y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 1 The Obama administration’s Justice Department and Education Department
issued jointly yesterday some “guidance” for universities on the meaning
of the Supreme Court’s decision last June in Fisher v. University of Texas.
Read more here.....
http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-201
Basically, Obama admin is saying that colleges and universities can lawfully
use race as the factor to admit a student. Bad news if you are Asian and
have kids going to college soon.
Overwhelming evidence in college admissions data show that Asian students
are discriminated against in college admissions - now Asian students need
higher SAT scores, GPAs, and far better academic merits than any other
racial groups, whites, blacks, latinos, etc. to earn the same spot in
college. Asians are essentially competing against each other when applying
some elite colleges and universities.
If this is not anti-American's own value and principle (equality, equal
rights and protection under constitution), then I don't know what is.
Please visit https://www.facebook.com/AgainstAA to learn more. Like the
facebook page and get involved! |
a*****g
发帖数: 19398 | 2 连监狱的 admission 都和 race 相关了
要不广大华裔在大学的 admission 方面也忍一忍
Texas.
lawfully
【在 y*****y 的大作中提到】
: The Obama administration’s Justice Department and Education Department
: issued jointly yesterday some “guidance” for universities on the meaning
: of the Supreme Court’s decision last June in Fisher v. University of Texas.
: Read more here.....
: http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-201
: Basically, Obama admin is saying that colleges and universities can lawfully
: use race as the factor to admit a student. Bad news if you are Asian and
: have kids going to college soon.
: Overwhelming evidence in college admissions data show that Asian students
: are discriminated against in college admissions - now Asian students need
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 3 LZ said that "Asians are essentially competing against each other when
applying some elite colleges and universities." True. That is my observation
, too. But that may indicate that the perceived discrimination is a result
of too many Asian applicants chasing too few available spots, not
necessarily the result of other skin-colored candidates taking spots away
from Asian applicants.
There is demarcation between allowing race as a factor in college admission
and discriminating against an applicant based on his or her race. There is
no proof that the former necessarily or sufficiently leads to the latter. To
declare that we are living in a racially equal society is as delusional as
claiming money does not talk. Race, similar to wealth, remains a factor for
a university to consider the admission fate for a particular candidate.
Neither is the deciding factor. But one among many.
Since the Supreme Court's recent decision allows race to be used as part of
a holistic approach to admitting undergraduate college students, the game
plan remains the same for students: try your best to become an all-around
good student as best as you can.
The Executive branch has a constitutional power to execute the laws which
the Congress has made and which the Court has explained. In this case, the
DOJ simply performed its duty: give guidelines according to recent Court
rulings. This is the way set up by the Constitution.
Surely every U.S. citizen has the right to petition. If I were against the
current practice, I would garner evidence and build a strong case to PROVE
that such racial discrimination exits in a named university/college. The
evidence may include phone records and meeting minutes that document
policies or incidents of racial discrimination, testimony from an admission
officer from a university to provide personal account of what is happening
behind closed doors, an apple-to-apple comparison of two candidates who had
the same or substantially similar background, who applied for the same
department in the same university, and whose admission/rejection can ONLY be
explained by race, etc. Prosecute the case from the ground up and give the
Supreme Court another bite of the apple! Alternatively, carry out campaigns
in states which allow race as a factor, lobby hard and convert one state
after another to follow the model of California.
Still there is a white elephant in the room: what to do with those students
who have not so stellar test scores and who lack the means to move up on the
social ladder? I would propose that whoever provides a practical, logical
and legal solution to this question should be elected the President of the
United States.
Finally, a university funded by and built for the Asian ethnic groups might
be another solution to the problem. I suppose that Asian would not
discriminate against Asians?? I could be wrong. |
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 4 Beijing, I don't really care what you think because we have debated all
these and you just ignored all the evidence.
Overwhelming evidence in college admissions data show that Asian students
are discriminated against in college admissions - now Asian students must
have higher SAT scores, higher GPA's, and better academics than any other
racial groups, Whites, Blacks, and Hispanics, etc. to earn the same spot in
colleges and universities. Asian students are essentially competing against
each other when applying to some elite American colleges and universities.
If this is not against American's own values and principles (equality, equal
rights and protection under the U.S. Constitution), then I don't know what
is.
Please go to the Asian American Against Affirmative Action facebook page and
get involved! |
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 5 忍一忍? I would rather go back to China if I want to 忍一忍
【在 a*****g 的大作中提到】
: 连监狱的 admission 都和 race 相关了
: 要不广大华裔在大学的 admission 方面也忍一忍
:
: Texas.
: lawfully
|
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | |
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 7 I am sure the Supreme Court judges studied the issues (or their clerks did
for them) and reached the current decision. Whatever evidence provided by
Fisher was not convincing enough to change the final outcome. As all
statisticians would tell you: numbers do not tell the whole story. Let alone
the true story. Especially when numbers can be twisted. |
I*****e
发帖数: 7085 | 8 要是其他color的candidates没take spots away from asian，asian的spots被who
take away了？
observation
result
admission
To
as
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: LZ said that "Asians are essentially competing against each other when
: applying some elite colleges and universities." True. That is my observation
: , too. But that may indicate that the perceived discrimination is a result
: of too many Asian applicants chasing too few available spots, not
: necessarily the result of other skin-colored candidates taking spots away
: from Asian applicants.
: There is demarcation between allowing race as a factor in college admission
: and discriminating against an applicant based on his or her race. There is
: no proof that the former necessarily or sufficiently leads to the latter. To
: declare that we are living in a racially equal society is as delusional as
|
I*****e
发帖数: 7085 | 9 supreme court judge哪里敢得罪黑人
alone
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: I am sure the Supreme Court judges studied the issues (or their clerks did
: for them) and reached the current decision. Whatever evidence provided by
: Fisher was not convincing enough to change the final outcome. As all
: statisticians would tell you: numbers do not tell the whole story. Let alone
: the true story. Especially when numbers can be twisted.
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 10 You think that an Asian judge would dare to OFFEND any other race?
【在 I*****e 的大作中提到】
: supreme court judge哪里敢得罪黑人
:
: alone
|
|
|
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 11 Mind you if you can correctly interpret the Fisher's case, the SC didn't say
she has or has no case against U.T.Austin. Instead, the SC told the lower
court to apply the stricter rule to re-evaluate the case.
The Michigan case is still pending and we will see what happen.
alone
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: I am sure the Supreme Court judges studied the issues (or their clerks did
: for them) and reached the current decision. Whatever evidence provided by
: Fisher was not convincing enough to change the final outcome. As all
: statisticians would tell you: numbers do not tell the whole story. Let alone
: the true story. Especially when numbers can be twisted.
|
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 12 So why you think there is no discrimination against Asian students in
college admissions while the overwhelming evidence indicates otherwise?
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: You think that an Asian judge would dare to OFFEND any other race?
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 13 Most likely by another Asian applicant.
One lost spot in the Economy department coupled with one gained spot
in the History department does not equal to DISCRIMINATION one way or the
other. We need apple to apple comparisons.
As LZ has said, Asians compete against Asians. Look at the housing market:
housing price in Carmel Valley or Del Mar is extremely high because Asian
buyers open their pockets willingly and outbid each other. Look at any
computer science or engineering department of a U.S. university, you will
see a lot of Asian faces.
Taking a step back, it is debatable that a perfect or high SAT score is a
reliable indicator of future success in academia or industry. By the same
token, someone with a high SAT score being rejected by a college admission
committee neither tells accurately the whole story about the applicants nor
portrays convincingly a picture of racial discrimination in the process.
An apple-to-apple REAL example would be much better than the so-called
statistics and their self-serving explanations.
【在 I*****e 的大作中提到】
: 要是其他color的candidates没take spots away from asian，asian的spots被who
: take away了？
:
: observation
: result
: admission
: To
: as
|
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 14 Beida, most likely by the another Asian applicant? That is the REAL reason
you can come up with?
What you failed to see or are not willing to admit is many American college
and universities have a quota or ceiling for Asian American students. If
they only allocate a fixed number for Asians, of course Asian students are
going to compete against each other. But why you think the status qua is
reasonable? Why the quota system is moral or event legit? (several states
have outlawed the use of race in college admissions)
Perhaps Beida didn't teach you the critical thinking skills or you just take
what authority told you as the truth?
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: Most likely by another Asian applicant.
: One lost spot in the Economy department coupled with one gained spot
: in the History department does not equal to DISCRIMINATION one way or the
: other. We need apple to apple comparisons.
: As LZ has said, Asians compete against Asians. Look at the housing market:
: housing price in Carmel Valley or Del Mar is extremely high because Asian
: buyers open their pockets willingly and outbid each other. Look at any
: computer science or engineering department of a U.S. university, you will
: see a lot of Asian faces.
: Taking a step back, it is debatable that a perfect or high SAT score is a
|
t*******r
发帖数: 22634 | 15 Any link / info to confirm there exists such quota?
reason
college
take
【在 y*****y 的大作中提到】
: Beida, most likely by the another Asian applicant? That is the REAL reason
: you can come up with?
: What you failed to see or are not willing to admit is many American college
: and universities have a quota or ceiling for Asian American students. If
: they only allocate a fixed number for Asians, of course Asian students are
: going to compete against each other. But why you think the status qua is
: reasonable? Why the quota system is moral or event legit? (several states
: have outlawed the use of race in college admissions)
: Perhaps Beida didn't teach you the critical thinking skills or you just take
: what authority told you as the truth?
|
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 16 The best research on this is probably by Ron Unz in his stats rich paper "
The Myth of American Meritocracy - How corrupt are Ivy League admissions?"
published last year.
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-ame
The paper is a bit long but is worth the time to read.
Also, Prof. Hsu has been discussing the discrimination against Asian
students for more than 10 years as far as i know. see his blog here
http://infoproc.blogspot.com/search?q=asian+quota
【在 t*******r 的大作中提到】
: Any link / info to confirm there exists such quota?
:
: reason
: college
: take
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 17 A quota for racial groups in college admission? If LZ has CURRENT evidence
of the existence of such a quota in any public school or private school with
public funding, he should file a law suit immediately and probably will win
the case in any jurisdiction.
I doubt that LZ has any HARD evidence to support his claim of such a quota
in any university. I am a scientist by training and I would not open my
mouth before seeing any HARD evidence. That may be called critical thinking
or common sense. |
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 18 Beida, one question for you - have you read Unz's paper in its entirety?
with
win
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: A quota for racial groups in college admission? If LZ has CURRENT evidence
: of the existence of such a quota in any public school or private school with
: public funding, he should file a law suit immediately and probably will win
: the case in any jurisdiction.
: I doubt that LZ has any HARD evidence to support his claim of such a quota
: in any university. I am a scientist by training and I would not open my
: mouth before seeing any HARD evidence. That may be called critical thinking
: or common sense.
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 19 LZ, your memory does not serve your well. Last year, I posted a reply
analyzing the article your mentioned. And I ripped apart the misleading
graph shown online:
图标左边是学生的百分比；右边是亚裔适龄人数。In LSAT, number vs. percentage
is a typical reasoning flaw. 该图是典型的曲解数据。
作者依照上图说：亚裔 18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到 2011 增加很多，已经加倍了
。但亚裔学生在绝大部分长春藤学校中的百分比例只是持平，没有太大变化。结论：亚
裔被歧视了。
反驳：
1）白人，黑人，西班牙裔 18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到 2011 可能也增加很快，
，其增长的人数可能远远超过亚裔增长的人数，尤其是西班牙裔。这些族裔的学生在绝
大部分长春藤学校中的百分比例，可能也只是持平，没有太大变化。他们也被歧视了？
2）如果文章作者暗示，亚裔学生在绝大部分长春藤学校中的的百分比例，应该和亚裔
18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到 2011 的增加比例同步增长，那么当亚裔 18 岁到 21
岁的人数达到 1991 年人数的五倍时，长春藤学校的学生应该全部是亚裔才可能避免
种族歧视的标签。
3）仅从华裔人口增加的细节来看，众所周知，大陆来的小留学生数目在 1991 到 2011
爆增。从台湾来的也不会减少。而这些群体刚好部分解释了为什么亚裔 18 岁到 21
岁的人数在 1991 到 2011 增加很多。请问，这些人都是聪明绝顶的该上长春藤学校的
学生吗？相反，很多从大陆来的小留学生，在大陆根本考不上大学！
因此，该图混淆数目和百分比的关系，误导读者，犯了逻辑错误。该文作者不了解亚裔
年龄段人数增长的原因，忽视了其它可以解释统计数字的原因，同样是逻辑错误。
As I said before, statistics does not tell the full story. Therefore,
evidence based on statistics may not be relied as evidence in Court. Data
can be twisted to "support" whatever claims an author has. On the other hand
, hard evidence can't be twisted.
Where is the so-called quota for Asian applicants in a particular U.S.
college?? Such a quota, if proved or presented, will be hard evidence to
support what LZ has tried so HARD to convince others.
【在 y*****y 的大作中提到】
: Beida, one question for you - have you read Unz's paper in its entirety?
:
: with
: win
|
t*******r
发帖数: 22634 | 20 the article contains rich information, and reviews also informative. thanks
for the link, 收藏了
【在 y*****y 的大作中提到】
: The best research on this is probably by Ron Unz in his stats rich paper "
: The Myth of American Meritocracy - How corrupt are Ivy League admissions?"
: published last year.
: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-ame
: The paper is a bit long but is worth the time to read.
: Also, Prof. Hsu has been discussing the discrimination against Asian
: students for more than 10 years as far as i know. see his blog here
: http://infoproc.blogspot.com/search?q=asian+quota
|
|
|
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 21 No problem. Yes, agree it is full of fact based research and statistics.
Any reasonable people would draw the conclusion. Of course, expect imbeciles
like Beida.
thanks
【在 t*******r 的大作中提到】
: the article contains rich information, and reviews also informative. thanks
: for the link, 收藏了
|
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 22 Beida, based on your illogical nonsense, i am pretty sure you didn't read
the full research article by Unz. A quick scan of a picture won't yield the
real powerful argument in the article. Your intellectual deficiency won't
help you obtain a tenure track in any colleges or universities for sure.
graph
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: LZ, your memory does not serve your well. Last year, I posted a reply
: analyzing the article your mentioned. And I ripped apart the misleading
: graph shown online:
: 图标左边是学生的百分比；右边是亚裔适龄人数。In LSAT, number vs. percentage
: is a typical reasoning flaw. 该图是典型的曲解数据。
: 作者依照上图说：亚裔 18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到 2011 增加很多，已经加倍了
: 。但亚裔学生在绝大部分长春藤学校中的百分比例只是持平，没有太大变化。结论：亚
: 裔被歧视了。
: 反驳：
: 1）白人，黑人，西班牙裔 18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到 2011 可能也增加很快，
|
t*******r
发帖数: 22634 | 23 Conclusion isn't that easy. lt seems vary from school to school, from state
to state, from LAC to tech-focused school, and from private school to public
school.
imbeciles
【在 y*****y 的大作中提到】
: No problem. Yes, agree it is full of fact based research and statistics.
: Any reasonable people would draw the conclusion. Of course, expect imbeciles
: like Beida.
:
: thanks
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 24 Mind you, ad hominem is a common logical fallacy. If LZ has some doubt,
please ask LZ's own son for further explanation. |
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 25 Is quota such a hard concept to understand for you, Beida? I suggest you do
some serious study on American education history instead of mindlessly
defending the system.
For instance, google numerus clausus. Numerus clausus ("closed number" in
Latin) is one of many methods used to limit the number of students who may
study at a university. In many cases, the goal of the numerus clausus is
simply to limit the number of students to the maximum feasible in some
particularly sought-after areas of studies.
This is no something new at all. American higher education has used quotas
to limit Jews, women, and other people in color in different period of
American history. It is not by a stretch of imagination that Asians now are
the new Jews. Many statistical studies and books have well documented it.
Of course, no ivies would admit this kind of discrimination. But you can't
argue against the facts that point otherwise.
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: Mind you, ad hominem is a common logical fallacy. If LZ has some doubt,
: please ask LZ's own son for further explanation.
|
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 26 The study is focused on private elite colleges only, such as ivies, MIT,
Caltech. It doesn't intend to cover all.
state
public
【在 t*******r 的大作中提到】
: Conclusion isn't that easy. lt seems vary from school to school, from state
: to state, from LAC to tech-focused school, and from private school to public
: school.
:
: imbeciles
|
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 27 Another barrier to a completely clear picture is ivies don't release their
detailed admission data and what criteria they are using. Many prominent
scholars have called for more transparency and making it public. So far,
these schools have not done so. One would ask why not? why not release
such important information to settle the argument once and for all if ivies
haven't done anything wrong.
Many studies have used the numbers not directly from these schools. Not
ideal but since these schools don't provide data many stats have to be
obtained and verified from other sources.
All ivies want to keep their data secret and keep their admission process in
a black box. |
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 28 Evidence does not equal wishful thinking. |
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 29 People here can choose to keep silent or look away. But this problem is not
going away until Asians in this country stand up and voice strong opposition
like the Jews did in the early 20th century, and like the Blacks did in the
civil rights movement. Blacks/Jews or any other groups won't speak for
Asian, neither should they. Asians have to speak for themselves.
If this is your country, act like it's yours. We are not here as second
citizens. Think about the next generation - do you wish your kids subject
to this kind of prejudice and discrimination in this day and age? |
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 30 LZ, you need to study the American legal system before using the words such
as evidence or proof. Without DIRECT evidence, your case against
discrimination is like Swiss cheese: it's full of holes.
Google "Twombly" or "Iqbal" or "well-pleaded complaint rule."
In the Twombly case, the Supreme Court established a heightened pleading
requirement for Federal civil cases, requiring that plaintiffs include
enough facts in their complaint to make it plausible — not merely possible
or conceivable — that they will be able to prove facts to support their
claims. Originally, this Rule 8 requirement was only applied in antitrust
cases under Federal jurisdiction.
In the Iqbal case, the Supreme Court confirmed that the Twombly ruling
applies to all civil suits, not just antitrust cases or complex cases.
A particular issue highlighted by both cases is how to treat facts alleged
based on "information and belief." Take the Twombly case for example.
Twombly and Marcus brought a class-action lawsuit alleging that Bell
Atlantic and a number of other large telephone companies had engaged in anti
-competitive behavior in violation of § 1 of the Sherman Act. Specifically,
the plaintiffs alleged that these large telephone companies had acted in
order to disadvantage smaller telephone companies and charge consumers more
by, for example, refraining from entering markets where another large
company was dominant (thereby preventing a price war). The going theory was
that these big telephone companies SECRETLY reached an agreement among
themselves so that each will maintain dominance in its home market without
intruding into another's. This complaint filed by the plaintiffs was based
on "information and belief." The complaint eventually failed in the Court
because it did not support that allegation with sufficient subsidiary
FACTUAL allegations. A possible conspiracy is not a plausible one in the
eyes of the law without HARD evidence.
When an accusation of racial discrimination is based on an existing quota in
tens, if not thousands, of universities in the U.S., the complaint has to
include some FACTUAL allegation that this so-called quota is real, not
fictional, that it could be proved by phone records, meeting minutes,
witness testimonies, or that there is at least one REAL case of someone
applying the quota to discriminate against certain people! Name the
university, name the admission officer, name the applicant, name the year.
If you have the above EVIDENCE, great. File in the state or federal court of
your choice and wait for the justice. If not, keep digging, but please
refrain from relying on statistics! The Twombly case tried to use statistics
as base or foundation to support their complaint against a possible
conspiracy, but they failed to meet the required pleading standard. Many
people believe in the Bible. But no one has been able to PROVE that the
Bible is true. |
|
|
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 31 Beida, i am not sure what is your agenda here using these irrelevant cases
to prove there is no discrimination against Asians in college admissions.
Statistical Evidence of Discrimination Against Asians
Three main sources of data contend that selective colleges discriminate
against Asians
First, some top colleges have in the past (though not recently) released
detailed admissions data. Second, in 1996 California banned state
universities from considering race and ethnicity in admissions decisions.
The result is a natural experiment where you can see what happens to the
number of Asians accepted before and after this decision. Finally,
researchers have tried to quantify whether the number of high performing
Asians has been increasing and whether that has corresponded to more
placements in selective schools.
The most cited, well-researched evidence that it’s harder for Asians to get
into top colleges is presented by Princeton professor Thomas Espenshade and
his collaborator Alexandria Radford in their 2009 book No Longer Separate,
Not Yet Equal. In this book, the researchers analyzed the complete
application histories of eight “elite” universities in 1997 (the last year
these schools released this information). While the data is over 15 years
old, it’s the most complete dataset publicly available.
Espenshade and Radford use the 1997 data to show the overall acceptance
rates by race and class at public and private universities with highly
selective admissions criteria. We will focus on the private institutions
data since most elite schools fit in that category. As the numbers show,
Asians have the lowest acceptance rates at the selective private
universities in this sample. The authors then lay out how admissions rates
vary by race and SAT score:
Asians have the lowest acceptance rate for each test score bucket.
While these descriptive statistics are useful, there could be additional
factors at play. The authors next build up a regression model that controls
for the applicants’ state of residence and academic performance. Model 5
shows the impact of race on likelihood of admissions after controlling for
these factors at these private schools. As the model shows, Asian applicants
have 67% lower odds of admission than white applicants with comparable test
scores.
Finally, the authors convert these findings into more intuitive results.
With white students as a baseline, they look at how much of a bump or
penalty students receive in terms of SAT scores on the basis of their race
They find that being Asian is the equivalent of a 140 point score penalty on
your SAT when applying to top private universities. For example, a white
student that scored 1360 on the SATs would be on equal footing with an Asian
student that scored 1500.
Ultimately, the authors come short of making any conclusions about whether
Asians are discriminated against. Their data indicates that Asians needed
higher standard test scores than whites to get accepted to top schools in
1997, but this doesn’t consider other parts of a “holistic” admissions
process such as athletic prowess, legacy status (being the child of an alum)
, or quality of admissions essays and recommendation letters.
The next piece of evidence frequently cited in the debate is the the
admissions data of public universities in California (Berkeley, UCLA, UCSD,
Davis, etc). In 1996 it became illegal for these schools to consider race in
their admissions criteria. This created a natural experiment showing what
happens to the number of Asian students at a school when admissions officers
are not allowed to consider that they are Asian.
Finally, the fact that the growth in the Asian population has not been
reflected in their numbers at top schools is cited as well. Not only have
the the number of college-aged Asians increased in the last two decades, the
number of academically high performing Asians has as well. This viewpoint
is summarized quantitatively by Ron Unz, founder of The American
Conservative - a publication that is quite vocal about this issue: The data
Unz has compiled shows that while the number of college aged Asians has
increased dramatically, their presence at top schools has shrunk or remained
flat. By contrast, Cal Tech, which has a strictly race neutral admissions
policy, has kept pace with the growth in the the Asian population. (This is
also true of the University of California school we previously examined).
Unz also contends you should see a lot more Asians at these Ivy League
schools during this time, because they were kicking ass and taking names
academically:
"Asians were less than 10 percent of U.S. Math Olympiad winners during the
1980s, but rose to a striking 58 percent of the total during the last
thirteen years 2000–2012. For the Computing Olympiad, Asian winners
averaged about 20 percent of the total during most of the 1990s and 2000s,
but grew to 50 percent during 2009–2010 and a remarkable 75 percent during
2011–2012.
….
"The statistical trend for the Science Talent Search finalists, numbering
many thousands of top science students, has been the clearest: Asians
constituted 22 percent of the total in the 1980s, 29 percent in the 1990s,
36 percent in the 2000s, and 64 percent in the 2010s.
…
“Although Asians represented only about 11 percent of California high
school students, they constituted almost 60 percent of the [National Merit
Scholars]… In Texas, Asians are just 3.8 percent of the population but were
over a quarter of the NMS semifinalists in 2010, while the 2.4 percent of
Florida Asians provided between 10 percent and 16 percent of the top
students… Asian over-representation was enormous [in New York]: the Asian 7
.3 percent of the population—many of them impoverished immigrant families—
accounted for almost one-third of all top scoring New York students.”
According to standardized tests and talent competitions, there is strong
evidence that Asian Americans aren’t just doing pretty well, they’re
completely dominating.
Many Asians believe they are being held to a different academic standard
than whites, blacks, and latinos. Universities should release the data that
puts the debate to rest. But if Asians are under represented on American
college campuses relative to what their academic performance would predict,
this seems like the sort of discrimination that history would ultimately
judge very harshly.
History always repeats itself.... |
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 32 I just realized that LZ put the graph which I ripped apart on his FB front
page. Although a GOOD picture is more than a thousand words, a MISLEADING
picture is worse than a thousand lies.
Number vs. Percentage is a common reasoning fallacy that has been drilled in
logic reasoning tests. |
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 33 Beida, don't flatter yourself. You didn't rip anything apart other than
showing your ignorance on Asian's outstanding performance. The point is not
just population growth, even though you tried hard to mislead. The point
is Asian students are under represented on American college campuses,
especially in elite schools like ivies, relative to what their academic
performance would predict. It clearly shows in the stats before and after
the passage of proposition in CA which banned the use of race in public
college admission. It also shows in schools like Caltech which race is not
in the consideration totally. |
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | |
u*****7
发帖数: 746 | 35 支持！
not
opposition
the
【在 y*****y 的大作中提到】
: People here can choose to keep silent or look away. But this problem is not
: going away until Asians in this country stand up and voice strong opposition
: like the Jews did in the early 20th century, and like the Blacks did in the
: civil rights movement. Blacks/Jews or any other groups won't speak for
: Asian, neither should they. Asians have to speak for themselves.
: If this is your country, act like it's yours. We are not here as second
: citizens. Think about the next generation - do you wish your kids subject
: to this kind of prejudice and discrimination in this day and age?
|
u*****7
发帖数: 746 | 36 我觉得作者这个图其实很能说明问题，只是解释和分析不够深入，有点jump into
conclusion太快，所以易引起反驳。我来试着反驳一下你的反驳。
按你说的，这是作者的结论：作者依照上图说：亚裔 18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到
2011 增加很多，已经加倍了。但亚裔学生在绝大部分长春藤学校中的百分比例只是持
平，没有太大变化。结论：亚裔被歧视了。我觉得这个结论是对的。
你的反驳（1）：白人，黑人，西班牙裔 18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到 2011 可能
也增加很快， ，其增长的人数可能远远超过亚裔增长的人数，尤其是西班牙裔。这些
族裔的学生在绝大部分长春藤学校中的百分比例，可能也只是持平，没有太大变化。他
们也被歧视了？
常春藤名校招生是号称不考虑race的，所以应该跟族裔人口基数无关，跟申请人客观上
qualify没有它的入学标准有关。如果一个常春藤名校每年招1000新生，并且纯粹以每
个申请人是否qualify德智体美劳综合因素来衡量的，那么如果一个族裔的适龄申请人
大大增加比如说翻倍了，增加的那部分人里qualify这个招生标准的会不会更多，这是
个需要进一步分析的问题。如果是同样招生标准，亚裔人口翻倍前亚裔100个人合格，
亚裔人口翻倍后亚裔200个人合格，那么“亚裔学生在绝大部分长春藤学校中的百分比
例只是持平”就非常大的可能是不合理的。你说的不错，西班牙裔人口增加也很多，但
大家都知道老墨增加的人口不少是偷渡过来的，家庭环境和对教育的重视程度都不如亚
裔新增加的人口，那么如果同是新增加了人口100万，哪个族裔的新增加的100万申请人
里qualify的人会更多呢？我觉得亚裔新增加移民会完胜老墨新增加移民，当然这点需
要数据来进一步论证。其实楼主提供的link文章里就提到了一个很好的数据：Asians
were less than 10 percent of U.S. Math Olympiad winners during the 1980s,
but rose to a striking 58 percent of the total during the last thirteen
years 2000–2012. For the Computing Olympiad, Asian winners averaged about
20 percent of the total during most of the 1990s and 2000s, but grew to 50
percent during 2009–2010 and a remarkable 75 percent during 2011–2012. 这
一点充分说明，亚裔不仅是事实上人口基数变大的问题，也是整体申请人竞争力也变大
了的问题。简单点来说，如果别的族裔人口都没变，就亚裔和西班牙裔人口剧增了，常
春藤名校里亚裔和西班牙裔的比例都应该增高，但亚裔应该会增加得更多。比如人口增
加后亚裔从100人qualify增加到200人qualify，西班牙裔从50人qualify变成了60人
qualify，总共1110人qualify了，但1000名新生里还是只招了100名亚裔，sort到末尾
淘汰的110人里100人都是亚裔，难道不能说明什么问题吗？
你的反驳（2）：如果文章作者暗示，亚裔学生在绝大部分长春藤学校中的的百分比例
，应该和亚裔 18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到 2011 的增加比例同步增长，那么当亚
裔 18 岁到 21岁的人数达到 1991 年人数的五倍时，长春藤学校的学生应该全部是亚
裔才可能避免种族歧视的标签。
作者并没有象你这样的暗示，是你理解偏差。简单情况下，如果亚裔人口增加5倍，如
果招生标准不变，亚裔会从100人qualify变成500人qualify，但不是说别的族裔就没人
qualify了。所有qualify的按综合评定分数一sort，取前1000名，我不相信亚裔那新
增加的400qualfy的人都会sort到最末去。其结果亚裔应该是被接受的比例更大，但不
会是100%全是亚裔。如果不服气，名校可以调整招生标准，但只要不把race放进去我们
都不怕。
你的反驳（3）：仅从华裔人口增加的细节来看，众所周知，大陆来的小留学生数目在
1991 到 2011爆增。从台湾来的也不会减少。而这些群体刚好部分解释了为什么亚裔
18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到 2011 增加很多。请问，这些人都是聪明绝顶的该上
长春藤学校的学生吗？相反，很多从大陆来的小留学生，在大陆根本考不上大学！
新移民里不管多少人是在大陆根本考不上大学的，甚至在美国都只能上社区大学的，都
doesn’t matter. 但如果新来的人里面有达到名校综合标准的，就是亚裔整体qualify
的数目增大了。也许来了10万人，只增加了100人qualify该名校，那也是多了100个合
格的亚裔过了该名校标准。如果你不能证明别的族裔里qualify的申请人也跟亚裔一样
增加了同样比例，那么亚裔学生在名校百分比例只是持平就有问题。
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: LZ, your memory does not serve your well. Last year, I posted a reply
: analyzing the article your mentioned. And I ripped apart the misleading
: graph shown online:
: 图标左边是学生的百分比；右边是亚裔适龄人数。In LSAT, number vs. percentage
: is a typical reasoning flaw. 该图是典型的曲解数据。
: 作者依照上图说：亚裔 18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到 2011 增加很多，已经加倍了
: 。但亚裔学生在绝大部分长春藤学校中的百分比例只是持平，没有太大变化。结论：亚
: 裔被歧视了。
: 反驳：
: 1）白人，黑人，西班牙裔 18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到 2011 可能也增加很快，
|
I*****e
发帖数: 7085 | 37 ding
【在 u*****7 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得作者这个图其实很能说明问题，只是解释和分析不够深入，有点jump into
: conclusion太快，所以易引起反驳。我来试着反驳一下你的反驳。
: 按你说的，这是作者的结论：作者依照上图说：亚裔 18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到
: 2011 增加很多，已经加倍了。但亚裔学生在绝大部分长春藤学校中的百分比例只是持
: 平，没有太大变化。结论：亚裔被歧视了。我觉得这个结论是对的。
: 你的反驳（1）：白人，黑人，西班牙裔 18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到 2011 可能
: 也增加很快， ，其增长的人数可能远远超过亚裔增长的人数，尤其是西班牙裔。这些
: 族裔的学生在绝大部分长春藤学校中的百分比例，可能也只是持平，没有太大变化。他
: 们也被歧视了？
: 常春藤名校招生是号称不考虑race的，所以应该跟族裔人口基数无关，跟申请人客观上
|
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 38 Good counter arguments and great analysis. Bump!
【在 u*****7 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得作者这个图其实很能说明问题，只是解释和分析不够深入，有点jump into
: conclusion太快，所以易引起反驳。我来试着反驳一下你的反驳。
: 按你说的，这是作者的结论：作者依照上图说：亚裔 18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到
: 2011 增加很多，已经加倍了。但亚裔学生在绝大部分长春藤学校中的百分比例只是持
: 平，没有太大变化。结论：亚裔被歧视了。我觉得这个结论是对的。
: 你的反驳（1）：白人，黑人，西班牙裔 18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到 2011 可能
: 也增加很快， ，其增长的人数可能远远超过亚裔增长的人数，尤其是西班牙裔。这些
: 族裔的学生在绝大部分长春藤学校中的百分比例，可能也只是持平，没有太大变化。他
: 们也被歧视了？
: 常春藤名校招生是号称不考虑race的，所以应该跟族裔人口基数无关，跟申请人客观上
|
t*******r
发帖数: 22634 | 39 藤校之间也有差别, 按文中的说法, Caltech 相对比较友善, 整个加州系统都相对友善。
【在 y*****y 的大作中提到】
: The study is focused on private elite colleges only, such as ivies, MIT,
: Caltech. It doesn't intend to cover all.
:
: state
: public
|
t*******r
发帖数: 22634 | 40 所以我觉得虎妈的书, 其实是政治不正确的。
另外大部分藤校有坑爹 LAC, 去掉可能更说明问题, 但这个数据通常不在入学数据里。
。。
【在 I*****e 的大作中提到】
: ding
|
|
|
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 41 Caltech is not ivy. In fact, if you look at the data, ivies are in lock
steps when it comes to discriminating against Asian students. Unz's detailed
analysis of admission data from last decades clearly shows the hidden quota
. Somehow every ivy's Asian admission numbers are similar and pegged around
16% year over year.
The reason CA system is perceived friendly to Asian students is largely due
to prop 209 passed by the state in 1996. Proposition 209 (also known as the
California Civil Rights Initiative) is a California ballot proposition which
, upon approval in November 1996, amended the state constitution to prohibit
state government institutions from considering race, sex, or ethnicity,
specifically in the areas of public employment, public contracting or public
education. A large Asian population in CA certainly also helped. More
people result in more political clout. However, I heard in recent years,
Asian numbers have been down again in several CA system schools because
these schools once again are using different admission standards, possibly
using the race factor again under the cover of the "holistic" approach.
善。
【在 t*******r 的大作中提到】
: 藤校之间也有差别, 按文中的说法, Caltech 相对比较友善, 整个加州系统都相对友善。
|
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 42 Tiger mom's book actually reinforced the negative Asian stereotype. I think
it did a disservice to Asian students and parents.
【在 t*******r 的大作中提到】
: 所以我觉得虎妈的书, 其实是政治不正确的。
: 另外大部分藤校有坑爹 LAC, 去掉可能更说明问题, 但这个数据通常不在入学数据里。
: 。。
|
t*******r
发帖数: 22634 | 43 对, 这个我认为是最重要, 希望每个州都能通过类似 prop 209 的法律。
detailed
quota
around
due
the
which
prohibit
【在 y*****y 的大作中提到】
: Caltech is not ivy. In fact, if you look at the data, ivies are in lock
: steps when it comes to discriminating against Asian students. Unz's detailed
: analysis of admission data from last decades clearly shows the hidden quota
: . Somehow every ivy's Asian admission numbers are similar and pegged around
: 16% year over year.
: The reason CA system is perceived friendly to Asian students is largely due
: to prop 209 passed by the state in 1996. Proposition 209 (also known as the
: California Civil Rights Initiative) is a California ballot proposition which
: , upon approval in November 1996, amended the state constitution to prohibit
: state government institutions from considering race, sex, or ethnicity,
|
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 44 I agree. In fact, 7 states - Arizona, California, Florida, Michigan,
Nebraska, New Hampshire and Washington - have banned racial preferences in
college admissions.
However, the people against the ban are trying to overturn the law in
several states. In CA, the challenge has been defeated several times. But I
am sure it will come back again and again. The MI case which the state ban
is challenged is pending at the Supreme Court.
Note state laws can only apply to public school system within the state. If
the SC bans it, then all states have to comply. Some argues private schools
such as ivies don't have to comply. I beg to differ - many private schools
like Harvard enjoy many tax exempt benefits from the state and fed
governments. They can't be above the law. The best result is SC passes the
statue. But it won't go down without a fight.
For the sake of Asian Americans, we must fight, must be vocal and voice our
strong opposition to using race in college admissions.
【在 t*******r 的大作中提到】
: 对, 这个我认为是最重要, 希望每个州都能通过类似 prop 209 的法律。
:
: detailed
: quota
: around
: due
: the
: which
: prohibit
|
t*******r
发帖数: 22634 | 45 我同意 ivy 也不能例外。。。但现实的说, ivy 可能需要高院通过法律, 门槛相对更
高。。。当然, 呼吁并不需要总是看着门槛。。。
I
ban
If
schools
schools
【在 y*****y 的大作中提到】
: I agree. In fact, 7 states - Arizona, California, Florida, Michigan,
: Nebraska, New Hampshire and Washington - have banned racial preferences in
: college admissions.
: However, the people against the ban are trying to overturn the law in
: several states. In CA, the challenge has been defeated several times. But I
: am sure it will come back again and again. The MI case which the state ban
: is challenged is pending at the Supreme Court.
: Note state laws can only apply to public school system within the state. If
: the SC bans it, then all states have to comply. Some argues private schools
: such as ivies don't have to comply. I beg to differ - many private schools
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 46 1) Based on your hypothesis, the Spanish population may become more retarded
when years goes by, which is absurd. You see, if you look at the sheer
number of increase of the Spanish population, it probably trumps any
increase in NUMBER for other ethnic groups. Their NUMBER probably increased
by at least 5 times from 1991 to 2011. However, the enrollment of Hispanic
students in Ivy league school does not increase. This would be a proof of
discrimination against the Hispanic group, according to the rationale
proposed in the online article. If no such discrimination, then another
alternative explanation is that the whole Hispanic ethnic group becomes more
retarded and produces lower percentage of genius to qualify for the Ivy
schools.
2) If there are 100 more eligible Asian applicants for Ivy league in 2011
than in 1991, then there are probably more than 100 more eligible Hispanic
applicants for IVY league in 2011 than in 1991 even when considering the non
-proven Genius index or IQ difference proposed by you. The increase in the
NUMBER for the Asian group is coupled with the much bigger increase in the
NUMBER for the Hispanic group. If it is harder for the Asian applicants to
get into the Ivy league in 2011 than in 1991, it is equally, if not to a
higher degree, harder for the Hispanic group in 2011 than in 1991. You
cannot use a tunnel vision and focus on Asian and Asian only. Be an American!
( 所有qualify的按综合评定分数一sort，取前1000名，我不相信亚裔那新
增加的400qualfy的人都会sort到最末去。) Neither would the increased eligible
applicants from other ethnic groups. That is the point of NUMBER vs. NUMBER
and PERCENTAGE vs. PERCENTAGE. More eligible Asian, right? More eligible
Hispanics! Why should all newly eligible Hispanics go all the way to the
bottom? But there are ONLY 1000 seats with many more eligible candidates
from ALL the races. It is more competitive and HARDER to get in fro EVERYONE
, not only for Asians! What is constant or near constant would be the
PERCENTAGE of admitted student from each ethnic groups in each university if
all ethnic groups grow at the same rate and no sharp increase in average
IQ in a particular group. I hardly see that there is anything wrong with
increased difficulty getting into a good school.
3)Further, in the online article, the author says:
"And since the beginning of the 1990s, Caltech’s Asian-American enrollment
has RISEN almost EXACTLY IN LINE WITH THE GROWTH of Americas underlying
Asian population, with Asians now constituting nearly 40 percent of each
class (See chart on p. 18)." I did not put words into the author's mouth.
That is his words and the implication according to the chart is that ALL Ivy
schools should increase Asian-American enrollment almost exactly in line
with the growth of American's underlying Asian population. Reading
comprehension, readers. I read the whole article!
3) Other scholars have questioned the way Mr. Unz collected and analyzed the
ethnic data among different schools. Professor Mertz from University of
Wisconsin has published an article pointing out numerous mistakes made by Mr
. Unz when analyzing all kinds of name lists from Olympiad winners to
freshmen in college. Here is the link:
http://andrewgelman.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Mertz-on-Unz
Comment by another blogger:
http://andrewgelman.com/2013/03/06/18150/
Analysis by still another writer:
http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2013/02/why-has-ron-unz-st
I am not the only one who questioned the way Mr. Unz published and analyzed
the data. As I said before, data can be twisted by an author to suit
whatever purpose he or she might have. Truth be told, the data and
conclusions of Mr. Unz' article can never be used as evidence in a court
hearing.
Another comment about number vs. percentage:
"
esmith
• 10 months ago △ ▽
Can't comment about the article, but the chart, and particularly the right
scale, are misleading.
* In 4 out of 8 Ivies, Asian share of enrollment has increased more than 50%
since 1990.
* Why are we looking at _absolute_ numbers of Asians vs. _relative_ shares
of enrollment? Total college age population of the United States grew 13%
from 1990 to 2011.
* It is natural for Caltech to have a higher Asian share of enrollment,
compared to Ivies. Asians are overrepresented in STEM fields, and Caltech
specializes in STEM. Furthermore, Caltech is located in California.
California has the second highest Asian share of population in the country (
after Hawaii) at triple the national average.
Compare Caltech to MIT. They have similar profiles, Caltech is 40% Asian,
MIT is only 25% Asian. The share of Asians in Caltech has boosted by a
factor of 1.6 by geographical factors. Then compare Caltech (STEM
specialization, 40% Asian) to Stanford (unspecialized, 20% to 25% Asian). On
the basis of these numbers, 15-18% Asian share in the Ivies appears
reasonable".
Link:
http://infoproc.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-myth-of-american-merit
In short, analyze the data as what an academic would do, not what a
political activist would do.
【在 u*****7 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得作者这个图其实很能说明问题，只是解释和分析不够深入，有点jump into
: conclusion太快，所以易引起反驳。我来试着反驳一下你的反驳。
: 按你说的，这是作者的结论：作者依照上图说：亚裔 18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到
: 2011 增加很多，已经加倍了。但亚裔学生在绝大部分长春藤学校中的百分比例只是持
: 平，没有太大变化。结论：亚裔被歧视了。我觉得这个结论是对的。
: 你的反驳（1）：白人，黑人，西班牙裔 18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到 2011 可能
: 也增加很快， ，其增长的人数可能远远超过亚裔增长的人数，尤其是西班牙裔。这些
: 族裔的学生在绝大部分长春藤学校中的百分比例，可能也只是持平，没有太大变化。他
: 们也被歧视了？
: 常春藤名校招生是号称不考虑race的，所以应该跟族裔人口基数无关，跟申请人客观上
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 47 Mr Unz is the author of the online article. He is a Jew and a prominent
political activist. The gist of that article seems to be that pro-Jewish
people control the college admission process, favor the Jewish Whites, and
discriminate against non-Jewish Whites and Asians. He proposed that there is
a hidden quota used by most Ivy league schools to fix the enrollment
percentage for each ethnic groups, and nothing else can explain distribution
pattern of the enrollment data he got. The method he used to assign the
ethnicity to each admitted student is by looking at the last name. He did
the same "name checking" for the team members of the U.S. International
Olympiad team.
After receiving numerous criticism for the flawed method he used to assign
ethnicity and the mistakes he made for enrollment data of different school,
Mr. Unz refused to correct his mistakes and stood by his previous
conclusion: there is a hidden quota in college admission process in the Ivy
league. |
t**********2
发帖数: 1704 | 48 歧视当然存在。连大方向都把握不住的人，逻辑玩得再妙也无益。其实我很想骂人，但
是忍了。 |
b*x
发帖数: 5456 | 49 又见脑残北大。 还是那句， 把你家的TJ的名额让给老黑， 把你的五毛家产捐出来
给老黑，
你自己搬家到黑墨区来bring more diversity。 否则不要在这做鼓吹AA这种断子绝孙
的勾当。 |
b*x
发帖数: 5456 | 50 总结一下北大的观点， 北大认为， 有更多的中国人进top university， 是不对的，
应该是让更多其他种族的人进top university， 占据高端的工作市场， 而所有中国人
都应该比他活的还惨， 最好SAt满分都去餐馆洗碗， 这样可以体现diversity和他和他
儿子的优越性。 当然他忘了， 如果Harvard只有他儿子一个中国人， 那他儿子就和
今天那个路虎男一样， 只有被outnumber的命， 当然， 我们广大正常中国人已经把
他归入黄皮黑心的脑残行列了。 |
|
|
h**r
发帖数: 8078 | 51 “不要同白痴辩论，他们会把你拉到相同的高度；让你在他们混迹了大半辈子的擅长的
白痴领域，和他们一起辩论。”
——by 当年明月
，
【在 b*x 的大作中提到】
: 总结一下北大的观点， 北大认为， 有更多的中国人进top university， 是不对的，
: 应该是让更多其他种族的人进top university， 占据高端的工作市场， 而所有中国人
: 都应该比他活的还惨， 最好SAt满分都去餐馆洗碗， 这样可以体现diversity和他和他
: 儿子的优越性。 当然他忘了， 如果Harvard只有他儿子一个中国人， 那他儿子就和
: 今天那个路虎男一样， 只有被outnumber的命， 当然， 我们广大正常中国人已经把
: 他归入黄皮黑心的脑残行列了。
|
b*x
发帖数: 5456 | 52 好吧， 谢谢hair提醒。。。
我干活赚钱去了。 多赚钱， 早退休， 省得像千年化学千老一样，
把脑子搞坏了。
【在 h**r 的大作中提到】
: “不要同白痴辩论，他们会把你拉到相同的高度；让你在他们混迹了大半辈子的擅长的
: 白痴领域，和他们一起辩论。”
: ——by 当年明月
:
: ，
|
y*******4
发帖数: 380 | 53 同意一下这个。加一点，在大陆考不上大学真不代表这个孩子不出色，只是不合适国内
的教育制度而已。看到有很多来了美国的本科留学的孩子都学得很好，很有创造性，这
个恰恰是国内教育不强调的。
【在 u*****7 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得作者这个图其实很能说明问题，只是解释和分析不够深入，有点jump into
: conclusion太快，所以易引起反驳。我来试着反驳一下你的反驳。
: 按你说的，这是作者的结论：作者依照上图说：亚裔 18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到
: 2011 增加很多，已经加倍了。但亚裔学生在绝大部分长春藤学校中的百分比例只是持
: 平，没有太大变化。结论：亚裔被歧视了。我觉得这个结论是对的。
: 你的反驳（1）：白人，黑人，西班牙裔 18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到 2011 可能
: 也增加很快， ，其增长的人数可能远远超过亚裔增长的人数，尤其是西班牙裔。这些
: 族裔的学生在绝大部分长春藤学校中的百分比例，可能也只是持平，没有太大变化。他
: 们也被歧视了？
: 常春藤名校招生是号称不考虑race的，所以应该跟族裔人口基数无关，跟申请人客观上
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 54 Using your own logic:
又见 some kind of BMX。 Using the same hard-to-find vernacular . . .
Same old. Same old. Not a modicum of originality.
【在 b*x 的大作中提到】
: 又见脑残北大。 还是那句， 把你家的TJ的名额让给老黑， 把你的五毛家产捐出来
: 给老黑，
: 你自己搬家到黑墨区来bring more diversity。 否则不要在这做鼓吹AA这种断子绝孙
: 的勾当。
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 55 The same comment applies to you, a so-called owner of the Chicago board who
bans constitutionally allowed free speech in America and who tells one lie
after another, including but not limited to "providing protection to Beida."
That is the fairness you want in Education??
That is the kind of discrimination you are against in Education??
links:
http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t0/Complain/31319967.html
http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/Chicago/31866115.html
In God we trust. Anyone else? Bring your argument (with style).
【在 h**r 的大作中提到】
: “不要同白痴辩论，他们会把你拉到相同的高度；让你在他们混迹了大半辈子的擅长的
: 白痴领域，和他们一起辩论。”
: ——by 当年明月
:
: ，
|
b*x
发帖数: 5456 | 56 我们只要结果，
我们要的结果是， 中国人有公平的权利上学工作。
你要的结果是， 黑墨可以吸毒打炮就可以上大学。
who
."
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: The same comment applies to you, a so-called owner of the Chicago board who
: bans constitutionally allowed free speech in America and who tells one lie
: after another, including but not limited to "providing protection to Beida."
: That is the fairness you want in Education??
: That is the kind of discrimination you are against in Education??
: links:
: http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t0/Complain/31319967.html
: http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/Chicago/31866115.html
: In God we trust. Anyone else? Bring your argument (with style).
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 57 This is straw man, a common logical fallacy. You can garble all the facts.
But you still cannot win the debate LOGICALLY. If you do not believe me, ask
any high school senior student to put what you said below in English in
his or her personal statement to an Ivy League school and reference to this
thread. Then tell me what is the end result of that student's final
destination in 2014. What? No one will put those words in the PS because
they fear the words will lead to their rejection?? Sue those schools for
discrimination!
A straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,is
a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on
misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is
to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with
a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and
to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
【在 b*x 的大作中提到】
: 我们只要结果，
: 我们要的结果是， 中国人有公平的权利上学工作。
: 你要的结果是， 黑墨可以吸毒打炮就可以上大学。
:
: who
: ."
|
H**G
发帖数: 563 | 58 You are so full of nonsense and defiance. Shame on you!
ask
this
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: This is straw man, a common logical fallacy. You can garble all the facts.
: But you still cannot win the debate LOGICALLY. If you do not believe me, ask
: any high school senior student to put what you said below in English in
: his or her personal statement to an Ivy League school and reference to this
: thread. Then tell me what is the end result of that student's final
: destination in 2014. What? No one will put those words in the PS because
: they fear the words will lead to their rejection?? Sue those schools for
: discrimination!
: A straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,is
: a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on
|
c******i
发帖数: 4091 | 59 我觉得这个beida101裸露癖是孔庆东和马楠的爱情结晶。 |
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 60 Not a modicum of originality.
【在 c******i 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得这个beida101裸露癖是孔庆东和马楠的爱情结晶。
|
|
|
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 61 I have never seen anyone who undercuts the cause of his/her own race.....not
really sure why he does this and what his agenda is. NAO-CHAN is probably
the only explanation.
【在 H**G 的大作中提到】
: You are so full of nonsense and defiance. Shame on you!
:
: ask
: this
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 62 You missed at least one person: Mr. Ron Unz. He is a Jewish White who wrote
the article you cited and relied upon. The article has made the following
points using the flawed data analysis:
1) Jews are vastly overrepresented at elite universities and that Jewish
achievement has collapsed. Mr. Unz is advocating the anti-Semitism!
2) Non-Jewish Whites are vastly underrepresented compared to Jews. If the
current system were abolished, the non-Jewish Whites should recoup their
losses from the Jewish White.
Reading comprehension. If you believed that article, you should have put Mr.
Unz as the one you despised the most: He started it! And he used a flawed
method . . .
P.S. Your 汉语拼音 sucks.
not
【在 y*****y 的大作中提到】
: I have never seen anyone who undercuts the cause of his/her own race.....not
: really sure why he does this and what his agenda is. NAO-CHAN is probably
: the only explanation.
|
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 63 Unz has lots of stats to back his claims. Where is yours?
wrote
Mr.
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: You missed at least one person: Mr. Ron Unz. He is a Jewish White who wrote
: the article you cited and relied upon. The article has made the following
: points using the flawed data analysis:
: 1) Jews are vastly overrepresented at elite universities and that Jewish
: achievement has collapsed. Mr. Unz is advocating the anti-Semitism!
: 2) Non-Jewish Whites are vastly underrepresented compared to Jews. If the
: current system were abolished, the non-Jewish Whites should recoup their
: losses from the Jewish White.
: Reading comprehension. If you believed that article, you should have put Mr.
: Unz as the one you despised the most: He started it! And he used a flawed
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 64 Edit: flawed stats!
【在 y*****y 的大作中提到】
: Unz has lots of stats to back his claims. Where is yours?
:
: wrote
: Mr.
|
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 65 which is another way to say you don't have any. so you just BS on this board
.
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: Edit: flawed stats!
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 66 Again, name-calling would neither increase your popularity nor add any
credibility to your claims.
What you should work on diligently is to find the HARD evidence that is
missing to back up your claims.
In addition, if it is important for you to fight discrimination against
Asian applicants, it is a fortiori important for you to respect others, who
are with either the same or different skin color of yours, and who have
either the same or different opinions of your.
Hatred is not an inhibitor of discrimination. It might be an inducer.
board
【在 y*****y 的大作中提到】
: which is another way to say you don't have any. so you just BS on this board
: .
|
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 67 Beida, just because you don't want to acknowledge the hard and overwhelming
evidence, it doesn't mean there aren't any. I posted many articles, stats,
various opines and blogs - all of which fall on deaf ear.
Again, evidence is overwhelming - in the 1980s and 1990s, the percentage of
Asian students at Ivy League colleges steadily increased. But in the last
decade or so, even as the Asian population steadily increased (it roughly
doubled since 1993), and Asian academic performance continued to improve,
the proportion of Asians enrolled in Ivy League colleges reached a plateau
or declined. More suspiciously, it has converged to roughly 16 percent at
each Ivy League school for the past five years.
Meanwhile, at elite schools like UC Berkeley, UCLA and the California
Institute of Technology — which use race-neutral admissions processes —
the proportion of Asian students has risen to about 40 percent of the
student body, tracking the increase in the population of college-age Asians.
This disparity is strong evidence of an unofficial quota system at elite
private universities.
According many denials by the ivies, admissions officers are suggesting that
Asians’ superior academic performance is outweighed by their inferior
personal qualities compared to other races. The parallels with the Jewish
quota system are unmistakable. Ivies’ current mechanism for using racial
preferences is infuriating. At the very least, admissions offices should
admit that they disadvantage members of some races and favor members of
other races. They shouldn’t couch this discrimination in feel-good language
about desirable personality traits — traits that, apparently, Asian
students just don’t have - which you would strongly agree?
who
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: Again, name-calling would neither increase your popularity nor add any
: credibility to your claims.
: What you should work on diligently is to find the HARD evidence that is
: missing to back up your claims.
: In addition, if it is important for you to fight discrimination against
: Asian applicants, it is a fortiori important for you to respect others, who
: are with either the same or different skin color of yours, and who have
: either the same or different opinions of your.
: Hatred is not an inhibitor of discrimination. It might be an inducer.
:
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 68 Same old, same old. Statistical data are not evidence.
overwhelming
of
【在 y*****y 的大作中提到】
: Beida, just because you don't want to acknowledge the hard and overwhelming
: evidence, it doesn't mean there aren't any. I posted many articles, stats,
: various opines and blogs - all of which fall on deaf ear.
: Again, evidence is overwhelming - in the 1980s and 1990s, the percentage of
: Asian students at Ivy League colleges steadily increased. But in the last
: decade or so, even as the Asian population steadily increased (it roughly
: doubled since 1993), and Asian academic performance continued to improve,
: the proportion of Asians enrolled in Ivy League colleges reached a plateau
: or declined. More suspiciously, it has converged to roughly 16 percent at
: each Ivy League school for the past five years.
|
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 69 So far, you haven't provided any data indicating i am wrong.
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: Same old, same old. Statistical data are not evidence.
:
: overwhelming
: of
|
y*****y
发帖数: 1208 | 70 BUMP - Please visit and like our facebook page
https://www.facebook.com/AgainstAA |
|
|
b*x
发帖数: 5456 | 71 多说无益， 看看Beida的ethics。
对于罪犯和寄生虫， 他把他们的权益放到高于一切的权利，
对于成功人士的权益， 恨不得全部剥夺。
罪犯犯罪的权利是不用质疑的， 合法公民的自卫权力是不能给予的。
【在 y*****y 的大作中提到】
: BUMP - Please visit and like our facebook page
: https://www.facebook.com/AgainstAA
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 72 Keep abusing your right. It is laughable that how far the self-proclaimed
justice can go on this board.
Bring it on.
够准确了吧，剩下的请继续人肉。 |
v*******e
发帖数: 11604 | 73
你不怕的话，干吗把地址都改成了XXX？有种在公共论坛上匿名搞中国人，没种被住处
的中国人指脊梁骨？你就这点本事？
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: Keep abusing your right. It is laughable that how far the self-proclaimed
: justice can go on this board.
: Bring it on.
:
: 够准确了吧，剩下的请继续人肉。
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 74 The problem is, this public forum does not allow illegal disclosure of
perceived ID's address. Check with the forum authority for details. I am a
law-abiding citizen online or offline. What about you?
BTW, where is your original post?? 你就这点本事？
【在 v*******e 的大作中提到】
:
: 你不怕的话，干吗把地址都改成了XXX？有种在公共论坛上匿名搞中国人，没种被住处
: 的中国人指脊梁骨？你就这点本事？
|
v*******e
发帖数: 11604 | 75
你举报了当然版务给删除了，你以为我删除的？你有本事举报，还有本事倒打一耙，本
事够大的。
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: The problem is, this public forum does not allow illegal disclosure of
: perceived ID's address. Check with the forum authority for details. I am a
: law-abiding citizen online or offline. What about you?
: BTW, where is your original post?? 你就这点本事？
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 76 Here are the facts: You did something illegal and suffered the consequence
thereof. If you think that you were mistreated, appeal, like any law-abiding
citizen would do. Or stop doing those illegal stuffs.
Sweet dreams.
【在 v*******e 的大作中提到】
:
: 你举报了当然版务给删除了，你以为我删除的？你有本事举报，还有本事倒打一耙，本
: 事够大的。
|
v*******e
发帖数: 11604 | 77
abiding
你敢不敢在你住处被人认出就是那个支持对华裔学生进行入学歧视的“北大学子”？
你敢吗？你扪心自问，你在版上不遗余力鼓吹对华裔学生进行入学歧视，到底是哪种阴
暗的心理造成？
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: Here are the facts: You did something illegal and suffered the consequence
: thereof. If you think that you were mistreated, appeal, like any law-abiding
: citizen would do. Or stop doing those illegal stuffs.
: Sweet dreams.
|
w*******g
发帖数: 9932 | 78 又见北大学子这只臭虫。 她时间真多， 观点真奇妙， 声嘶力竭地说明美国制度多么
美好， 华人该如何对黑白棕洋大人忍礼恭谦让。 自己爱做孙子就算了， 还拼命打击
看清问题的人。
【在 v*******e 的大作中提到】
:
: abiding
: 你敢不敢在你住处被人认出就是那个支持对华裔学生进行入学歧视的“北大学子”？
: 你敢吗？你扪心自问，你在版上不遗余力鼓吹对华裔学生进行入学歧视，到底是哪种阴
: 暗的心理造成？
|
p********8
发帖数: 2061 | 79 我觉得此人是臭名昭著的薛涌
【在 w*******g 的大作中提到】
: 又见北大学子这只臭虫。 她时间真多， 观点真奇妙， 声嘶力竭地说明美国制度多么
: 美好， 华人该如何对黑白棕洋大人忍礼恭谦让。 自己爱做孙子就算了， 还拼命打击
: 看清问题的人。
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 80 Logical errors:
Straw man;
The end justifies the means.
The key point here is that you are using or planning to use all means
available to attack those who have different opinions from yours. That is
partially the definition of discrimination, the very same subject you
claimed to be against. How ironic!
Second, someone posted a topic such as "Asians are smart as an individual
but not smart as a group." Your action simply epitomized the very concept
that post was trying to illustrate. If you subscribe to the notion that
eliminating anyone on your path leading to your goal is the way towards
success, then you will never see the glory of "success."
Third, online bullying is notoriously vicious and inaccurate. You
can keep hiding behind your online ID and practicing whatever language you
have mastered. Truth be told, none of your words are publishable or can be
used as examples to teach your children.
Finally, you forgot you are in America, where fairness and justice shine
above.
【在 v*******e 的大作中提到】
:
: abiding
: 你敢不敢在你住处被人认出就是那个支持对华裔学生进行入学歧视的“北大学子”？
: 你敢吗？你扪心自问，你在版上不遗余力鼓吹对华裔学生进行入学歧视，到底是哪种阴
: 暗的心理造成？
|
|
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 81 Same old. Same old. Not a modicum of originality.
【在 w*******g 的大作中提到】
: 又见北大学子这只臭虫。 她时间真多， 观点真奇妙， 声嘶力竭地说明美国制度多么
: 美好， 华人该如何对黑白棕洋大人忍礼恭谦让。 自己爱做孙子就算了， 还拼命打击
: 看清问题的人。
|
