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Running版 - Do Minimalist Shoes Increase Injury Risk?: Merry Christmas Vibram(zz)
相关主题
脚面很疼跟风问一下五指鞋吧。
MT10 V2和MT20是不是比MT10 V1低级Vibram Fivefingers on sale
薄底minimalist跑鞋的最佳设计思路超级菜鸟又来了,我是不是该先快走啊
新人:为首马开始训练~~~[转载] 五指鞋可能有脚骨伤的风险
奔“变叔”woot今天卖VFF $35+5
Vibram 真是要无语可以穿 NB WT minimus zero 跑小区的水泥路面吗?
想买five finger的可以跳这个dealVibram FiveFingers KSO Trek $30
前脚掌着地对小腿肌肉要求很高吧?好像很快就累了。时尚达人们请帮我弟弟挑2双5指鞋--包子酬谢 (转载)
相关话题的讨论汇总
话题: injury话题: shoes话题: study话题: free话题: nike
进入Running版参与讨论
1 (共1页)
R*****s
发帖数: 41236
1
不小心看到这么一篇, 貌似Vibram要翻身:
http://runblogger.com/2013/12/do-minimalist-shoes-increase-inju
Contrary to what you may read in the coming days about a new study that just
came out, Vibram just got the best Christmas present they could have
received.
The question of whether minimalist running shoes reduce or increase injury
risk has been debated extensively over the past 3-4 years. Much of this
debate has been based largely on anecdotal reports from runners and
therapists: many runners have reported resolution of long-term injuries by
moving into more minimal shoes, and many therapists claim that they have
seen upticks in the number of patients reporting injuries resulting from
moving to more minimal footwear.
I believe that anecdotes can provide valuable information, and in this case
I do believe that individuals making these claims are speaking the truth. I
believe that people have overcome injury by going minimal, and I also
believe that others have gotten injured as a result (I have seen both sides
in my own client population). But, what we have largely lacked to date are
published studies investigating injury risk associated with footwear along
the spectrum from maximal to minimal.
One such study was just published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine,
and at first look it might seem to shoot down the claims of minimalist
aficionados. The study, authored by Michael Ryan and colleagues, is titled
“Examining injury risk and pain perception in runners using minimalist
footwear.” I’m quite sure it will be the source of considerable debate, so
I thought I’d give my take on the results.
Study Methods
The study employed a prospective, randomized controlled design (not blinded,
tough to do that with shoes!), which gives it more weight than other injury
studies that have been done to date on this topic (many of which are survey
-based). The authors recruited participants with a minimum of 5 years of
running experience to participate, and all had to be capable of tolerating a
20-40 km/week training load (in other words, these were experienced runners
). A key point is that individuals who already use minimalist footwear were
excluded. So, moving into minimal shoes was a change from the norm for those
in the experimental groups. Thus, they were essentially studying transition
injuries.
Ultimately 103 (99 completed the study) runners were randomized into one of
3 footwear groups: traditionally cushioned Nike Pegasus, mildly cushioned
and highly flexible Nike Free 3.0v2, and minimally cushioned Vibram
Fivefingers Bikila. Here’s how they describe the training program that each
group followed:
“Following a 1-week break-in period to their assigned footwear,
participants began a 12-week run training programme developed by the authors
targeting a 10 km run held in Vancouver, British Columbia in November, 2011
. The programme followed a gradual increase in total running minutes from
160 min the first week to a peak of 215 min in week 10 before a 2-week taper
. Participants did not always run in their assigned footwear, rather had a
gradual increase in exposure as a percentage of their total weekly running
time starting at 10 min (19% of volume) in week 1 to 115 min (58%) in week
12. If a participant felt that repeated use of a shoe was significantly
contributing to pain anywhere in the lower extremity, they were given the
option of withdrawing from the study.
The programme incorporated three to four run workouts a week, with a longer
group run on the weekend and interval training during the middle of the week
. The 2–3-weekday workouts were based on time, while the long run on the
weekend was based on distance, in order to accommodate different training
paces but ensuring adequate preparation for the 10 km event…it was
estimated that the weekly volume started at approximately 15 km and
increased to 30–40 km at the peak of the programme.”
The study authors tracked injury events (an injury was an incident that
caused 3 consecutive missed runs) and pain with running at several points
during the 12-week duration of the experiment.
Study Results
A total of 23 injuries were reported by the 99 runners over the 12-week
training period (injury incidence = 23.2%). Injury results among groups were
distributed as follows: 4/32 (13%) in the Nike Pegasus got injured, 12/32 (
38%) in the Nike Free 3.0v2 got injured, 7/35 (20%) in the VFF Bikila group
got injured. Injury risk was significantly higher in the Nike Free group
compared to both the Vibram and Nike Pegasus groups. Risk of injury was not
not significantly different between the Vibram and Nike Pegasus groups.
Results for pain during running were mostly non-significant, with only calf/
shin pain in full minimalist runners being significantly higher.
Based on a statistical analysis of the results, the authors conclude “Based
on injury event data, there is a higher likelihood of experiencing an
injury with minimalist footwear, particularly with the partial minimalist
condition.” (I disagree a bit with this phrasing since injury risk was not
elevated in the Vibram group)
Commentary
1. The first point I’ll address is sample size. People are going to
complain that sample sizes here are too small, particularly the number of
people injured in each group. I’ll address this by saying that studies like
this are time consuming, expensive, and not easy to carry out. So, we have
to work with what we have. That being said, I do think the small samples
prevented identification of some possible significant differences between
groups (e.g., the Pegasus group was over 70% female, whereas the Free and
VFF groups were closer to 50-50 male-female). Would the higher injury rate (
20% vs. 13%) in the Vibram group have represented a significant difference
if larger samples had been employed? Maybe, but we again have to work with
the data in front of us. We use statistics for a reason, and the stats here
say no difference in risk between the two groups.
For one example, if we wanted to ignore statistics and play the trend game
with the data, we’d find that the Nike Free group had least pain in the
shin/calf (is 4mm drop protective for the calf/shin vs. 12mm and 0mm???),
but had the most pain in the knees (plausible case for lack of form change
interacting with less cushion?). But, we can’t do this because the stats
say the differences are not significant.
2. The injury rate in the Nike Free 3.0 group was indeed fairly high, and
risk of injury was significantly higher than in the other two shoes. However
, in the Kaplan-Meier plot (Figure 2 in the paper) as well as in the tables
presented in the supplementary data, risk of injury in the Vibram
Fivefingers was not significantly different from the Pegasus (for example,
confidence interval for absolute risk reduction in VFF compared to Pegasus
overlaps zero, confidence interval for relative risk in VFF relative to
Pegasus overlaps 100% or 1 – statisticians, correct me if I’m wrong on my
interpretation!).
So in reality, this study shows that transitioning to running in a full
minimal shoe isn’t any more risky (or better) when it comes to injuries
than continuing to run in a traditional shoe like the Pegasus. It’s moving
to a cushioned but more minimal shoe like the Nike Free 3.0 that poses
increased risk, and the authors suspect this may be due to the fact that the
moderate amount of cushion in the Free isn’t enough to encourage form
modification, and isn’t enough to protect runners who continue to run as
they did in a heavily cushioned shoe like the Pegasus. Makes sense to me (
and interesting personally since the Free 3.0 was my gateway-shoe to
minimalism!).
3. The authors don’t talk much about pain, mainly because most differences
observed were not significant (I think the sample-size effect comes into
play here). The only significant difference observed was that runners in the
full minimal Vibram Fivefingers reported greater pain in the calf/shin. My
guess is that this was mostly calf pain (they don’t specify), as a period
of initial calf pain is almost universally experienced by those
transitioning into minimal shoes (myself included). The study authors
explain this as follows:
“It is noteworthy that runners in full minimalist footwear condition
reported greater calf and shin pain throughout the 12-week period. This
finding was not unexpected given the likelihood that some of the runners in
the full minimalist footwear condition adopted a forefoot strike pattern
that could have resulted in greater (and unaccustomed) loading of the
Achilles tendon and triceps surae musculature secondary to a larger ankle
dorsiflexion moment immediately following touchdown. The greater heel height
in the partial minimalist footwear likely mitigated this loading on the
shank.”
I had bad calf pain when I started running in VFFs back in 2009. It was
transient delayed onset muscle soreness that diminished and eventually went
away after I adapted to running in the shoes (much as starting to lift at a
gym can cause bad muscle pain for a period of time). It would be helpful to
know if this calf pain was muscle soreness or something else, but I suspect
this is something that would lessen over time.
4. I dread seeing headlines touting this study as the nail in the coffin for
minimalism. You could just as easily turn it around and say that this study
supports the notion that wearing a highly cushioned shoe provides no injury
protective benefit over a shoe with virtually no cushion at all.
I also reject the notion that a study like this can say much about any
entire class of shoes. The Nike Free 3.0 fared poorly, I don’t doubt the
data. Though it is a personal favorite shoe, the Free 3.0 is fairly narrow,
extremely flexible, and does not provide a lot of medial support (I moved my
wife out of them because she tended to cave in the medial side of the sole)
. Is the Free 3.0 representative of all minimal shoes? Not at all. Just as I
would not say the Pegasus is representative of all traditional shoes, or
the Vibrams are representative of all fully minimal shoes (I get forefoot
pain in Vibrams for example, but not in other ultraminimal shoes –
something to do with the toe pockets I think).
If anything, this study shoots down claims that:
a) Minimal shoes are a panacea for running injuries. They aren’t. They can
cause injuries for some, and for others they might just be the solution to a
long-term injury. We’re all different, and it’s all about what works best
on an individual level.
b) Barefoot-style shoes are too risky and running in them will get you
injured. The results here actually suggest that transitioning into barefoot-
style shoes is not as risky as some suggest (particularly those with an anti
-minimal bias). I’d add the caveat that the transition should be gradual,
much like the one employed in this study. But runners who transitioned from
traditional shoes to Vibrams in this study were at no greater risk of
suffering an injury than individuals who continued to run in a more
traditional-style shoe. This is why I consider this study a Christmas
present or Vibram – it gives them a prospective study in a high profile
journal to cite that shows that their shoes are not any more likely to cause
an injury than more typical running footwear. In fact, they are apparently
safer than the Nike Free, which is one of the top selling shoes in the
United States!
Update 12/25: I forgot about it when I first wrote this post, but I should
point out with regard to the above statements that this is now the second
study to find no difference in injury risk between minimalist shoe wearers
and those in traditional shoes – I wrote about the other here (based on an
abstract from the ACSM meeting).
5. It’s worth emphasizing again that this was a transition study. The Nike
Free and Vibrams were novel conditions for all of these runners, and the
Pegasus was presumably more similar to what they were used to. So, the study
can only really assess injury risk when transitioning into minimal shoes.
We really need longer term studies of how people fare in different shoes,
and studies looking at how different shoes might be used to help with (or
if they are contraindicated for) specific injury types (this study did not
break down injury types as diagnoses were not available). For example, I’d
love to see a study on whether moving to a Vibram-style shoe helps with knee
pain, or whether wearing a Hoka style shoe helps with foot pain. We need to
confirm or refute the anecdotes in cases like these.
At the end of the day, what I think this study shows once again is that
there are myriad options out there to choose from, and no one end of the
shoe spectrum is inherently better or worse than any other. These results
would not stop me from recommending a minimal shoe where I think it’s
warranted, and they don’t support claims that minimal shoes are a cure-all.
I sent a client home yesterday with the suggestion that he try a pair of
Hokas, I myself prefer more minimal stuff. Different strokes for different
folks, embrace variety and find what works for you.
For more on this study, view articles by Blaise Dubois and Craig Payne.
j*********r
发帖数: 24733
2
呵呵, 变叔怎么又挖大坑了.
R*****s
发帖数: 41236
3
没有,我其实很open mind, 只信数据...

【在 j*********r 的大作中提到】
: 呵呵, 变叔怎么又挖大坑了.
j*********r
发帖数: 24733
4
individuals who already use minimalist footwear were excluded......Thus,
they were essentially studying transition injuries.
所以说要换鞋的话应该直接上VFF而不是transition鞋, 呵呵.

【在 R*****s 的大作中提到】
: 没有,我其实很open mind, 只信数据...
w**********g
发帖数: 2077
5
数据个头,样本太小,这种玩意混文凭和研究资金而
j*********r
发帖数: 24733
6
FYI, 这是这个research用的三种鞋的数据.
Nike Air Pegasus: 32mm (Heel), 20mm (Forefoot)
Nike free 3.0: 21mm (Heel), 17mm (Forefoot)
VFF Bikila: 7.9mm (Heel), 10.8mm (Forefoot) data from runnersworld/变叔
j*********r
发帖数: 24733
7
呵呵, 看这个, 这个Dr. Michael Ryan怎么只是个research fellow啊
http://app.griffith.edu.au/phonebook/phone-details.php?type=B&i

【在 w**********g 的大作中提到】
: 数据个头,样本太小,这种玩意混文凭和研究资金而
l***h
发帖数: 9308
8
跑了5年的早就皮糙肉厚,再受伤的话自己都不好意思说了。

【在 j*********r 的大作中提到】
: individuals who already use minimalist footwear were excluded......Thus,
: they were essentially studying transition injuries.
: 所以说要换鞋的话应该直接上VFF而不是transition鞋, 呵呵.

w**********g
发帖数: 2077
9
教授也不能说明任何问题。再说了,真聪明的,谁研究脚呀鞋的

【在 j*********r 的大作中提到】
: 呵呵, 看这个, 这个Dr. Michael Ryan怎么只是个research fellow啊
: http://app.griffith.edu.au/phonebook/phone-details.php?type=B&i

j*********r
发帖数: 24733
10
The authors recruited participants with a minimum of 5 years of running
experience to participate, and all had to be capable of tolerating a 20-40
km/week training load......

【在 l***h 的大作中提到】
: 跑了5年的早就皮糙肉厚,再受伤的话自己都不好意思说了。
相关主题
Vibram 真是要无语跟风问一下五指鞋吧。
想买five finger的可以跳这个dealVibram Fivefingers on sale
前脚掌着地对小腿肌肉要求很高吧?好像很快就累了。超级菜鸟又来了,我是不是该先快走啊
进入Running版参与讨论
R*****s
发帖数: 41236
11
没文化, 研究转鸡蛋都能发nature...不要说研究跑鞋这么巨大的市场了和人群了.....

【在 w**********g 的大作中提到】
: 教授也不能说明任何问题。再说了,真聪明的,谁研究脚呀鞋的
R*****s
发帖数: 41236
12
班上跑了5年还没BQ, 还一身伤, 还整天牛逼哄哄也不少....

【在 l***h 的大作中提到】
: 跑了5年的早就皮糙肉厚,再受伤的话自己都不好意思说了。
w**********g
发帖数: 2077
13
人家AP发nature是为了骗女学生的,对我们有什么好处?

..

【在 R*****s 的大作中提到】
: 没文化, 研究转鸡蛋都能发nature...不要说研究跑鞋这么巨大的市场了和人群了.....
m******r
发帖数: 9604
14
偶菊花一紧。。。

【在 R*****s 的大作中提到】
: 班上跑了5年还没BQ, 还一身伤, 还整天牛逼哄哄也不少....
l***h
发帖数: 9308
15
这样打击不太好。。。一不小心把自己给装进去了,再过2月我也步入这个行列

【在 R*****s 的大作中提到】
: 班上跑了5年还没BQ, 还一身伤, 还整天牛逼哄哄也不少....
R*****s
发帖数: 41236
16
没啥打击, 说个事实, 说的谁,it 自己可以对号入座....

【在 l***h 的大作中提到】
: 这样打击不太好。。。一不小心把自己给装进去了,再过2月我也步入这个行列
R*****s
发帖数: 41236
17
哈佛某叫兽, Dr. lieberman? 也专门研究光脚的, 借born to run 的东风也发了几篇
nature...

【在 w**********g 的大作中提到】
: 人家AP发nature是为了骗女学生的,对我们有什么好处?
:
: ..

m***g
发帖数: 1633
18
好多蝌蚪! 眼晕。。。
文盲求萨莫瑞!
w**********g
发帖数: 2077
19
得了吧,当年有跑友查到的,牛顿资助的课题。
中央党校教授们研究得岀资本主义好?
BTR只是个文学作品
唉。。。

【在 R*****s 的大作中提到】
: 哈佛某叫兽, Dr. lieberman? 也专门研究光脚的, 借born to run 的东风也发了几篇
: nature...

R*****s
发帖数: 41236
20
我只是说几个事例, BTR 当年在跑版被某 BT 当圣经一样吹捧, Lieberman 也被当成了
武器...

【在 w**********g 的大作中提到】
: 得了吧,当年有跑友查到的,牛顿资助的课题。
: 中央党校教授们研究得岀资本主义好?
: BTR只是个文学作品
: 唉。。。

相关主题
[转载] 五指鞋可能有脚骨伤的风险Vibram FiveFingers KSO Trek $30
woot今天卖VFF $35+5时尚达人们请帮我弟弟挑2双5指鞋--包子酬谢 (转载)
可以穿 NB WT minimus zero 跑小区的水泥路面吗?逛商场看跑鞋
进入Running版参与讨论
w**********g
发帖数: 2077
21
理解。这些都是概念,不是科学,也不是方法论。
个人喜欢什么都行,能岀成绩不受伤是硬1道理。我只不认为可以用这些概念来支持自
己的喜好或决定。

【在 R*****s 的大作中提到】
: 我只是说几个事例, BTR 当年在跑版被某 BT 当圣经一样吹捧, Lieberman 也被当成了
: 武器...

R*****s
发帖数: 41236
22
我只提供数据和观点, 具体何去何从, 我想每个人自己也都能判断.....minimalist 跟
以前那个maf一样, 即不是普世真理, 也不是洪水猛兽...其实没啥好争的....

【在 w**********g 的大作中提到】
: 理解。这些都是概念,不是科学,也不是方法论。
: 个人喜欢什么都行,能岀成绩不受伤是硬1道理。我只不认为可以用这些概念来支持自
: 己的喜好或决定。

w**********g
发帖数: 2077
23


【在 R*****s 的大作中提到】
: 我只提供数据和观点, 具体何去何从, 我想每个人自己也都能判断.....minimalist 跟
: 以前那个maf一样, 即不是普世真理, 也不是洪水猛兽...其实没啥好争的....

j*********r
发帖数: 24733
24
呵呵,其实也是差不多,圣经不也是文学作品么?或者说每个跑者心中都有一个不同的
BTR,正如每个人心中都有一本不同的圣经。

【在 R*****s 的大作中提到】
: 我只是说几个事例, BTR 当年在跑版被某 BT 当圣经一样吹捧, Lieberman 也被当成了
: 武器...

j*********r
发帖数: 24733
25
En, totally agree.

【在 R*****s 的大作中提到】
: 我只提供数据和观点, 具体何去何从, 我想每个人自己也都能判断.....minimalist 跟
: 以前那个maf一样, 即不是普世真理, 也不是洪水猛兽...其实没啥好争的....

p*********l
发帖数: 26270
26
噗,师兄今儿个心情是好呢还是不好呢?也不能说MAF一无是处,没有MAF,减肥版的胖
妞胖小子们能跑得起来吗?不说别人,连大使都是这么被忽悠过来的
d******0
发帖数: 22800
27
我也是,感觉现在是BQ的嘲笑没BQ的,按着风气下去,马上破三的嘲笑没破三的,250
的笑300的,,240笑250,整的专业220的过来,说你们都是一群井底之蛙中学体育不及
格的,还互相笑,呵呵。

【在 m******r 的大作中提到】
: 偶菊花一紧。。。
d******0
发帖数: 22800
28
。。。是我嘛?不是我吧?是吗,不是吧! 不是吧?是嘛?

【在 R*****s 的大作中提到】
: 我只是说几个事例, BTR 当年在跑版被某 BT 当圣经一样吹捧, Lieberman 也被当成了
: 武器...

d******0
发帖数: 22800
29
紫苏是我的男颜知音。。。我们一起抱头痛哭一下

【在 p*********l 的大作中提到】
: 噗,师兄今儿个心情是好呢还是不好呢?也不能说MAF一无是处,没有MAF,减肥版的胖
: 妞胖小子们能跑得起来吗?不说别人,连大使都是这么被忽悠过来的

d******0
发帖数: 22800
30
算了,我个小板斧,只管发包子吃包子,忽悠大家一起跑步玩,不管政治背景成分调查。
新人如我眼中,跑步的都是兄弟姐妹,四海同心,不分门派,为了一个共同爱好有缘于
此。阿门!哈哈哈!
相关主题
vibram fivefingers 跑步如何MT10 V2和MT20是不是比MT10 V1低级
Vibram在打折么?薄底minimalist跑鞋的最佳设计思路
脚面很疼新人:为首马开始训练~~~
进入Running版参与讨论
d******0
发帖数: 22800
31
说起BTR,给你们看一个搞笑的,我看到眼泪都笑出来了。
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikUTNkJCnWU
从3:25开始看,4:02的时候提到BTR,然后在4:44的时候又提到了BTR,笑疯我了。
R*****s
发帖数: 41236
32
MAF这东西在跑版有争议,但像我说的,也没啥大问题.
新人如果严格照MAF跑,可能一开始都不能跑,只能走路...
其实减肥版忽悠来的人不少也都撤了,坚持年复一年跑步的基本
还是跑版原来的一帮人...
MAF本来是指导三项运动员的,能在减肥班走红,估计DR. Phil自己都要笑了,
心跳这东西,人和人差别很大,跟人的脚一样,没办法用这种简单公式就概括的...

【在 p*********l 的大作中提到】
: 噗,师兄今儿个心情是好呢还是不好呢?也不能说MAF一无是处,没有MAF,减肥版的胖
: 妞胖小子们能跑得起来吗?不说别人,连大使都是这么被忽悠过来的

R*****s
发帖数: 41236
33
说的是些所谓老id, 新人不要乱对号入座哈,跟现在版面的id都没啥关系...

【在 d******0 的大作中提到】
: 。。。是我嘛?不是我吧?是吗,不是吧! 不是吧?是嘛?
R*****s
发帖数: 41236
34
没有嘲笑的意思,但以前跑版的确有些老id, 跑了很多年才BQ, 还整天自以为是,
经常在跑版骂人,我说的是这种人...

250

【在 d******0 的大作中提到】
: 我也是,感觉现在是BQ的嘲笑没BQ的,按着风气下去,马上破三的嘲笑没破三的,250
: 的笑300的,,240笑250,整的专业220的过来,说你们都是一群井底之蛙中学体育不及
: 格的,还互相笑,呵呵。

d******0
发帖数: 22800
35
嗯,骂人不好,要拖出去打屁股。有种跑ultra去,或者全麻进240,我觉得数据帝会是
第一个进240的版面ID。

【在 R*****s 的大作中提到】
: 没有嘲笑的意思,但以前跑版的确有些老id, 跑了很多年才BQ, 还整天自以为是,
: 经常在跑版骂人,我说的是这种人...
:
: 250

w**********g
发帖数: 2077
36
数据帝不算,他已经是肥版的人了

【在 d******0 的大作中提到】
: 嗯,骂人不好,要拖出去打屁股。有种跑ultra去,或者全麻进240,我觉得数据帝会是
: 第一个进240的版面ID。

b*******c
发帖数: 20683
37
他又没肥可减,估计就是去看MM奔片片的...

【在 w**********g 的大作中提到】
: 数据帝不算,他已经是肥版的人了
R*****s
发帖数: 41236
38
充分说明testosterone越跑越少是个伪命题....
我查了查,造成testosterone减少的原因,还真没看到长跑这一项,
跟说肌肉越跑越少一样,都是不跑步的人幻想出来的:
What Causes Low Testosterone?
http://www.webmd.com/erectile-dysfunction/guide/testosterone-re

【在 b*******c 的大作中提到】
: 他又没肥可减,估计就是去看MM奔片片的...
w**********g
发帖数: 2077
39
刚看完Arthur Lydiard的Running To The Top。书中提到长跑不能提高荷尔蒙,但也没
说会降低。
不过Lydiard也没啥文化,非跑步的我也没法信他。

【在 R*****s 的大作中提到】
: 充分说明testosterone越跑越少是个伪命题....
: 我查了查,造成testosterone减少的原因,还真没看到长跑这一项,
: 跟说肌肉越跑越少一样,都是不跑步的人幻想出来的:
: What Causes Low Testosterone?
: http://www.webmd.com/erectile-dysfunction/guide/testosterone-re

R*****s
发帖数: 41236
40
就算能降低, 也和跑量有关, 一周跑不到40迈的人, 整天担心跑掉肌肉, 跑掉荷尔蒙,
基本是杞人忧天...
我觉得体脂倒是一个衡量因素, 脂肪高的估计都是雌激素多, 雄激素少....

【在 w**********g 的大作中提到】
: 刚看完Arthur Lydiard的Running To The Top。书中提到长跑不能提高荷尔蒙,但也没
: 说会降低。
: 不过Lydiard也没啥文化,非跑步的我也没法信他。

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R*****s
发帖数: 41236
41
数据帝进240, FukQ 应该没啥悬念...

【在 d******0 的大作中提到】
: 嗯,骂人不好,要拖出去打屁股。有种跑ultra去,或者全麻进240,我觉得数据帝会是
: 第一个进240的版面ID。

R*****s
发帖数: 41236
42
我这回去梵蒂冈亲眼看到新教皇他老人家, 非常亲民.....

【在 j*********r 的大作中提到】
: 呵呵,其实也是差不多,圣经不也是文学作品么?或者说每个跑者心中都有一个不同的
: BTR,正如每个人心中都有一本不同的圣经。

j*********r
发帖数: 24733
43
呵呵,他是挺有意思的,以前年轻的时候还给酒吧看过门。

【在 R*****s 的大作中提到】
: 我这回去梵蒂冈亲眼看到新教皇他老人家, 非常亲民.....
1 (共1页)
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