L**********t
发帖数: 42 | 1 我第一遍读《时间简史》的时候，几乎没有读懂就放下了。后来再读的时候，突然间有
了巨大的悟性，觉得霍.金伟大的不得了。若干年前，方励之曾出版过一本小册子，题
目叫《世界创生于无》，当时我还以为那是谈论哲学问题的，后来才明白那是天体物理
学家真正从物理学角度对宇宙的认识，也就是现在普遍承认的“大爆炸理论”。从那时
开始，我对有点玄学意味的哲学兴趣冷淡下来，而对从科学的角度来看世界的根本问题
产生兴趣。道理很简单：假如科学能够解开世界创生之谜，要那些无聊的玄学干什么？
（看法极端了）哲学，尤其是我们在学校教育中接受的哲学，那关于“本体论”，（物
质决定意识还是意识决定物质）和方法论（辩证法还是形而上学），真正是把哲学变成
了毫无意义的、自以为是的玄学。我开始大量的阅读科学家们关于世界的看法，这些看
法可能并不是宏观性的，但是实在性的。
《时间简史》给我的巨大震动是怎么说也不过份的，他甚至迫使我调整我整个的知识体
系（自以为是的认为有个知识体系，哈哈！）。如果科学能够解决从大尺度到小尺
度的基本问题──霍.金说能──从宇宙创生到宇宙消亡，从宇宙的构造到最微小的粒
子的构造，那么，就有理由期待他 | lp
发帖数: 22 | 2 Spinoza has tried to show that, if one knows the (scientific)
reason of one's suffering, this suffering won't be a suffering anymore.
Last century, I had to finish reading his "Ethics" in a few days
'cause this book of his is in the reading list of the comprehensive
exams I was about to take. I knew the reason why I had to set aside
all the other things I'd like to do or I should have done, and had to sit
somewhere the whole day reading this book only, without much rest. Still,
I suffered to a c | b*s
发帖数: 82482 | 3
Actually, I agree with you about the meaning of philosophy, or
metaphysics. From the classroom, I find the philosophy is rather
nonsense to me, if we have science, who need the philosophy?
To me, the love of wisdom is the love of Science, nothing is more
beautiful and wise than the principle of science. From my scope of
knowledge, it seems the philosophers don't use experiment to solve
the problems. For me, that's intolerable, that's not much different
than religion.
However, I think your defin
【在 L**********t 的大作中提到】
: 我第一遍读《时间简史》的时候，几乎没有读懂就放下了。后来再读的时候，突然间有
: 了巨大的悟性，觉得霍.金伟大的不得了。若干年前，方励之曾出版过一本小册子，题
: 目叫《世界创生于无》，当时我还以为那是谈论哲学问题的，后来才明白那是天体物理
: 学家真正从物理学角度对宇宙的认识，也就是现在普遍承认的“大爆炸理论”。从那时
: 开始，我对有点玄学意味的哲学兴趣冷淡下来，而对从科学的角度来看世界的根本问题
: 产生兴趣。道理很简单：假如科学能够解开世界创生之谜，要那些无聊的玄学干什么？
: （看法极端了）哲学，尤其是我们在学校教育中接受的哲学，那关于“本体论”，（物
: 质决定意识还是意识决定物质）和方法论（辩证法还是形而上学），真正是把哲学变成
: 了毫无意义的、自以为是的玄学。我开始大量的阅读科学家们关于世界的看法，这些看
: 法可能并不是宏观性的，但是实在性的。
| lp
发帖数: 22 | 4
Then, there might be something wrong with the "classroom" you were in.
Can science solve all the problems of human life?
To limit wisdom to scientific wisdom is a fatal mistake of the "moderns".
Science itself doesn't tell you that the principle of it is "beautiful and
wise". To say this, you already commit the "sin" of philosophy or
metaphysics.
But why only the problem solved by experiment should be tolerated?
Is this belief also a kind of ... RELIGION? One example might help here.
One import
【在 b*s 的大作中提到】
:
: Actually, I agree with you about the meaning of philosophy, or
: metaphysics. From the classroom, I find the philosophy is rather
: nonsense to me, if we have science, who need the philosophy?
: To me, the love of wisdom is the love of Science, nothing is more
: beautiful and wise than the principle of science. From my scope of
: knowledge, it seems the philosophers don't use experiment to solve
: the problems. For me, that's intolerable, that's not much different
: than religion.
: However, I think your defin
| b*s
发帖数: 82482 | 5
Sure. I cannot agree with you about the quality of the philosophy
classrooms in Mainland China.
Nope. But without science, or the scientific principles,
human being is nothing (according to the civilization standard). Anyway,
I don't think philosophy can solve any real problem. Maybe you can
enlighten me.
However, I don't think the post-modernism trend any good. Anti-scientific
is the core of the post-modernism, from my personal experience. Maybe you
can educate me on this, too. Do you really t
【在 lp 的大作中提到】
:
: Then, there might be something wrong with the "classroom" you were in.
: Can science solve all the problems of human life?
: To limit wisdom to scientific wisdom is a fatal mistake of the "moderns".
: Science itself doesn't tell you that the principle of it is "beautiful and
: wise". To say this, you already commit the "sin" of philosophy or
: metaphysics.
: But why only the problem solved by experiment should be tolerated?
: Is this belief also a kind of ... RELIGION? One example might help here.
: One import
| lp
发帖数: 22 | 6
既然你知道它的质量很差，那你为什么不换个地方好好学习一下，象我上一个回复
所建议的？如果(NOTE：如果！)你的对哲学的评论是基于这样一个背景，你所尊崇的
科学精神去哪儿遛弯儿去了？
BTW，我发现当一些同志提到哲学时，他们实际上指的是大学必修的马克思主义。
但PLEASE NOTE：1)马克思主义只是西方两千年哲学的一小枝儿。2)大陆的
马克思主义教材是经过很多人民群众篡改的结果。3)大学里教这门课的老师。。。
基于此而妄论“哲学如何如何”是不是有点儿象李洪志同志基于小学自然常识课本
而说“现代科学如何如何”？
原文中我只说了科学不能解决所有的问题。BTW，你的论断“But without science,
or the scientific principles,
点儿循环论证。哲学有哲学处理问题的方法与原则。有些问题恐怕是人类永远无法
解决，却要永远面对的。好的哲学能够帮助一些人去更好地面对他们。
你看，又不象一个有科学精神的人说的话了不是？谁告诉你“you really think
post-modernism solved any problem?”？再重复一遍：科学理性是
【在 b*s 的大作中提到】
:
: Sure. I cannot agree with you about the quality of the philosophy
: classrooms in Mainland China.
: Nope. But without science, or the scientific principles,
: human being is nothing (according to the civilization standard). Anyway,
: I don't think philosophy can solve any real problem. Maybe you can
: enlighten me.
: However, I don't think the post-modernism trend any good. Anti-scientific
: is the core of the post-modernism, from my personal experience. Maybe you
: can educate me on this, too. Do you really t
| lp
发帖数: 22 | 7
That we can't solve them once and for all doesn't mean that we can't
handle them more gracefully, beautifully, and nobly. "Why be beautiful
and noble? I just want to be a happy 二傻." Fine.
I'll Attach a poster of mine, which might be relevant.
发信人: lp (二傻), 信区: PKU
标 题: 想作上帝的人们。
发信站: The unknown SPACE (Fri Jan 7 03:35:56 2000) WWW-POST
为了躲开因千年虫而可能掉到BOSTON的核弹，跑到一个叫“杀人城”(Killington)的
地方滑雪。准备回来时，车出了点儿毛病，无所事事中，不小心看了"The last
temptation of Jesus", 还看了两遍。
回到这个BBS，看到有人怀念海子，也就想起了他的那首老少咸宜的关 | c**g
发帖数: 274 | 8 这实际上也是一种解决方案，换句话说，这个/些问题1也是有解的。
我没看出你的面对和解决这两个词在这里有意义上的差别。你强调的只不过是
各种解决方案间的区别, 你的原话应该这么说:
一些由科学(或其他)目前, 或永远解决的问题可以借由哲学(或其他)提出解决方案。
这不过是common sense. 根据科学的游戏规则，无解的问题就是目前
无法得出可以为科学的游戏规则认可的解答，对这类问题，科学的态度就是承认
目前无解。从科学的视角，永远无法解决的问题存在与否是一个假问题，因为无法
保证将来能不能找到解。从这个意义上讲，总有一些科学无法解决的问题，只不
过这些问题总是越来越少而一但科学上有了解，对同一问题其他形式的解决
方案就再不具吸引力, 因为科学的解显然总是具有统计意义上的更强的
有用和操作性。比如宇宙学的发展，就导致了哲学退出这一领域。医学的进步
就让宗教退出了这一领域。
BTW: 至于gracefully, beautifully, and nobly, 我承认是衡量解决方案优劣的一
个标准，担它是一个非常模糊的标准。比如在肺结核还是不治之症的时候，
信上帝的人可以由于相信上帝而非
【在 lp 的大作中提到】
:
: That we can't solve them once and for all doesn't mean that we can't
: handle them more gracefully, beautifully, and nobly. "Why be beautiful
: and noble? I just want to be a happy 二傻." Fine.
: I'll Attach a poster of mine, which might be relevant.
: 发信人: lp (二傻), 信区: PKU
: 标 题: 想作上帝的人们。
: 发信站: The unknown SPACE (Fri Jan 7 03:35:56 2000) WWW-POST
: 为了躲开因千年虫而可能掉到BOSTON的核弹，跑到一个叫“杀人城”(Killington)的
: 地方滑雪。准备回来时，车出了点儿毛病，无所事事中，不小心看了"The last
| lp
发帖数: 22 | 9
Of course with the progress of sciences, many problems have been solved
once and for all. But if you read all the classics carefully, Chinese
and Western alike, you may find that there are some eternal problems
for human beings. They haven't been changed much through the course of
time. I don't know, at least for the moment, how to give a clear-cut
example of this kind of problems, which may free me from discussing more
on this basic point. So, if you have some idea about this kind of problems,
【在 c**g 的大作中提到】
: 这实际上也是一种解决方案，换句话说，这个/些问题1也是有解的。
: 我没看出你的面对和解决这两个词在这里有意义上的差别。你强调的只不过是
: 各种解决方案间的区别, 你的原话应该这么说:
: 一些由科学(或其他)目前, 或永远解决的问题可以借由哲学(或其他)提出解决方案。
: 这不过是common sense. 根据科学的游戏规则，无解的问题就是目前
: 无法得出可以为科学的游戏规则认可的解答，对这类问题，科学的态度就是承认
: 目前无解。从科学的视角，永远无法解决的问题存在与否是一个假问题，因为无法
: 保证将来能不能找到解。从这个意义上讲，总有一些科学无法解决的问题，只不
: 过这些问题总是越来越少而一但科学上有了解，对同一问题其他形式的解决
: 方案就再不具吸引力, 因为科学的解显然总是具有统计意义上的更强的
|
|
