)/
: struts/EJB for years. Because we used have a whole team working on the jsp/
: javascript/struts and now they are gone, now I really feel the pain to make
: any changes to the UI because I used work on the EJB side.
|
|
|
k***r
发帖数: 4260 | 11 Just to add to the problem list: SEO hostile. |
k****u
发帖数: 133 | 12
Search Engine Optimization? That's a common problem to other RIA frameworks
as well, not just Vaadin. But GWT has some methods to mitigate this problem,
since Vaadin uses GWT for rendering, it should also apply to Vaadin.
【在 k***r 的大作中提到】
: Just to add to the problem list: SEO hostile.
|
k***r
发帖数: 4260 | 13 yeah. I remember it uses the same URL ...
frameworks
problem,
【在 k****u 的大作中提到】
:
: Search Engine Optimization? That's a common problem to other RIA frameworks
: as well, not just Vaadin. But GWT has some methods to mitigate this problem,
: since Vaadin uses GWT for rendering, it should also apply to Vaadin.
|
o**1
发帖数: 6383 | 14 very true for No. 1
for 2. Vaadin has CssLayout, which css can be used to style components.
But still, the separation of markup and content is not as good as Wicket.
easier
script)/
jsp/
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: Sure, I think it's a great product. Although I don't think EJB has
: anything to do with Web UI layer.
: There are 2 areas I would see as potential drawbacks of vaadin.
: 1. Very high throughput website. Apparently server side engine will
: have to load a lot of stuff and keep it in session for this to work.
: Compare to pure client side framework or traditional request-based
: server side framework. Likely the memory footprint will be higher and
: the number of current users will be lower.
: 2. Harder to achie
|
b******y
发帖数: 1684 | 15 server side framework会不会太chatty呢？
【在 k****u 的大作中提到】
: 俺不是大牛，:-)。以前不知道vaadin，刚看了几眼，不过之前用过GWT/gwt-ext/gxt和
: flex，和这些RIA framework相比，vaadin最根本的区别就在于它是server side
: framework，其它的都是client side framework。从这一点说，vaadin可谓是独辟蹊径
: ，避开了client side RIA framework面对的client/server数据传送的问题，也就是那
: 个臭名昭著的DTO pattern。这样的话，就大大简化了vaadin编程。其它的方面，UI
: widget很丰富，图形界面设计也很专业，文档齐全，背后有商业公司运作。查了一下
: wiki，MySQL的一个主要的初始开发牛人也投资了vaadin的公司。我也看好vaadin，多
: 谢mydaihao指点。
|
k****u
发帖数: 133 | 16
What do you mean by "chatty"? Are you referring to too much data exchange
between client and server? It's all AJAX, so the amount of data exchange
between client and server is much less than traditional server side
framework, like JSP/Servlet. However, it may still require more data
exchange than pure client side RIA frameworks. It's a trade-off: that extra
data exchange is the price you pay, but you get all the advantages of server
side frameworks - security, easy to program, simplified logic,
【在 b******y 的大作中提到】
: server side framework会不会太chatty呢？
|
b******y
发帖数: 1684 | 17 那怎么避免DTO pattern呢？
extra
server
【在 k****u 的大作中提到】
:
: What do you mean by "chatty"? Are you referring to too much data exchange
: between client and server? It's all AJAX, so the amount of data exchange
: between client and server is much less than traditional server side
: framework, like JSP/Servlet. However, it may still require more data
: exchange than pure client side RIA frameworks. It's a trade-off: that extra
: data exchange is the price you pay, but you get all the advantages of server
: side frameworks - security, easy to program, simplified logic,
|
k****u
发帖数: 133 | 18 都在server上，还需要DTO吗？
【在 b******y 的大作中提到】
: 那怎么避免DTO pattern呢？
:
: extra
: server
|
b******y
发帖数: 1684 | 19 ft, 怎么样才能既不用DTO，又不会太chatty呢？
i suppose 都在server上 = chatty
【在 k****u 的大作中提到】
: 都在server上，还需要DTO吗？
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 20 Of course not, as long as it uses ajax for frontend.
Only partial page is updated. Actually, it uses GWT
as front end, so the loading part may be slower than GWT,
after loaded, it should be as fast as GWT.
【在 b******y 的大作中提到】
: ft, 怎么样才能既不用DTO，又不会太chatty呢？
: i suppose 都在server上 = chatty
|
|
|
t*******e
发帖数: 684 | 21 Strongly agreed.
To achieve better usability, rich user experience, and probably
productivity, RIA is seemingly a better choice than conventional HTML
development approaches. In portal environments, portlets developed on top
of RIA technologies are more adaptable to the themes/skins of portal
pages. Compromising look and feel is sometimes necessary.
professional
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: vaadin looks like swing. For my past experience, swing is great to
: achieve functionality. However, swing also has the problem. A professional
: page designer usually is not a coder, it's hard to address that gap.
: If you want a shiny webpage, vaadin may not be ideal.
: If you want an destkop look&feel, it looks like a good choice.
|
t*******e
发帖数: 684 | 22 Use JPA/Hibernate conversation along with Optimistic locking to avoid DTO
and detached entity state.
【在 b******y 的大作中提到】
: ft, 怎么样才能既不用DTO，又不会太chatty呢？
: i suppose 都在server上 = chatty
|
t*******e
发帖数: 684 | 23 The sample code looks so close to Wicket and Swing. The advantage it claims
is against declarative UI programming, the direction GWT has steered toward.
I wonder how it is going to accommodate the new release of GWT. ZK is still
more advanced in terms of its POJO programming style and declarative UI. |
F****n
发帖数: 3271 | 24 I have used RIA for a while, and you know what, I think the best RIA is
Swing Applet. I won't do / recommend ajax-based RIA (unless it is really
simple, e.g. as simple supplements to a Web page) and will only do it when
asked.
【在 t*******e 的大作中提到】
: Strongly agreed.
: To achieve better usability, rich user experience, and probably
: productivity, RIA is seemingly a better choice than conventional HTML
: development approaches. In portal environments, portlets developed on top
: of RIA technologies are more adaptable to the themes/skins of portal
: pages. Compromising look and feel is sometimes necessary.
:
: professional
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 25 If JVM runtime is installed as much as flash or .Net, and
the footprint is 2MB and loads instantly. It'll be much more
used than right now. Too bad that's not the case, even JavaFX
doesn't fix it.
【在 F****n 的大作中提到】
: I have used RIA for a while, and you know what, I think the best RIA is
: Swing Applet. I won't do / recommend ajax-based RIA (unless it is really
: simple, e.g. as simple supplements to a Web page) and will only do it when
: asked.
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 26 vaadin looks more pojo than ZK, it's pure java, doesn't even use xml.
how can it not POJO?
For the declartive UI programming part, I think it can be supported
throught the framework too. Parsing a fixed format XML to make some API
calls shouldn't be very hard for them to do. Whether it's an advantage
though, might be case to case.
ZK is more similar to wicket. But until XUL is directly supported by
browsers. I'd prefer HTML as the UI language.
claims
toward.
still
【在 t*******e 的大作中提到】
: The sample code looks so close to Wicket and Swing. The advantage it claims
: is against declarative UI programming, the direction GWT has steered toward.
: I wonder how it is going to accommodate the new release of GWT. ZK is still
: more advanced in terms of its POJO programming style and declarative UI.
|
m******t
发帖数: 2416 | 27 Vaadin looks cool. It brings GWT to the next level. I wish I had evaluated
it before starting this gwt-based
project I'm working on.
I do think though, it can be a double-edged sword that in vaadin the line
between server and client is sort of
blurred. It of course offers a cohesive and fluent paradigm, but at the same
time makes it harder to integrate
with other technologies. |
F****n
发帖数: 3271 | 28 Even that it is still better than ajax-based RIA.
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: If JVM runtime is installed as much as flash or .Net, and
: the footprint is 2MB and loads instantly. It'll be much more
: used than right now. Too bad that's not the case, even JavaFX
: doesn't fix it.
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 29 Can't agree with that. Not one applet is as popular as gmail.
【在 F****n 的大作中提到】
: Even that it is still better than ajax-based RIA.
|
m****r
发帖数: 6639 | 30 really? how about the "do you want to send the exception to microsoft?"
applet?
i use that one all the time.
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: Can't agree with that. Not one applet is as popular as gmail.
|
|
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 31 Yes, it's more popular, but not a java applet.
【在 m****r 的大作中提到】
: really? how about the "do you want to send the exception to microsoft?"
: applet?
: i use that one all the time.
|
F****n
发帖数: 3271 | 32 Gmail is an excellent example that an very simple RIA can work. You don't
need a framework to build Gmail.
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: Can't agree with that. Not one applet is as popular as gmail.
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 33 But you can take far less time to build Gmail with Vaadin,
that's the point. Gmail predates GWT.
【在 F****n 的大作中提到】
: Gmail is an excellent example that an very simple RIA can work. You don't
: need a framework to build Gmail.
|
b******y
发帖数: 9224 | 34 I still like a clean separation of the web/html from the underlying model
and controller.
I think the reason the industry moved away from client/server to web, is
because web is simpler, html people could do html coding and server guys
could do server stuff. They could also work in parallel. But I don't see how
GWT could be suitable for that.
Anyway, I don't have much experience with GWT, but just my personal thoughts
... |
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 35 The client is getting thinner since it's much cheaper to upgrade
and maintain when all stuff is on server side. Plus no worry on
virus.
how
thoughts
【在 b******y 的大作中提到】
: I still like a clean separation of the web/html from the underlying model
: and controller.
: I think the reason the industry moved away from client/server to web, is
: because web is simpler, html people could do html coding and server guys
: could do server stuff. They could also work in parallel. But I don't see how
: GWT could be suitable for that.
: Anyway, I don't have much experience with GWT, but just my personal thoughts
: ...
|
m******o
发帖数: 774 | 36 Exactly, I'm not a UI guy at all so I'm quite uninformed about most of the frameworks
.I've been working with EJB's for the UI team but they are gone now and I have to fix all kinds of bugs even when they are in JSP's. I've hardly written a JSP by myself so you can imagine the frustration. Our product began 10 years ago, it has thousands of JSP's and their styles vary a lot. :o)
Regarding 2, if vaadin is based upon GWT and GWT allows a user-defined css file besides its default one, does that mea
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: Sure, I think it's a great product. Although I don't think EJB has
: anything to do with Web UI layer.
: There are 2 areas I would see as potential drawbacks of vaadin.
: 1. Very high throughput website. Apparently server side engine will
: have to load a lot of stuff and keep it in session for this to work.
: Compare to pure client side framework or traditional request-based
: server side framework. Likely the memory footprint will be higher and
: the number of current users will be lower.
: 2. Harder to achie
|
g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 37 It's a bit difficult. A designer normally uses a WYSIWYG html editor
to get a shiny page. With traditional JSP/html template, it's easy
to preserve the look&feel since you are only making the values dynamic
(with a few css switch here and there).
With Vaadin, obviously the target html page is generated from the components
,
it's hard to match WYSIWYG editor.
frameworks
have to fix all kinds of bugs even when they are in JSP's. I've hardly
written a JSP by myself so you can imagine the frustrati
【在 m******o 的大作中提到】
: Exactly, I'm not a UI guy at all so I'm quite uninformed about most of the frameworks
: .I've been working with EJB's for the UI team but they are gone now and I have to fix all kinds of bugs even when they are in JSP's. I've hardly written a JSP by myself so you can imagine the frustration. Our product began 10 years ago, it has thousands of JSP's and their styles vary a lot. :o)
: Regarding 2, if vaadin is based upon GWT and GWT allows a user-defined css file besides its default one, does that mea
|
m******t
发帖数: 2416 | 38
how
GWT encourages css based styling, and from I read, so does vaadin.
So it may be easier than you imagine to have page designers working
in parallel with developers.
【在 b******y 的大作中提到】
: I still like a clean separation of the web/html from the underlying model
: and controller.
: I think the reason the industry moved away from client/server to web, is
: because web is simpler, html people could do html coding and server guys
: could do server stuff. They could also work in parallel. But I don't see how
: GWT could be suitable for that.
: Anyway, I don't have much experience with GWT, but just my personal thoughts
: ...
|
m******o
发帖数: 774 | 39 I see. GWT still allows you to insert a piece of 'gwt' stuff into a html
file but vaadin does not do that now. If one day vaadin is smart enough to
interpret/combine a WYSIWYG generated html with its own then it would be
perfect I guess.
components
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: It's a bit difficult. A designer normally uses a WYSIWYG html editor
: to get a shiny page. With traditional JSP/html template, it's easy
: to preserve the look&feel since you are only making the values dynamic
: (with a few css switch here and there).
: With Vaadin, obviously the target html page is generated from the components
: ,
: it's hard to match WYSIWYG editor.
:
: frameworks
: have to fix all kinds of bugs even when they are in JSP's. I've hardly
|
b*****t
发帖数: 1276 | 40 Yeah, if you have committed to use GWT, then there is no reason that you
should not use Vaadin.
same
【在 m******t 的大作中提到】
: Vaadin looks cool. It brings GWT to the next level. I wish I had evaluated
: it before starting this gwt-based
: project I'm working on.
: I do think though, it can be a double-edged sword that in vaadin the line
: between server and client is sort of
: blurred. It of course offers a cohesive and fluent paradigm, but at the same
: time makes it harder to integrate
: with other technologies.
|
|
|
b*****t
发帖数: 1276 | 41 regarding the arguments of styling, whatever applies to Flex will apply to
Vaadin.
Also for styling it has two scope:
1. website (web page centric), goodbug arguments apply, designer can not do
whatever he/she thinks the best. he/she can only do some style of mix-in/
integrating.
2. web application (RIA), just make sure overall theme match. The detail UI
component layout usually determined by Product manager of that application.
From FAQ of Vaadin website, this is more for Web application than a |
