w**z
发帖数: 8232 | 1 还是学Java 吧， 虽然facebook will try to compile php to run on VM，并不是说
直接用Java， 但Java clearly is more popular choice of programming language
than others. And more clearly, JVM is the most popular platform.
http://nerds-central.blogspot.com/2012/08/facebook-moving-to-jv
Facebook Moving To The JVM
The Big Guns get behind mlvm. I mean, BIG like GE, and Facebook!
"Are interpreters immoral?" A question I posed some months ago which might
soon become irrelevant. General purpose interpretors are about to go the way
of general purpose punch cards!
Facebook are looking to move PHP onto the JVM. Why, because clock cycles
cost money. Their first approach was hiphop, a PHP to C+++ cross compiler.
Now they are looking into compiling PHP to run on the multi-language VM. The
presence of Facebook engineers at the JVM Language Summit in San-Francisco
along with their interest in implementing PHP using invoke-dynamic on the
JVM is a the shock. The main seismic event will be nothing less than the
complete removal of interpretors from main stream general purpose
programming.
The mlvm is the latest version of the JVM (which by convention seems to have
changed its case). One might think that JSR 292, the community process
which lead to the mlvm, was quite small. It resulted in a single additional
bytecode - invoke dynamic. How can something so small revolutionise the
world?
0 - enough said. Zero is very small, just a line drawn around space. However
, 0 revolutionised mathematics and from that the world. Oddly, the classic
example of 0 in the 1010 code of binary which computers use, is actually a
misnomer. Alan Turing designed the intellectual prototype computer without
zeros as a machine does not need to draw a line around space to know there
is nothing there. However, I digress.
Javascript running at near native speeds.
How is invoke dynamic like zero? It opens the door to doing many things
which go beyond what can practically achieved without it. The mult-language
virtual machine can do for Ruby, PHP, Magik (the implementation on which of
which I am personally working) etc. what V8 has done for Javascript. Take a
slow interpreted system and allow its compilation to machine code without
loosing any of the flexibility and rapid deployment benefits of the original
, interpreted design.
Can It Be Done?
Well, GE are doing it. The millions of lines of code written in Magik will
very soon all be able to run on the mlvm version of Magik. The technical
challenges are non trivial - but they have been overcome. I am very proud to
have been part of that team. If it can be done for Magik then doing it for
PHP, which is a somewhat simpler language (really, I do know as I program in
both: scoping, expression evaluation and first order function handling are
all more complex in Magik than PHP) should be easier.
Will It Be Fast Enough?
Initially, I had my doubts. However, I am starting to believe that it will.
We really can get fully dynamic, interpretor style languages to run close to
C performance. By close, I mean less than 3 times slower. The first time I
got the feeling this was possible came from working on algorithm
visualisation using Javascript. In these tests, Javascript on V8 ran around
3 times slower than pure Java. Now, that is 3 times slower, but not the tens
or hundreds of times slower one might expect from old interpreted
Javascript. Please, do not forget here that Java written well runs as fast
or faster than C.
Javascript on V8 is not PHP on mlvm, but the principle stands. Some of the
just in time compilation systems around the mlvm are very raw and need to be
improved and/or replaced. Working practices around how to implement on the
platform need evolution. However, even at this early stage I have seen it
take code and accelerate it 10:1 over a C based interpretor implementation.
Java 8 - The Next Speed Step
Two things need to change. Firstly, the implementation of method handle
compilation needs to become a more main stream part of the JIT compilation
in the JVM. Second, the paradigms for source to bytecode cross compilation
need to evolve. The key to effective call site use is to keep sites
monomorphic or low count polymorphic. What this means is that at a point of
dynamic dispatch an invoke dynamic instruction is placed in the byte code
created from source code. Now, if the signature of the place that dispatches
to never changes, it is called monomorphic and can be compiled down to a
direct machine code dispatch. Remember that this is assessed at runtime and
can change at any point; it is dynamic as in dynamic language.
If a few different signatures pass by the point of dispatch, then a simple
chain 'if then else' style system can be used. Once the site has more than a
handful of signatures to handle it become megamorphic. In this situation
dispatch is based around lookup trees and hash tables and ends up no more
efficient than more standard interpretor designs. Dispatch under these
conditions is quite tricky to get correct, especially under multi-threaded
conditions; but that is another story. As we, as a programming community,
become more used to invoke dynamic styles we will figure out how to drive
call sites into the leaves of the type tree and thus cause more of them to
be mono or low count polymorphic.
If that is a bit too technical - I will try and put it a different way.
Invoke dynamic allows dynamic languages with runtime dispatch to run as fast
as compiled languages with compile time dispatch configuration. This is
done by making the assumption that dispatch from point X in code Y will
usually be to type A. But, in iterators (for example) dispatch from X might
be to Y,W,Z and a whole bunch of other things. This can be overcome by
reimplementation inheritance replacing traditional call reference
inheritance with copy inheritance. Consider P,Q and R are all sub types of Y
. Each has the same iterator loop. Current common practice is for that loop
to be inherited via call and so P, Q and R call a common code block defined
on Y which does the iteration. On help make the loop monomorphic we can
reimplement the iteration loop on P,Q and R thus (probably) reducing the
number of types seen in each instance of the iterator loop.
Such tricks as this - and many more to be invented - will help make mlvm
code run faster and faster. Lambdas in the JVM are the other secret
ingredient.
Lambdas and why they mater so much.
Lambdas are a bit like an automatic gearbox; they make coding easier but are
not strictly required. I was rather dubious about their addition to Java (
yet all my cars have automatic gearboxes - what gives). I like using lambdas
; they are a great addition to C++ for example. However, C++ is already far
too large for anyone to understand it all perfectly. Java is not yet at that
stage, it is still a relatively small language. However, each major release
brings more features and the tipping point looms. However, lambda's in Java
are being implemented using invoke dynamic. This means that the performance
of a key Java feature will depend on the invoke dynamic framework. As a
direct consequence, that framework within the JVM will be worked on
feverishly and hence will operate super fast; not now, but soon.
So Are Facebook Doing The Right Thing?
Yes! The rise and rise of Javascript over the last 4 years as shown us just
how powerful JIT compilation of once interpreted languages can be. The fall
and fail of complete re-writes has shown us just how unrealistic it is to
completely move a working system from one language to another. Facebook has
a stupid amount of PHP and so it is by far the most sensible thing to port
that to mlvm. Actually it should be pretty easy.
My experience would indicate that porting all of PHP 5.4 to mlvm should take
no more than 6 person years of effort (given the right persons). This is
based on a hybrid model. The best route forward is to make a simple JNI call
system from Java to native PHP. The pre-existing PHP libraries, which are
written in C, can be called via this mechanism from Java. The Java will form
the runtime of the new PHP implementation. PHP its self will compile to
byte code but when it calls down to what would have been a C library it will
call through the Java runtime to the pre-existing C runtime.
Over a period of months or years, those 'call through' points which are hit
frequently can be ported from C to Java and so the whole system be slowly
move from a hybrid one to a pure PHP/mlvm architecture. Such an approach
attracts very low risk and provides a progressive improvement in performance
for Facebook.
The Future:
Facebook have done a good job so far of moving key technologies into the
open source world. I fully expect either them or someone else to port PHP
into the mlvm just like Charles Oliver Nutter and team have done with JRuby.
Redhat's sponsorship of JRuby and its recent hire of Nutter esq. indicates
how the movers and shakers of the IT world are lining up behind the mlvm.
It is also great for those of use who like PHP - as the big easy.
These are exciting times. Soon I expect interpretors and interpreted
langauges to be confined to DSLs and all general purpose coding to be
running in a JIT environment or as up-front compilation. That will be good
for companies, good for performance and good for the planet. Well done JSR
292 and all who worked on her! | p*****2
发帖数: 21240 | | g*********e
发帖数: 14401 | 3 fb 就算 Move to the moon 也没用了 | t********o
发帖数: 555 | 4 lol
good one
【在 g*********e 的大作中提到】
: fb 就算 Move to the moon 也没用了
| v**********r
发帖数: 40 | 5 哈哈
【在 g*********e 的大作中提到】
: fb 就算 Move to the moon 也没用了
| s******o
发帖数: 283 | 6 娃哈哈 :-)
【在 t********o 的大作中提到】
: lol
: good one
| p*****2
发帖数: 21240 | 7
lolhaha
【在 s******o 的大作中提到】
: 娃哈哈 :-)
| T*******i
发帖数: 4442 | 8 准备做应用层的 当然要学Java
但是不要忘了很多人是做驱动的 做操作系统的 学C++来得更合适 而且对好的C+
+程序员 转java轻而易举 反过来却没那么简单 | l*****a
发帖数: 14598 | 9 你。。。
没礼貌
【在 p*****2 的大作中提到】
:
: lolhaha
| a******e
发帖数: 5411 | 10 correct.
c++ seems to be a weak link of indian people.
if you want to stay winning, you gotta know c++.
india people know java very well.
C+
【在 T*******i 的大作中提到】
: 准备做应用层的 当然要学Java
: 但是不要忘了很多人是做驱动的 做操作系统的 学C++来得更合适 而且对好的C+
: +程序员 转java轻而易举 反过来却没那么简单
| | | T*******i
发帖数: 4442 | 11 太不张志气了 对于老印 要迎头痛击 不能想偏安一隅 终有一天 C++的份额会越
来越少的
【在 a******e 的大作中提到】
: correct.
: c++ seems to be a weak link of indian people.
: if you want to stay winning, you gotta know c++.
: india people know java very well.
:
: C+
| y*******g
发帖数: 6599 | 12 驱动不是用c？
很多人做操作系统？
C+
【在 T*******i 的大作中提到】
: 准备做应用层的 当然要学Java
: 但是不要忘了很多人是做驱动的 做操作系统的 学C++来得更合适 而且对好的C+
: +程序员 转java轻而易举 反过来却没那么简单
| h****e
发帖数: 928 | 13 Java学到后面也不见得就比C++容易。
工作需要啥就学啥。 | g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 14 JVM is a great platform. But the dynamic languages running on JVM do not
have great performance either. I guess that's the price to pay for
being dynamic.
PHP, Ruby are fine choices for startups. But they eventually hit
unresolvable
language bottleneck.
way
【在 w**z 的大作中提到】
: 还是学Java 吧， 虽然facebook will try to compile php to run on VM，并不是说
: 直接用Java， 但Java clearly is more popular choice of programming language
: than others. And more clearly, JVM is the most popular platform.
: http://nerds-central.blogspot.com/2012/08/facebook-moving-to-jv
: Facebook Moving To The JVM
: The Big Guns get behind mlvm. I mean, BIG like GE, and Facebook!
: "Are interpreters immoral?" A question I posed some months ago which might
: soon become irrelevant. General purpose interpretors are about to go the way
: of general purpose punch cards!
: Facebook are looking to move PHP onto the JVM. Why, because clock cycles
| g*****g
发帖数: 34805 | 15 C++转Java同样很难，学语言只是最简单的一步。那些架构
没有几年经验根本整不明白。
C+
【在 T*******i 的大作中提到】
: 准备做应用层的 当然要学Java
: 但是不要忘了很多人是做驱动的 做操作系统的 学C++来得更合适 而且对好的C+
: +程序员 转java轻而易举 反过来却没那么简单
| t**********h
发帖数: 2273 | 16 好虫大牛，给我们这些小白讲讲怎么学习java的架构吧
【在 g*****g 的大作中提到】
: C++转Java同样很难，学语言只是最简单的一步。那些架构
: 没有几年经验根本整不明白。
:
: C+
| J*******n
发帖数: 2901 | 17 这都能成为理由。。。。
【在 a******e 的大作中提到】
: correct.
: c++ seems to be a weak link of indian people.
: if you want to stay winning, you gotta know c++.
: india people know java very well.
:
: C+
| j********x
发帖数: 2330 | 18 我不认为c++会被java取代
c++11的新特性实际上解决了c++在system programing以前十几年经验中的很多问题，
性能上来说Java没希望在大规模系统与c++达到类似的级别 | g*********e
发帖数: 14401 | | p*****2
发帖数: 21240 | 20
嗯。确实差不少。
【在 g*********e 的大作中提到】
: c++性能和c也差的不少吧
| s****a
发帖数: 238 | 21 你们都太牛了，优化王子啊
【在 p*****2 的大作中提到】
:
: 嗯。确实差不少。
|
|
