z**********i
发帖数: 9546 | 1 https://bbs.hupu.com/19329965.html
个人看法：不光是时间，努力，也会改变人们的看法。
--------------------------------------------------------
【美国JRs之声】看球20年的美帝老球迷眼中的NBA变化发展：当下真的是黄金时代
由 西布杨 发表在虎扑篮球·湿乎乎的话题 https://bbs.hupu.com/vote
Observations after watching the NBA for 20 years (self.nba)
20年老球迷和大家聊聊NBA。
在我们等待总决赛开始的同时，我决定给大家分享一些20年来NBA里发生的有趣事情
。也许一些论坛上的老球迷能够对我的这份列表有所补充，同时我也会很好奇那些年轻
的球迷们对我下面写的这些内容会有什么看法。
首先有一点我要先提出来，我最初是在1997-1998赛季开始看NBA的，所以下面的故事
看起来是以科比/沙克/卡特为主线的话，这便是因为在我的成长过程中猛龙和湖人是我
最喜欢的球队。
随着时间的进行，舆论总是会被球员本身或者分析师们改写。
当科比和沙克刚开始在一起打球时，舆论的导向都是科比是奥尼尔的腿部挂件，是奥
尼尔在领导着湖人赢球。当时普遍的观点是任何一个其他顶尖的SG（麦迪，艾弗森，卡
特）只要有巅峰沙克作队友，都能赢下那3枚戒指。然而17年后，便出现了像巴克利这
样的人（10年前他经常公开批评科比）说科比才是那个带领奥尼尔赢下3枚戒指的人。
同时现在沙克也总喜欢说纳什在2005和2006年抢走了本属于他的MVP，虽然2005年他
确实有非常大的机会（MVP投票排名第2），但是2006年奥尼尔根本就不是特别出色，事
实上他都没有进入MVP投票的前10，因为他只打了59场比赛，场均只有20/9。当时热火
队真正的MVP应该是韦德，那一年他在MVP最终投票中排名第6。但是沙克喜欢去掩饰这
个事实从而提高自己的地位。
球迷们会忘掉很多事情...而且赢球能改变所有的东西。
曾经有2年的时间里（2004-2006），科比是目前为止全美最讨厌过的运动员。当然，
现在谁也不会记得这些了，但是在那两年的时间里，科比几乎在任何场馆打球都会被嘘
。主要原因有两个：他在场外候审的性侵案，以及人们认为是他排挤走了沙克和菲尔-
杰克逊。而这么久过去后，同时又拿到了2枚总冠军戒指，科比便从NBA里最被憎恨的球
员摇身变成了一位传奇的巨星偶像，而且不可能做错过任何事情（尤其在中国）。同样
的事情也发生在了勒布朗身上，我见证他从英雄变成完完全全的反派（“决定”后），
然后又重新变成了英雄。我有预感同样的事情也会发生在杜兰特身上。
巅峰的沙克在2000年NBA总决赛的6场比赛中场均砍下38分17篮板外加3盖帽，尽管他
是个敏感的大宝贝，1999-2002年的沙克是我活到现在见过的最有统治力的球员。目前
为止我还没有见过任何一个人在季后赛里像这样的不可阻挡。
过去20年里NBA中被遗忘的事情，包括查尔斯-奥克利因为蒂龙-希尔一些没有偿清的
债务而掌掴对方，阿里纳斯在更衣室里的持枪门，在2006到2007赛季开始时NBA尝试使
用了所有人都讨厌的新篮球，勒布朗/Nike没收了乔丹-克劳福德在夏季野球时隔扣勒布
朗的录像带，沙克在2年之内都拒绝提起科比的名字，沙克离开迈阿密时对莱利的鄙视
，沙克离开湖人时对杰里-巴斯的鄙视，以及沙克对大范甘迪的鄙视（看出主题来没有
？），勒布朗在2011年总决赛时对德克的嘲讽；安东尼出现在了“停止告密”的DVD里
，让人们不要去告密；卡尔-马龙对科比老婆的动手动脚以及科比对其的反击，Nas在歌
曲“These Are Our Heroes”中对科比的鄙视；所有人都憎恨卡特，因为他不愿意在
2003年全明星上把自己的首发位置让给乔丹，玛丽亚-凯莉在全明星上穿着乔丹球衣的
演唱；麦迪对自己的毒奶，说终于能够进入季后赛第2轮了，之后便葬送了3-1的领先优
势，在G7中被击败；安东尼-皮勒对加内特脸部的肘击，等等。
人们忘记了邓肯在新秀赛季的第二年便带领马刺获得了总冠军，还是在没有吉诺比利
和帕克的条件下达到的。他在2002和2003年之间蝉联了常规赛的MVP，2003年总决赛时
他场均24/17/5，外加5盖帽。邓肯拿下了5座NBA总冠军，但是却从来没有在史上最伟大
球员的谈论中被提起过，尽管他的MVP数，FMVP数都要比科比多，而且和科比有着一样
多的戒指。
高阶数据彻底的改变了比赛。
2001年的时候，杰里-斯塔克豪斯在投篮命中率40%的情况下场均30分，放到现在的比
赛里，他会被认为是个低效率的毒瘤，而且可能会被无休止的批评。但是在当时，却被
认为是很正常的，他，艾弗森和其他的一些球员都场均接近30分，同时命中率低于45%
。比如艾弗森，在命中率只有42%的情况下拿到了2001年的MVP。当时没有人会去在意命
中率，只要球是被球队里最好的球员出手的。
但是在2008年左右，在勒布朗的崛起以及完全态的巅峰科比现身后，数据革命便开始
了。一些像TrueHoop这样的专栏不喜欢科比，因为他们觉得在高阶数据的角度下，科比
是个被高估以及低效的浪投者，关键时刻可靠性也不是很强。同时，勒布朗在高阶数据
的角度下则是联盟显然的第一人（这在当时并不是个受欢迎的观点）。这最终导致了像
真实命中率等其他高阶衡量标准被篮球迷们所普遍接受，认为这才是“真正”的数据。
德安东尼的7秒进攻（SSOL）改变了联盟。
你要知道在那支2004-2005年炮轰太阳出现之前，联盟中90%的球队都打着以防守为主
的进攻，节奏非常慢，极其有条理，而且单打特别多。炮轰的太阳完全改变了这一点，
并用他们的快节奏打法，小个阵容（斯塔德迈尔中锋，迪奥大前）以及风骚的传球在进
攻端完成了变革。
这最终导致了热火在球员们各自的巅峰打小球阵容（波什中锋，勒布朗大前），并且
也促成了2014年的马刺熟练的用快节奏和传球击败了同样的那支热火。在2017年，如果
你的球队不打这种快节奏的篮球，便会被认为是奇葩（看到了吧：尼克斯仍然还在尝试
三角进攻）。
每个时代的人们都认为自己在看着史上最伟大的球员打球。
当我最开始看NBA的时候，乔丹被认为是毫无疑问的历史第一人，任何敢提科比，邓
肯和其他人的球迷都会被要求闭嘴。20年后，球迷中的地位开始发生了倾斜，现在再说
乔丹超过勒布朗是史上第一人就是值得争辩的了，而不是像过去一样是个结论了。因为
现在球迷们会说乔丹当时有着名人堂级别的帮手，而且竞争也弱一些，以及退役的时间
等等。不管这些是不是真的，现在贬低乔丹的成就而捧高勒布朗的做法是我从来没有想
到过的。
现在确实是历史上最好的联盟。
我知道很多论坛里的人都对他们刚开始看球那会的NBA情有独钟。对于我来说，我仍
然喜欢那些含有艾弗森，卡特360度扣篮以及幼年科比的回忆。但是每当我时不时真正
的去看那些新世纪早期比赛的录像时，我便意识到我们现在真的处在NBA的黄金时期。
在我最开始看NBA时，很多回合都发生在低位，非常多的单打以及糟糕的命中率。
2003-2005年尤其是段奇怪的时间，因为活塞和马刺用绞肉机般的防守把其他的球队困
在原地，每场得分只有70~80分。场下也同样混乱，很多超级球星们都经常陷入麻烦中
（艾弗森，基德的家暴，科比的强奸案，等等）。
而现在，比赛的关键则全部在于速度，节奏和传球，而且超级球星们在场下也都能远
离麻烦，保持健康（库里，勒布朗）。这甚至都还没有提到高清的转播，24小时可得的
录像，更深的天赋池，以及你能够在任何时间任何地点观看比赛的条件。
While we’re waiting for the Finals to start, I thought I’d share some of
the interesting tidbits I have observed in my 20 years of following the
league. Maybe some of the older hoop heads on /r/nba can add on to this list
as well. Likewise, I’m also curious to hear about what some of the younger
fans think about what I have written below.
For context, I started watching the NBA in the middle of the 1997-1998
season. If the stories seem Kobe/Shaq/Vince-centric, its because the Raptors
and the Lakers were my favourite teams growing up.
Narratives are often re-written by players and analysts as the years go by
When Kobe and Shaq were playing together, the narrative was that Kobe
piggybacked Shaq to a ring, and that Shaq carried the Lakers. The thought
back then was that any of the other elite SGs (McGrady, Iverson, Carter)
could also win 3 rings if they had prime Shaq on their team. Fast forward 17
years, and now we have people like Barkley (who was a vocal critic of Kobe
10 years ago) saying that Kobe was the one who carried Shaq to three rings.
Shaq likes to say nowadays that Nash robbed him of two MVPs in 2005 and 2006
. While Shaq had a really good shot in 2005 (he was second in MVP voting),
he wasn’t very good at all in 2006. In fact, he wasn’t even in the top 10
in MVP voting because he only played in 59 games and averaged 20/9. The
actual MVP of that Heat team was D-Wade, who finished sixth in MVP voting
that year. But Shaq likes to gloss over that part to boost his own narrative.
Fans tend to forget a lot…and winning changes everything
There was a period of 2 years (2004-2006) where Kobe was by far the most
hated athlete in all of America. Of course, no one remembers this now, but
he was pretty much booed in every arena during those two years. There were
two specific reasons: his pending assault case, and the perception that he
ran Shaq and Phil Jackson out of town. Over time, and with two rings, he
turned from the most hated figure in the NBA to a mythical basketball icon
who could do no wrong (especially in China). This same thing happened to
LeBron, who I’ve seen go from hero to absolute villain (The Decision), and
then back to the hero. I have feeling the same thing will happen with Durant.
Prime Shaq averaged 38 ppg and 17 rpg with 3 bpg in the 2000 NBA Finals
across 6 games. As thin as his skin is, Shaq from 1999-2002 was by far the
most dominant player I have ever seen in my entire life. I have yet to see
someone that unstoppable in the playoffs.
Forgotten incidents over the last 20 years include Charles Oakley slapping
Tyrone Hill over some unpaid debt, Gilbert Arenas bringing a gun to the
locker room, the NBA trying out a new ball that everyone hated during the
start of the 2006-2007 season, LeBron/Nike confiscating a tape of Jordan
Crawford dunking on LeBron in a summer scrimmage, Shaq refusing to say Kobe
’s name for 2 years, Shaq dissing Pat Riley on his way out of Miami, Shaq
dissing Jerry Buss on his way out of LA, Shaq dissing Stan Van Gundy (notice
a theme?), Lebron making fun of Dirk during the 2011 Finals, Carmelo
appearing on a “Stop Snitchin” DVD telling people to stop snitching, Karl
Malone hitting on Kobe’s wife and Kobe calling him out on it, Nas dissing
Kobe in the song “These Are Our Heroes”, everyone hating Vince Carter for
refusing to give up his starting spot at the 2003 ASG to Michael Jordan,
Mariah Carey’s Jordan dress at the ASG, Tracy McGrady jinxing himself by
saying he was finally ready for the second round while up 3-1 only to lose
in 7 games, Kevin Garnett getting rocked in the face by Anthony Peeler, etc.
People forget that Tim Duncan led the Spurs to an NBA championship in his
sophomore year, without Ginobili and Parker. He won back to back regular
season MVPs in 2002 and 2003. He averaged 24/17/5 with 5 blocks in the 2003
Finals. He won 5 rings but is literally never brought up in GOAT talks even
though he has more MVPs, Final MVPs, and the same amount of rings as Kobe.
Advanced stats have completely changed the game
In 2001, Jerry Stackhouse averaged 30 ppg while shooting 40% from the field.
In today’s league, he would be considered an inefficient chucker and would
probably be criticized non-stop. Back then however, it was considered
normal that he, Allen Iverson and others all averaged in the high 20s while
shooting below 45%. Iverson, for example, won the 2001 MVP shooting 42% from
the field. Nobody gave a crap about shooting figures as long as the shots
were being taken by the best players.
Around 2008 however, with the rise of Lebron and with peak Kobe in full
effect, is when the stats revolution began. Outlets like TrueHoop disliked
Kobe and felt that based on advanced stats, he was an overrated and
inefficient chucker who wasn’t very clutch. Meanwhile, Lebron, by advanced
measures, was by and far the best player in the league (which at the time
was not a popular opinion). This eventually evolved to things like TS% and
other metrics being considered “true” stats of relevance among basketball
fans.
Mike D’Antoni’s Seven Seconds or Less (SSOL) offense changed the league
You have to understand that before the SSOL Suns in 2004-2005, 90% of the
league played a defense oriented game that was slow, methodical and
isolation heavy. The SSOL Suns completely changed this and revolutionized
the offensive side of the ball with their pace and space offense with
smaller lineups (Amare at center, Diaw at PF) and crisp passing.
This eventually evolved into the Heatles playing small ball in their prime (
Bosh at center, Lebron at PF), which eventually evolved in the 2014 Spurs
running a clinic on pace and space to beat that same Heat team. In 2017, if
your team doesn’t play pace and space basketball, its now considered
bizarre (see: Knicks trying to instill the Triangle).
Each generation believes they’re looking at the GOAT
When I first started watching the NBA, MJ was the unquestioned GOAT and
anyone who dared mentioned Kobe, Duncan, and others were virtually shut down
. Fast forward 20 years and now the narrative among fans is starting to skew
. Saying MJ is the GOAT over LeBron is now a debate rather than a foregone
conclusion because fans are writing about how MJ had hall of fame help,
worse competition, time off for retirement, etc. While these may or may not
be true, the fact that MJ’s accomplishments are now being downgraded to
boost LeBron is something I never thought I’d see.
This is the best the league has ever been
I know a lot of people on here look back fondly at whatever time they
started watching the league. For me, I have fond memories of Allen Iverson,
Vince Carter’s 360s, and Frobe. But once in a while I will go back and
actually watch some of the games from the early 2000s and realize that we
are truly living in a golden age of NBA basketball.
The NBA back when I started watching was a lot of post play, isolations, and
terrible field goal percentage. The 2003-2005 era in particular was a weird
time because the Pistons and Spurs were grinding teams to a halt with
scoring dipping to the 70s and 80s. Off the court as well, a lot of
superstars were constantly getting in trouble (AI, Jason Kidd's domestic
abuse case, Kobe's case, etc.).
Nowadays however, the game is all about speed, pacing, passing, and
wholesome superstars who stay out of trouble off the court (Curry, Lebron).
This isn’t even without mentioning the HD coverage, the 24/7 clip
availability, a deep talent pool, and the fact that you can watch games
anywhere and anytime.
[–]miriczivojin 642 指標 1 天前
I'm pretty sure the gun incident is the first thing many people think of
when Arenas comes up.
我很确信持枪门应该是很多人提起阿里纳斯时的第一印象。
[–]BullsB-RAD_IS_NOT_RAD 853 指標 22小時前
I don't think Barkley is serious about this. He's simply pushing Shaq's
buttons.
我不觉得巴克利关于科比的评论是认真的，他只是简单的想要激怒沙克罢了。
[–]KnicksHokageEzio 270 指標 22小時前
Yeah, seems pretty clear to me Chuck just messes with him.
是的，对我来说很明显巴克利只是想和沙克开开玩笑。
[–][OKC] Lonnie Sheltonsnap_wilson 219 指標 21小時前
So, uh, do you want one of those from someone who has been watching it near
40 years? :)
(I actually agree with everything said here, although I would point more to
the elimination of hand-checking and allowing zone defense to changing the
game than the 7SOL Suns.)
所以，额，你们想看看来自一个40年的老球迷对NBA的看法吗？:)
（实际上我对楼主说的所有事情都同意，尽管我想指出，hand-check的取消以及联防
的允许，相比于太阳的7秒进攻来说对联盟变革产生的影响更多。）
[–]Raptorsbrickcitymang 145 指標 22小時前
I see you didn't comment on any rule changes in the league. Hand-checking (
although I see a lot of hand-checking still), illegal defense and defensive
3 seconds, 10 seconds to 8 seconds to clear half court, delay of game after
made basket.
I think all of these helped create the league that we have today, a faster
more flowing game!
我看到楼主并没有对联盟中任何的规则改变做出评价。Hand-check的取消（尽管我现
在还能看到很多的hand-check），违规防守的确定，以及防守3秒，10秒过半场缩短到8
秒，在进球后拖延比赛等等。
我觉得所有的这些都帮助创造出了我们现在这个联盟，一种更快，得分更多的比赛！
[–]sagerinheaven 247 指標 23小時前
I thought the tim duncan>kobe thing was interesting because it reminds me of
how kareem>mj but no one gives kareem that credit either really. That's
because I think kobe and mj are more entertaining.
I also have to think deep down (deeper for some than others) we all
understand talking about who the best all time is is extreme nonsense.
我觉得楼主提到的邓肯>科比这个事情很有意思，因为按同样的逻辑贾巴尔便应该大
于乔丹，但是也没有任何人会给贾巴尔这样的赞誉。我感觉这是因为科比和乔丹的打法
更加有娱乐性。
另外我也觉得，在内心深处（当然有些人有这个觉悟，有些人没有），我们都知道谈
论谁是史上的第一人简直就是胡闹。
[–]Trail Blazersjohnsom3 87 指標 21小時前
Duncan is considered the greatest PF of all time, the idea that he is
underrated is laughable. It's true he isn't very popular, but I've never
seen anyone question his greatness.
邓肯被认为是史上最伟大的大前锋，说他被低估了简直可笑。确实他并不是非常受欢
迎，但是我从来没见过任何质疑他伟大程度的人。
[–]Clippers Bandwagongrpocz 68 指標 23小時前*
Nice post, great read. There are probably too many incidents or narratives
to ever cover all of them haha.
Edit: one thing I would say is the triangle and pace and space are not
mutually exclusive many teams do still run it gsw/spurs
很好的帖子，读的很爽。也许最近20年里的故事和意外太多了，你不可能全部包含在
内，哈哈。
注：有一点我会说的是，三角进攻和快节奏的炮轰并不是相互排斥的，很多球队现在
仍然会打一些三角进攻，比如勇士/马刺。
[–]Cavaliersmjp242 344 指標 23小時前
Had LeBron not returned to Cleveland, instead staying in Miami or going any
where else, I think the majority of the league fans would still greatly
dislike him. I don't believe it's a given Durant returns to good favor. A
lot will depend on where he goes, if anywhere, after GS while in his prime.
And if he wins and keeps winning.
如果勒布朗没有回到骑士，而相反留在了热火或是去了其他的地方，我认为大多数的
球迷仍然会非常的讨厌他。我不认为杜兰特会回到舆论好的一面是既定事实，这很大程
度上会取决于仍在巅峰的他在勇士合同结束后选择去哪里打球，以及他是否能在现在以
及未来一直赢球。 |
|
