g********d
发帖数: 4174 | 1 回答某网友关于SB４８的两个问题：
本来不不屑于他的问题，因为没有尊重就没有对话的基础。第一个问题已经讨论多很多
次，但是其他的人可能对第二个问题有兴趣。
１。同性恋正常不正常取决于正常的定义是什么和用什么眼光来看，正如你看同性恋游
行，和kathylucy看到的是不一样的。但是，美国精神病学会在上个世纪７０年代中国
在９０年代就已经把同性恋从Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental
Disorders去掉了。为什么生活中认识同性恋的人更倾向于支持平权，因为他们看到同
性恋除了性取向不一样外，和异性恋是一样的人。
２。很多研究表明同性恋家庭的小孩和其他家庭的小孩在各方面包括性取向没有什么不
同。这在学术界是个共识，以至于主要学术组织包括the American Academy of
Pediatrics都支持gay and lesbian parental rights。这是PROP ８支持者输掉的原因
之一。
如果同性恋父母都不会影响小孩的性取向，在某个教科书提到某个历史名人就更不会了。
但是另外一方面，父母的护DU之情应该可以理解，哪怕他们的担心是基于误导或是没有
更新的知识。如果争取平权的同时可以容忍教堂对同性恋的不接受，为什么不能给父母
在小孩教育方面一些空间呢。如果为了反BULLYING，我认为反BULLYING法比SB４８更有
效，这是我对SB４８的不同看法。
有兴趣的朋友可以看
http://www.mitbbs.com/clubarticle_t/LGBT_News/119763.html
文献分为几大类：
1.Factors predicting children's adjustment.
2.The sexual orientation of parents does not predict their children's
adjustment.
3.Same-sex couples can provide stable enviroments within which children can
thrive.
4.Children do not need dual-gender parenting or two parents to in order to
be adjusted.
5.Children raised by same-sex parents are not more likely to have same-sex
orientations themselves.
6.Sexual orientation does not affect the likelihood people will abuse
children.
7.Non-biologically related parents are capable of raising children as
effectively as biological parents. | g*****h
发帖数: 81 | 2 Well, those are all loaded questions and the rest are derogatory comments
full of hatred. There is really no common ground for discussion like you
said.
At some point you'll just have to agree to disagree with them.
【在 g********d 的大作中提到】
: 回答某网友关于SB４８的两个问题：
: 本来不不屑于他的问题，因为没有尊重就没有对话的基础。第一个问题已经讨论多很多
: 次，但是其他的人可能对第二个问题有兴趣。
: １。同性恋正常不正常取决于正常的定义是什么和用什么眼光来看，正如你看同性恋游
: 行，和kathylucy看到的是不一样的。但是，美国精神病学会在上个世纪７０年代中国
: 在９０年代就已经把同性恋从Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental
: Disorders去掉了。为什么生活中认识同性恋的人更倾向于支持平权，因为他们看到同
: 性恋除了性取向不一样外，和异性恋是一样的人。
: ２。很多研究表明同性恋家庭的小孩和其他家庭的小孩在各方面包括性取向没有什么不
: 同。这在学术界是个共识，以至于主要学术组织包括the American Academy of
| w*l
发帖数: 2550 | 3 第一个问题：
同性恋是怎么从APA的疾病名单上剔除的？是通过暴力和恐吓，而不是靠“科学进步”。
http://www.massresistance.org/docs/gen/08a/born_gay_hoax/TheBor
“It was never a medical decision—and that’s why I think the action came
so
fast…It was a political move.” “That’s how far we’ve come in ten years.
Now we even
have the American Psychiatric Association running scared.”
(Barbara Gittings, Pro‐Sodomy Activist)
In an effort to remove “Homosexuality” from the DSM pro‐sodomy
activists began a program of intimidation aimed at the American Psychiatric
Association circa 1970.
Led by radicals like Franklin Kameny, pro‐sodomy activists attacked
psychiatrists across America, as Newsweekdescribes:“But even more than
the government, it is the psychiatrists who have experienced the full 、
rage of the homosexual activists. Over the past two years,gay‐lib
organizations have repeatedly disrupted medical meetings, and three
months ago—in the movements most aggressive demonstration so far—a group
of 30 militants broke into a meeting of the American Psychiatric Association
in Washington, where they turned the staid proceedings into near chaos for
twenty minutes. ‘We are here to denounce your authority to call us sick or
mentally disordered,’ shouted the group’s leader, shocked psychiatrists
looked
on in disbelief. ‘For us, as homosexuals, your profession is the enemy
incarnate. We demand that psychiatrists treat us as
human beings, not as patients to be cured!’”
第二个问题：
环境和教育会影响儿童性取向，这是有研究证明的。我没有时间一一翻文献，就从“同
性恋科学家”的结论是没有影响的综述里面找证据。
下面列的是gay supporter “scientist”的一片文章：
Children of Lesbian and Gay parents: a review of the literature.
Marriage and Family Review, 1999, 29: 57-75
pdf在：
http://faculty.spokanefalls.edu/InetShare/AutoWebs/kimt/AW%20ar
关于同性恋收养孩子的性取向，这篇综述的作者总结的是：
All of the studies conducted thus far,with one exception
(Cameron & Cameron, 1996), inducate that gay and lesbian
parents are no more likely to produe gay and lesbian
children than their heterosexual counterparts.
在他列举的支持他的“no more likely”的研究里面， 其中的一项研究：
A Study conducted by Bailey, Bobroe, Wolfe, and
Mikach (1995) examined 55 gay or bisecual fathers'
reports of their 82 sons' sexual orientations.
Results indicated that 90% of these sons were
heterosexual.
This study was reviewed in a gay-supporting "scientist",
with this data, she concluded that "...suggesting
that having a gay father does not substantially
increase the likelihood of sons becoming gay adults".
What about the normal precentage of gay mens among
whole population? 一般相信大约是3%。Isnt 10% much more than that?
下面是另外一项。
注意前一段评价的地方是这个gay scientist做的。括号内的是作者原文，
我还没有找原文确认。
Colombok and Tasker (1996) conducted one of the few
longitudinal studies to investigate the impact on children
raised by lesbian mothers. The data were collected in 1997
from 25 choldren of lesbian mothers and a control group of
21 children of heterosexual single mothers with follow up
date collected in 1992. The average age of the children at
the two times of data collection were 9.5 and 23.5 years of
age, respectively. Th research used standardized interviews
to obtain data on sexual orientation, which resulted in the
finding that a substantial majority of children who grew up
in lesbian families self-identified as being heterosexual.
However, some interating additional findings were evident:
"...thos who had grown up in a lesbian family were more
likely to consider the possibility of having lesbian or gay
relatinshion..."
注意上面讲的两个研究没有在它所列的“one exception”里面，这两个
是用来证明它的“no more likely”的观点的。该“科学家”没有除了列
个名字之外，根本没有提那个“exception”研究做了什么，什么结果。
Gay “scientist”篡改引用别人的研究成果，然后就堂而皇之地得到了
“no more likely”的结论。这些结论出现在新闻媒体上，居然就成了
“These children do just fine”。很多人大概没有功夫查原始文献，
就相信接受了。其实事实和同性恋所宣传的根本不一样。
【在 g********d 的大作中提到】
: 回答某网友关于SB４８的两个问题：
: 本来不不屑于他的问题，因为没有尊重就没有对话的基础。第一个问题已经讨论多很多
: 次，但是其他的人可能对第二个问题有兴趣。
: １。同性恋正常不正常取决于正常的定义是什么和用什么眼光来看，正如你看同性恋游
: 行，和kathylucy看到的是不一样的。但是，美国精神病学会在上个世纪７０年代中国
: 在９０年代就已经把同性恋从Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental
: Disorders去掉了。为什么生活中认识同性恋的人更倾向于支持平权，因为他们看到同
: 性恋除了性取向不一样外，和异性恋是一样的人。
: ２。很多研究表明同性恋家庭的小孩和其他家庭的小孩在各方面包括性取向没有什么不
: 同。这在学术界是个共识，以至于主要学术组织包括the American Academy of
| q*******1
发帖数: 2831 | 4 真他娘的放屁！你把临床观察的结果当成什么了？感情科学家这些年的研究都是屈从于
政治？世界上精神科的医生都是吃白饭的？都迫于压力去撒这么个弥天大谎？天下就存
你这么一个正义的人！
我觉得你这么执着地传播一知半解的东西，这么执着的敌视一群人，有点偏执的倾向，
也许你该去找医生看看！
”。
years.
【在 w*l 的大作中提到】
: 第一个问题：
: 同性恋是怎么从APA的疾病名单上剔除的？是通过暴力和恐吓，而不是靠“科学进步”。
: http://www.massresistance.org/docs/gen/08a/born_gay_hoax/TheBor
: “It was never a medical decision—and that’s why I think the action came
: so
: fast…It was a political move.” “That’s how far we’ve come in ten years.
: Now we even
: have the American Psychiatric Association running scared.”
: (Barbara Gittings, Pro‐Sodomy Activist)
: In an effort to remove “Homosexuality” from the DSM pro‐sodomy
| l*******y
发帖数: 222 | 5 没学过统计就不要出来现了。假设伯努利实验，82个sample, 10%的95%正态分布置信区
间是1.96*sqrt(0.1*0.9/82)=6.5%. 也就是说这个真正的概率在3.5%到16.5%之间都有
可能。
学术界对同性恋比例的估计是3%到6%，所以这个论文的结论没有任何问题。你还是歇歇
吧，不懂学术偏要装懂，找来了原始文献不懂装懂。
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_mental_health.
All surveys are likely to underestimate the actual prevalence of
homosexuality because, fearing discrimination and stigma, many gay
respondents are reluctant to tell a stranger (even anonymously) that they
are homosexual (e.g., Villarroel et al., 2006). Recognizing this limitation,
most research with probability samples suggests that at least 3-6% of the
US adult male population is homosexual, with somewhat fewer females (Fay,
Turner, Klassen, & Gagnon, 1989; Hatfield, 1989; Laumann, Gagnon, Michael, &
Michaels, 1994; Lever & Kanouse, 1996; Rogers & Turner, 1991).
A Study conducted by Bailey, Bobroe, Wolfe, and
Mikach (1995) examined 55 gay or bisecual fathers'
reports of their 82 sons' sexual orientations.
Results indicated that 90% of these sons were
heterosexual.
This study was reviewed in a gay-supporting "scientist",
with this data, she concluded that "...suggesting
that having a gay father does not substantially
increase the likelihood of sons becoming gay adults".
What about the normal precentage of gay mens among
whole population? 一般相信大约是3%。Isnt 10% much more than that?
【在 w*l 的大作中提到】
: 第一个问题：
: 同性恋是怎么从APA的疾病名单上剔除的？是通过暴力和恐吓，而不是靠“科学进步”。
: http://www.massresistance.org/docs/gen/08a/born_gay_hoax/TheBor
: “It was never a medical decision—and that’s why I think the action came
: so
: fast…It was a political move.” “That’s how far we’ve come in ten years.
: Now we even
: have the American Psychiatric Association running scared.”
: (Barbara Gittings, Pro‐Sodomy Activist)
: In an effort to remove “Homosexuality” from the DSM pro‐sodomy
| m******1
发帖数: 19713 | 6 发信人: cuisine (好吃懒做), 信区: LES
标 题: Re: 请有专业知识的人帮忙回下这个帖子，谢谢！ (转载)
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sun Oct 2 15:47:40 2011, 美东)
回答他的第一题，“同性恋是怎么从APA的疾病名单上剔除的？是通过暴力和恐吓，而
不是靠‘科学进步’。”
他还真是猪八戒倒打一耙。做过一点点research就会知道，当时的严重暴力和恐吓都是
所谓的正常人针对ppl with different sexual orientation进行的。在被惨绝人寰的
压迫下出现一两个极端抗争的例子也是情理之中。
APA对此解释说明得很清楚.
Since 1975, the American Psychological Association has called on
psychologists to take the lead in removing the stigma of mental illness that
has long been associated with lesbian, gay, and bisexual orientations. The
discipline of psychology is concerned with the well-being of people and
groups and therefore with threats to that well-being. The prejudice and
discrimination that people who identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual
regularly experience have been shown to have negative psychological effects.
This information is designed to provide accurate information for those who
want to better understand sexual orientation and the impact of prejudice and
discrimination on those who identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual.
Lesbian, gay, and bisexual people around the world encounter extensive
prejudice, discrimination, and violence because of their sexual orientation.
Intense prejudice against lesbians, gay men, and bisexual people was
widespread throughout much of the 20th century. Public opinion studies over
the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s routinely showed that, among large segments of
the public, lesbian, gay, and bisexual people were the target of strongly
held negative attitudes. More recently, public opinion has increasingly
opposed sexual orientation discrimination, but expressions of hostility
toward lesbians and gay men remain common in contemporary American society.
Prejudice against bisexuals appears to exist at comparable levels. In fact,
bisexual individuals may face discrimination from some lesbian and gay
people as well as from heterosexual people.
Sexual orientation discrimination takes many forms. Severe antigay prejudice
is reflected in the high rate of harassment and violence directed toward
lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals in American society. Numerous surveys
indicate that verbal harassment and abuse are nearly universal experiences
among lesbian, gay, and bisexual people. Also, discrimination against
lesbian, gay, and bisexual people in employment and housing appears to
remain widespread.
Is homosexuality a mental disorder?
No, lesbian, gay, and bisexual orientations are not disorders. Research has
found no inherent association between any of these sexual orientations and
psychopathology. Both heterosexual behavior and homosexual behavior are
normal aspects of human sexuality. Both have been documented in many
different cultures and historical eras. Despite the persistence of
stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed,
several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream
medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that
these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. Lesbian, gay,
and bisexual relationships are normal forms of human bonding. Therefore,
these mainstream organizations long ago abandoned classifications of
homosexuality as a mental disorder.
如果“科学进步”意味着可以随意剥夺他人的任何个人权利和人身自由甚至生命，那只
能说明科学和这个社会的倒退。
”。
years. | m******8
发帖数: 2153 | 7 here are what a psychologist said:
=======
Question 1: The removal of homosexuality from the DSM was based more on
politics than on research.
There was a little bit of research at the time, and it showed that if you
show psychologists/psychiatrists the mental health testing results of
homosexual and non-homosexual people, the doctors couldn’t tell them apart.
But this research was not plentiful and was limited in its scope. However,
since the removal of homosexuality from the DSM, it has become very clear
from new research that:
a) homosexual people do not have higher rates of psychotic illness,
personality disorders, paraphilias, and other mental illnesses;
b) homosexual people are more likely to suffer from depression, anxiety,
substance abuse, and suicidal ideation;
c) the latter is probably linked to prejudice and discrimination they
experience as teenagers and young adults;
d) after homosexual people come out of the closet, their mental health
improves: they feel better, socialize more, and have less anonymous sex.
( e) homosexual men are not more promiscuous than heterosexual men –
homosexual men have sex less often than heterosexual men, but homosexual men
have more partners; if asked how many sexual partners they would like to
have, heterosexual and homosexual men both endorse very high numbers;
heterosexual men appear to have fewer opportunities for sex with multiple
partners because of the pressure women exert on them; some heterosexual men
say that they would like to have sex with hundreds and thousands of women;
homosexual women generally are not at all promiscuous. Recent evidence
suggests that the introduction of marriage equality has actually increased
the number of gay people in the population who are interested in
relationships and in monogamous relationships. )
Question 2:
(What about the normal precentage of gay mens among whole population? 3%。
Isnt 10% much more than that?)
2a) The percentage of homosexual men in the community is not known. About 4%
in the US across surveys identify as gay or homosexual, but this does not
include men who have not come out of the closet, who avoid participating in
surveys because they are afraid of disclosing their sexual orientation, or
who have sex with men but do not “identify” as homosexual or gay. Notice
also that these are surveys and not actual laboratory measures or
observations of actual behavior.
2b) The bigger problem with Question 2 is why would anyone assume that it is
a bad thing for children to turn out gay when it really is not a bad thing.
2c)The study by Colombok and Tasker (1996) has been misinterpreted
frequently in the media – as if the study suggests that the children raised
by lesbians are more likely to be gay; However, what the data actually
suggest is that these children are simply more open-minded about sexuality
and about experimenting with sexuality, not that the children are actually
in any way more likely to be homosexual. |
|
