f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 1 3.5x with AQo at CO, BB (a regular) calls.
flop: QT8 rainbow (pot $3.75).
he check raises my $2 to $5.5, i raise back to $13 (put him on x% probe) and
he calls.
turn: 2, he check calls my smallish $4.
river: Q, he checks.
we both got $80 behind. |
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 2 I think your value should come from turn if you do have the winnning hand.. i like betting at least 15$ turn probably check behind river.. as played 20$/fold. 2 and Q here are both blank pretty much. nothing has changed since flop except forfeited bottom 2 pair. |
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 3 and flat his flop check raise probably the best. 3 bet that accomplishes
nothing.. flat and 2/3 pot if he checks to you on the turn |
f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 4 i don't like my turn bet either. it's just a random thought and not in line
with my flop raise (size, strength, etc.). it could confuse him but myself
too.
he's a regular and i give him some credits for having a hand.
still, (no matter how) but here we're on the river, what to do?
. i like betting at least 15$ turn probably check behind river.. as played
20$/fold. 2 and Q here are both blank pretty much. nothing has changed
since flop except forfeited bottom 2 pair.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: I think your value should come from turn if you do have the winnning hand.. i like betting at least 15$ turn probably check behind river.. as played 20$/fold. 2 and Q here are both blank pretty much. nothing has changed since flop except forfeited bottom 2 pair.
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W********m
发帖数: 7793 | |
p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 6 or slow played KK/AA
. i like betting at least 15$ turn probably check behind river.. as played
20$/fold. 2 and Q here are both blank pretty much. nothing has changed
since flop except forfeited
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: I think your value should come from turn if you do have the winnning hand.. i like betting at least 15$ turn probably check behind river.. as played 20$/fold. 2 and Q here are both blank pretty much. nothing has changed since flop except forfeited bottom 2 pair.
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f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 7 against a "normal" guy, i might choose to flat flop since i got all the
goods and board is relatively safe with my position.
against him, who's a regular and with avg+ aggressive, i guess it's ok to
mix with a raise here.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: and flat his flop check raise probably the best. 3 bet that accomplishes
: nothing.. flat and 2/3 pot if he checks to you on the turn
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W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 8 respectfully disagree~~~~
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: against a "normal" guy, i might choose to flat flop since i got all the
: goods and board is relatively safe with my position.
: against him, who's a regular and with avg+ aggressive, i guess it's ok to
: mix with a raise here.
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f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 9 pot is about $30, you mean $20 and fold trip Qs here when he comes on top?
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: as played 20$/fold.
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W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 10 He could totally call your 3 bet on the flop with Q10 Q8 here but he is
check raising all in river with a very narrow range. He also very unlikely to bluff here as played. i assume he check raise all in right? that is 80$ shove over your 20$ bet.. snap fold unless his showdown winning is like 20%.
That is the problem with the 3 bet, the range he continues is very very narrow. You only get value form KQ really anything else have you beat. There are just not so many people check riase all in bluff at NL50 |
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f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 11 as BB, his check raising size is pretty suspicious to me, my hand is strong
but has little room to improve. if i flat 100% here, isn't it predicatable?
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: respectfully disagree~~~~
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f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 12 i create a problem for myself with my turn tiny bet and i tank on the river
when he checks to me. finally i chicken since we're 160BB deep, and bet $5 (
lol) to test water, he snap calls with ... AA.
not a hand i like for tonight.
to bluff here as played. i assume he check raise all in right? that is
80$ shove over your 20$ bet.. snap fold unless his showdown winning is like
20%.
narrow. You only get value form KQ really anything else have you beat.
There are just not so many people check riase all in bluff at NL50
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: He could totally call your 3 bet on the flop with Q10 Q8 here but he is
: check raising all in river with a very narrow range. He also very unlikely to bluff here as played. i assume he check raise all in right? that is 80$ shove over your 20$ bet.. snap fold unless his showdown winning is like 20%.
: That is the problem with the 3 bet, the range he continues is very very narrow. You only get value form KQ really anything else have you beat. There are just not so many people check riase all in bluff at NL50
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W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 13 If you want to 3 bet to mix it up here.. i would rather 3 bet with KJ. not a hand that you might be drawing to 3 outs or dead. Don't over play AQ here.
strong
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: as BB, his check raising size is pretty suspicious to me, my hand is strong
: but has little room to improve. if i flat 100% here, isn't it predicatable?
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f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 14 against defending BB only, i guess AQ or TPTK here is much stronger, right?
if i only 3 bet with strong draws or sets (too strong for losing value
concern?), or fold air, or call a barrel with marginal Qx/PP. and nothing in
the middle, is it good?
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: If you want to 3 bet to mix it up here.. i would rather 3 bet with KJ. not a hand that you might be drawing to 3 outs or dead. Don't over play AQ here.
:
: strong
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f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 15 against a regular at BB, i'm fully prepared with his flop check raise on QT8
most of time (it certainly hits almost his full range, just big or medium) to
defend against CO.
my $13 3-bet is designed for him to fold and shows him i could be serious
here too. on the other hand, i could not let semi hands like 9Ts or Q9o come
along for a ride too cheaply. for the remaining cards in the deck (coming on
turn/river), almost anything >7 could kill further action. that's a whole
lot of cards, hehe.
i admit i'm surprised with his call though, and that leads to my
inconsiderate turn and river plays.
river, he could check shove with a lot of Qx/88/TT too, i only beat half
with kicker. if i bet $20, for KQo/QJs alike, it'll be "easy" for him to
make a mistake by shoving or "tough" for me to make a mistake by folding.
but $5 is indeed a joke. $10-$12 or so should get weaker hands to call.
a hand that you might be drawing to 3 outs or dead. Don't over play AQ
here.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: If you want to 3 bet to mix it up here.. i would rather 3 bet with KJ. not a hand that you might be drawing to 3 outs or dead. Don't over play AQ here.
:
: strong
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D*A
发帖数: 1169 | 16 i think, as played he simply could not have better hands than you AQ at
river
and
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: 3.5x with AQo at CO, BB (a regular) calls.
: flop: QT8 rainbow (pot $3.75).
: he check raises my $2 to $5.5, i raise back to $13 (put him on x% probe) and
: he calls.
: turn: 2, he check calls my smallish $4.
: river: Q, he checks.
: we both got $80 behind.
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z**********3
发帖数: 178 | 17 bet big enough hoping AA KK to call.
and
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: 3.5x with AQo at CO, BB (a regular) calls.
: flop: QT8 rainbow (pot $3.75).
: he check raises my $2 to $5.5, i raise back to $13 (put him on x% probe) and
: he calls.
: turn: 2, he check calls my smallish $4.
: river: Q, he checks.
: we both got $80 behind.
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f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 18 yes, most likely, after two checks on turn and river. i don't put him on AA
though, but river bet should still be bigger.
a problematic hand for review, weakish after he calls my flop 3bet, and lose
plans for turn/river.
【在 D*A 的大作中提到】
: i think, as played he simply could not have better hands than you AQ at
: river
:
: and
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f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 19 long time no see, hehe.
【在 z**********3 的大作中提到】
: bet big enough hoping AA KK to call.
:
: and
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W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 20 "a problematic hand for review, weakish after he calls my flop 3bet.
i admit i'm surprised with his call though, and that leads to my
inconsiderate turn and river plays.
my $13 3-bet is designed for him to fold"
This is where the flaw of your logic is. you bet for him to fold a worse hand? and when he calls you feel behind? This is very bad play at any level. You bet to let weak hand call and make better hand to fold. It achieves neither here because your value range is so thin KQ QJ. In a way ahead way behind situation where your hand will not improve anymore, your goal should not be play aggressively at flop and let villian continue only with the top of his range. You should pot control and keep all his hand range alive. How many times you raise and 3 bet flop with tptk and over pair and when called you know you are beat more than you beat your villian? it is always a bad play. |
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f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 21 well, you're talking out of the context of BB vs. CO.
again, if this hand is against an EP/MP or a guy whom i have little info. on
, yes, then TPTK here is not strong enough to play for a big pot. as i
posted above, i fold or become cautious in a lot of other AQ alike
situations.
against BB (and aggression level between CO/BTN/SB/BB alike), you can't
simply flat AQ here all the time. QT8 rainbow hits his range well with a lot
of gutshots+pairs. even you flat here against his KQ/QJ/Q9/ alike, what do
you do when any >7 card shows up on turn and river? there's almost no card
to help your hand (excpet Q, not even A because it's useless to you), either
getting more value or avoiding suckouts.
and, flatting here for his $5.5 (which could well be a probe raise against
CO's air c-bet), you invite a lot of troubles with good odds for him.
no matter what comes on the turn, it'll be more expensive to shut him down.
as played, apparently he's trapping me pre (he 3-bets a lot), while taking
me too seriously post flop with my 3-bet, his turn/river action is chicken for
real and for pot control.
hand? and when he calls you feel behind? This is very bad play at any
level. You bet to let weak hand call and make better hand to fold. It
achieves neither here because your value range is so thin KQ QJ. In a way
ahead way behind situation where your hand will not improve anymore, your
goal should not be play aggressively at flop and let villian continue only
with the top of his range. You should pot control and keep : all his hand
range alive. How many times you raise and 3 bet flop with tptk and over pair
and when called you know you are beat more than you beat your villian? it
is always a bad play.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: "a problematic hand for review, weakish after he calls my flop 3bet.
: i admit i'm surprised with his call though, and that leads to my
: inconsiderate turn and river plays.
: my $13 3-bet is designed for him to fold"
: This is where the flaw of your logic is. you bet for him to fold a worse hand? and when he calls you feel behind? This is very bad play at any level. You bet to let weak hand call and make better hand to fold. It achieves neither here because your value range is so thin KQ QJ. In a way ahead way behind situation where your hand will not improve anymore, your goal should not be play aggressively at flop and let villian continue only with the top of his range. You should pot control and keep all his hand range alive. How many times you raise and 3 bet flop with tptk and over pair and when called you know you are beat more than you beat your villian? it is always a bad play.
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W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 22 3 bet with tptk is fine if you think your hand is strong enough and your
value range is wide to stack him with TPTK. but you obviously was not
trying to stack him here because you obviously start to have doubts in your mind when he called based on your sizing on turn and river. Now think about why are you really raising here for value or for bluff or like you said "i want him to fold a worse hand at a WAHB situation"?. |
f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 23 i guess you're assuming i'd call for sure if he 4-bets on the flop or play
for stacks, no, not in a 180BB+ sitatuion against a regular, hehe.
i'm simply playing straight forward poker against BB, with a hand with
little chance to improve. my goal is to win right here.
again, flatting here against him would cause quite some troubles for any >7
card coming. i'd check behind a lot or get little value down the road even
if i still hold the best hand.
i agree turn/river are poorly played due to not prepared for his call.
your mind when he called based on your sizing on turn and river. Now think
about why are you really raising here for value or for bluff or like you
said "i want him to fold a worse hand at a WAHB situation"?.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 3 bet with tptk is fine if you think your hand is strong enough and your
: value range is wide to stack him with TPTK. but you obviously was not
: trying to stack him here because you obviously start to have doubts in your mind when he called based on your sizing on turn and river. Now think about why are you really raising here for value or for bluff or like you said "i want him to fold a worse hand at a WAHB situation"?.
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W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 24 No i am not assuming anything here. i know you will fold to his 4 bet most
of the time since you don't even dare to bet turn and river when he called.
I am just saying that the "to win it right here and fold worse hand by 3
betting flop" logic is seriously flawed. |
f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 25 you confused me, hehe, why "to win it right here and fold worse hand by 3
betting flop" is flawed?
what worse hands you want to keep in and expect to get more value later by
flatting here, AND, from generally weakish BB? (position, not player
specific)
look at the flop again, QT8, give me 3 hands that would potentially meet our
goal by flatting here? either they'd fire a second barrel out of position
or we could get them to call a barrel... don't tell me we plan to check twice
behind.
.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: No i am not assuming anything here. i know you will fold to his 4 bet most
: of the time since you don't even dare to bet turn and river when he called.
: I am just saying that the "to win it right here and fold worse hand by 3
: betting flop" logic is seriously flawed.
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z**********3
发帖数: 178 | |
W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 27 think like this.
what is his check raise range on the flop? what is his continuation range after you 3 bet flop? what is his turn c bet range if you just call turn? what is his calling range on the turn after you 3 bet the flop? what is his calling range on the turn if you flat his check raise and he check to you? Bottom line, we do not want to play against the top of villian's range in a WAWB situation.
our
twice
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: you confused me, hehe, why "to win it right here and fold worse hand by 3
: betting flop" is flawed?
: what worse hands you want to keep in and expect to get more value later by
: flatting here, AND, from generally weakish BB? (position, not player
: specific)
: look at the flop again, QT8, give me 3 hands that would potentially meet our
: goal by flatting here? either they'd fire a second barrel out of position
: or we could get them to call a barrel... don't tell me we plan to check twice
: behind.
:
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f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 28 against a "stealing" CO (and as avg+ aggr guy at BB), his flop check raise
range is pretty wide, which contains a lot of gutshots+pairs. the flop is
rainbow but very closely related, any >7 card would kill further action.
most likely he'll check a lot later to draw or trap, which makes my hand (no
rrom to improve) hard to play.
overall, i don't think this is a hand where i can extract more value later
if i flat. it's all about risk/reward.
after you 3 bet flop? what is his turn c bet range if you just call turn?
what is his calling range on the turn after you 3 bet the flop? what is his
calling range on the turn if you flat his check raise and he check to you?
Bottom line, we do not want to play against the top of villian's range in a
WAWB situation.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: think like this.
: what is his check raise range on the flop? what is his continuation range after you 3 bet flop? what is his turn c bet range if you just call turn? what is his calling range on the turn after you 3 bet the flop? what is his calling range on the turn if you flat his check raise and he check to you? Bottom line, we do not want to play against the top of villian's range in a WAWB situation.
:
: our
: twice
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h*******s
发帖数: 3932 | 29 I usually cbet more on this kind of flop, 70-80%. Turn I'll definitely bet
strong because I put him on draw. At river, I think I have him beat (draw,
T9, Js, QJ kind of hand). I will bet small to extract any possible value,
like 20% of pot. If he raise, I call.
and
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: 3.5x with AQo at CO, BB (a regular) calls.
: flop: QT8 rainbow (pot $3.75).
: he check raises my $2 to $5.5, i raise back to $13 (put him on x% probe) and
: he calls.
: turn: 2, he check calls my smallish $4.
: river: Q, he checks.
: we both got $80 behind.
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h*******s
发帖数: 3932 | 30 LOL that's why I want to bet very small on river here. Most of the time he
has nothing, so you can't extract any value with a larger bet, but you don't
want to check a trip either. And if he does have a monster, he usually won'
t raise you big because you bet smallish twice and raising big won't extract
value for him either. So if you bet 20% on river you can safely call a 3x
raise. I would say in that situation you could still win with trip Qs with a
better kicker.
The only tricky case is he raises allin. So he call your smallish turn bet,
then all of sudden wake up and check-raise you huge on river? I don't
believe him but I may fold anyway.
river
(
is
like
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: i create a problem for myself with my turn tiny bet and i tank on the river
: when he checks to me. finally i chicken since we're 160BB deep, and bet $5 (
: lol) to test water, he snap calls with ... AA.
: not a hand i like for tonight.
:
: to bluff here as played. i assume he check raise all in right? that is
: 80$ shove over your 20$ bet.. snap fold unless his showdown winning is like
: 20%.
: narrow. You only get value form KQ really anything else have you beat.
: There are just not so many people check riase all in bluff at NL50
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f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 31 simply put, we both messed up with an otherwise "normal" hand. i have more
notes on him and guess vice versa.
't
won'
extract
a
,
【在 h*******s 的大作中提到】
: LOL that's why I want to bet very small on river here. Most of the time he
: has nothing, so you can't extract any value with a larger bet, but you don't
: want to check a trip either. And if he does have a monster, he usually won'
: t raise you big because you bet smallish twice and raising big won't extract
: value for him either. So if you bet 20% on river you can safely call a 3x
: raise. I would say in that situation you could still win with trip Qs with a
: better kicker.
: The only tricky case is he raises allin. So he call your smallish turn bet,
: then all of sudden wake up and check-raise you huge on river? I don't
: believe him but I may fold anyway.
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