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TexasHoldem版 - 有没有人可以具体谈谈Pot Control?
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话题: pot话题: control话题: hand话题: when话题: bet
进入TexasHoldem版参与讨论
1 (共1页)
l*****g
发帖数: 1128
1
感觉不会Pot control 是我一个主要的leak,但又不知道到底怎么控制。看了一些书,
但还是不是很明白。有没人帮我普及一下?谢谢!
p****r
发帖数: 9164
2
Dan Harrintons's book has some chapters about pot control, but lots of
things you need to practice and learn yourself.
Basically, big hand , big pot, small hand small pot. Big hand are like, set
or straight etc, sometimes two pair. Small hand are usually one pair type
of hand ,like tptk, over pair etc.
When you have a strong hand , you wanna bet out , raise etc to build
the pot ,then get as much money in as possible so you can have chance to
make big bet or allin in later street. Yeah, you may lose a small bet when
you play fast with big hand when your opp does not have much, but the
reward of getting chance of taking big chunk or all of your opponenet's
stack is well worth it.
I think Durrrr is a master pot control. Watch some TV shows like Poker
After Dark cash game or high stakes poker, Million $ Cash game, observe how
he handles certain situation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZWJVtt0dKk

This is a good example I think. Also, watch how he played QQ in the same
game two times. (Poker After Dark S06 $150K Cash Game).
Post flop pot control is so important for deep stack NL game, especially
when you
play LAG preflop by balancing your raiseing or 3 betting range.






【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: 感觉不会Pot control 是我一个主要的leak,但又不知道到底怎么控制。看了一些书,
: 但还是不是很明白。有没人帮我普及一下?谢谢!

l*****g
发帖数: 1128
3
Thank you very much. It really helps. I lost a lot of money on top pair and
over pairs, which are only considered small hand. I guess I need to keep
that in mind when next time I play poker.
Love the video. Love Dwan.He is my hero. He is always willing to run twice
or even four times when he is ahead or way ahead. Very nice person.
Hopefully I can see him some day when I go to Vegas.

of
set
build
when

【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: Dan Harrintons's book has some chapters about pot control, but lots of
: things you need to practice and learn yourself.
: Basically, big hand , big pot, small hand small pot. Big hand are like, set
: or straight etc, sometimes two pair. Small hand are usually one pair type
: of hand ,like tptk, over pair etc.
: When you have a strong hand , you wanna bet out , raise etc to build
: the pot ,then get as much money in as possible so you can have chance to
: make big bet or allin in later street. Yeah, you may lose a small bet when
: you play fast with big hand when your opp does not have much, but the
: reward of getting chance of taking big chunk or all of your opponenet's

p****r
发帖数: 9164
4
I agree Tom is a nice guy, but honestly, running it twice has not much to
do with being nice. :). It does not change the EV at all. He is playing 200-
400 PLO at rio most of nights now.
There were some rumors before that he is a gay(with Phil.G according
to fullflush-a high stakes cash player from UK ), but he has a gf now. So
guess not. lol.
http://www.mitbbs.com/article/TexasHoldem/31204977_3.html

This is the hand that I played with a Germany nit on 2-4NL Rush before BF. I
think both of us played well postflop, both of us was trying to keep the pot
small with one over pair type of hand on a connected board. Certainly very
surprised and disappointed for me that not all money went to in preflop.

and

【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: Thank you very much. It really helps. I lost a lot of money on top pair and
: over pairs, which are only considered small hand. I guess I need to keep
: that in mind when next time I play poker.
: Love the video. Love Dwan.He is my hero. He is always willing to run twice
: or even four times when he is ahead or way ahead. Very nice person.
: Hopefully I can see him some day when I go to Vegas.
:
: of
: set
: build

l*****g
发帖数: 1128
5
http://www.mitbbs.com/article/TexasHoldem/31204977_3.html
That was a scary flop, so checking on the flop is very reasonable.
I guess I need to go to Rio to see Tom next time. I thought he played a lot
in Bellagio. You must've seen a lot of poker stars already since you live
there, right?

to
200-
according
. I
pot

【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: I agree Tom is a nice guy, but honestly, running it twice has not much to
: do with being nice. :). It does not change the EV at all. He is playing 200-
: 400 PLO at rio most of nights now.
: There were some rumors before that he is a gay(with Phil.G according
: to fullflush-a high stakes cash player from UK ), but he has a gf now. So
: guess not. lol.
: http://www.mitbbs.com/article/TexasHoldem/31204977_3.html
:
: This is the hand that I played with a Germany nit on 2-4NL Rush before BF. I
: think both of us played well postflop, both of us was trying to keep the pot

n******1
发帖数: 4742
6
small hand small pot

【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: 感觉不会Pot control 是我一个主要的leak,但又不知道到底怎么控制。看了一些书,
: 但还是不是很明白。有没人帮我普及一下?谢谢!

d*****0
发帖数: 1500
7
虽然我是个菜鸟 但是还是想插一句 windstorm有提到 在基于读牌的基础上 也就是你
确认很大比例上对方落后的情况下 你可以不受pot control想法的限制 尽量push对方
从而打到利润最大化
D*A
发帖数: 1169
8
我觉得Pot Control的概念要正确认识。它更多地是一个防守或者说passive的行动。
Pot Control 天然的就是—EV的,很简单,“假如”你相信你有正EV,你就应该百分百
投入。假如你相信你—EV,你就应该马上撤退,不应投入another penny。与你本身手
牌的强度没有关系。
但Pot Control 有一定的实际意义,一方面我们读牌不可能十分准确,Pot Control可
以让我们免于作艰难的决定,避免犯Costly的错误,利于减小Variance。



【在 d*****0 的大作中提到】
: 虽然我是个菜鸟 但是还是想插一句 windstorm有提到 在基于读牌的基础上 也就是你
: 确认很大比例上对方落后的情况下 你可以不受pot control想法的限制 尽量push对方
: 从而打到利润最大化

s*******o
发帖数: 4896
9
Pot Control也可以Induce bluff吧
这点上说,Pot Control未必就一定是-EV的

【在 D*A 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得Pot Control的概念要正确认识。它更多地是一个防守或者说passive的行动。
: Pot Control 天然的就是—EV的,很简单,“假如”你相信你有正EV,你就应该百分百
: 投入。假如你相信你—EV,你就应该马上撤退,不应投入another penny。与你本身手
: 牌的强度没有关系。
: 但Pot Control 有一定的实际意义,一方面我们读牌不可能十分准确,Pot Control可
: 以让我们免于作艰难的决定,避免犯Costly的错误,利于减小Variance。
:
: 方

D*A
发帖数: 1169
10
POT control 和induce bluff 是两回事,既然control pot,就不希望被bluff,
因为 bluff的Size 通常不会太小,而且用于pot control的hand 不会太大,面对一个
大size的bet(不管是不是bluff)会无所适从。这就违背了初衷。

【在 s*******o 的大作中提到】
: Pot Control也可以Induce bluff吧
: 这点上说,Pot Control未必就一定是-EV的

相关主题
最近玩得有点背To bluff or not to bluff river
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各位整体上rush poker战绩如何?hand review
进入TexasHoldem版参与讨论
c*****t
发帖数: 817
11
谈谈自己的理解。
我觉得就是你觉得自己基本上领先,但是SPR太高,你并不想commit打倒all in。所以
就slow down一条街。Pot control的时候,一般来说你也反正也不打算fold。所以你也
没兴趣bet out来find out自己是否真的领先。你只希望控制一下pot的大小而已。
比如说双方的stack都很深。我有pocket aces。pre flop我raise对方在大盲CALL。
Flop 上J T 9杂花。对方check。我会check behind。这里对方还是可能有straight或者two
pair。我一旦被check raise就很难受了。但是如果flop
上check check以后,我再call两条街就还算比较舒服。又比如,我有AK raise, flop
上K T T杂花。这种way ahead or way behind的牌面check behind问题也不大。 归根
到底,我觉得在特别危险的牌面或者way ahead or way behind的牌面上做pot control
是比较好。
另外,我只在自己牌很强非常不想fold,但是又没有好到能承受raise or check raise
的时候control。如果自己牌力一般,比如top pair with ok kicker。我会bet out
for value/information。如果被raise的话,我会fold。
c*****t
发帖数: 817
12
因为牌力较强,Pot control倒也不是完全怕bluff。
Pot control的时候最怕被人overbet你三条街。
但是一旦你成功check check一条街以后。后面两条街Pot control还真的不太怕被人
bet。你甚至还希望人家bet。因为pot control本来就是心理矛盾的体现。
比如你pocket aces遇到KTT的牌面。Flop check check。后面连续call对方在turn 和
river的pot-sized bet (这样正好想当于你SPR=4 全下)还是不难受的。尤其如果对
方是half-pot bet,再接一个pot-sized bet (现实中更多见这种情况)。就更没问题
了。

【在 D*A 的大作中提到】
: POT control 和induce bluff 是两回事,既然control pot,就不希望被bluff,
: 因为 bluff的Size 通常不会太小,而且用于pot control的hand 不会太大,面对一个
: 大size的bet(不管是不是bluff)会无所适从。这就违背了初衷。

p****r
发帖数: 9164
13
Very nice post.
I think pot control can go either way. Whey you hand is marginal, you
wanna get value from one street or two, like when you have AA on KTT
rainbow board. But you do not even have go all the way, since you can just
let it go against lot of opp when you get strong resistance based on betting
size/tell etc. Against lot of opp, you can easily fold AA when you got
raised any time on KTT board. Lots of time you may need a plan with your
hand.
On the other side, even more important, IMO, you need to build the pot when
you have a strong hand. When you play deep stack NL, that is a major part
of your long term profit. You barely wanna slow play much in a deepstack
game. That is also the major differnce beteen online game and live cash game.
Usually live game are a lot deeper.

Say when you call a raise at BB with a packet pair and flop a set,
you usually wanna bet out and hopefully get raised. Your opp will at least
call most of time with overpair and may even get cute and raise you with air
. Most of time when you make a strong hand in deep stack NL game, like
flop a set, hit the draw on the turn, you wanna make the pot bigger by
betting/raising/(check/raising) , so you can shove or make big bet at turn
or river acording to the pot size. Shoving 1000$ into a 200$ pot will a lot
unlikely get called compared to shoving 1000$ into a 1200$ pot.
All in with the nuts most of time, not with air. Lots of fish tend
to bet small with nuts in order to get paid and shove with missed draw etc.

或者two
flop
control
W********m
发帖数: 7793
14
Learning pot control is the first thing that turned me into a winning cash player at NL10/NL25 level on-line. It is very useful indeed, but mostly towards ordinary players (like almost everyone on live 1$/2$ player, even though you probably get even better ev by betting 3 street for value at live 1$/2$ table because most of them are worse than ordinary). when you are facing good aggressive player that can hand read and capable of turning a second pair into bluff, pot controlling is not going to work. Additionally too much pot controlling with top pair over pair on the turn make your second barrel range too narrow and polarized. Especially for someone who are
tight, their tight starting range + their pot control pretty much turn their hand face up on the river after they check turn. They can be easily bluffed or being taken to thin value town. Poker is ever evolving. Polarized range is a thing in the past when facing very good poker player. You need to be able to barrel with a wide depolarized range "with read" to edge out vs good players, who you might never see on a 1$/2$ table.
2 cents.
W********m
发帖数: 7793
15
I don't think one needs to pot controlling too much on live 1$/2$ table. If
you have tpgk or better, it is normally bet bet bet until you get raised
because most of player on live 1$/2$ table are loose passive. On the other
hand, facing weak tight player, maybe a little pot control is needed.
Because their flop calling range is very tight and their turn calling range
is even tighter. More importantly, they don't raise often on the flop even
with a relatively strong hand, this means when they call your flop bet, for
example, if you only have a tpwk, you might already be on the bottom half of
their flop continuation range. Among their flop continuation range, they
are not going to continue on turn on almost everything you beat. At this
spot, i think if you have a hand with a little value, opting to check turn
is probably good because there is no value at all to bet turn if you are not
planning to turn your hand into a bluff, and you might even squeeze out a
small value on the river by checking turn.
l*****g
发帖数: 1128
16
"I don't think one needs to pot controlling too much on live 1$/2$ table"___
______ I agree on this one now.
Yesterday I went to play poker after I learned the concept of pot control.
Well, the session didn't go well. I found out I lost my style when I was
trying to pot control. Usually, I am very aggressive, which is very
important when playing poker.I used to win at least 100 bucks from my
opponents most of times whenever my hands got to showdown on the river,, but
yesterday I didn't know how to play my style any more. I bet less than I
usually bet, and then they all sucked out on me. Every pot I won were much
smaller than I used to win before. I used to win a lot of money with my
second pair because I knew I was ahead and I bet a lot to charge them for
drawing hands. Anyway, the lesson I learned from yesterday is that you have
to bet aggressively when you know you're ahead, no matter it is a top pair
or second pair. However, when you know you're behind you have to fold no
matter what you have. Yesterday I was so lost and confused. I didn't even
know what I was doing. I played a lot of hands differently and it didn't
work out very well. So now I just decided to stick to my own playing style
and try to reduce my mistakes as much as possible.

If
range
for
of

【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: I don't think one needs to pot controlling too much on live 1$/2$ table. If
: you have tpgk or better, it is normally bet bet bet until you get raised
: because most of player on live 1$/2$ table are loose passive. On the other
: hand, facing weak tight player, maybe a little pot control is needed.
: Because their flop calling range is very tight and their turn calling range
: is even tighter. More importantly, they don't raise often on the flop even
: with a relatively strong hand, this means when they call your flop bet, for
: example, if you only have a tpwk, you might already be on the bottom half of
: their flop continuation range. Among their flop continuation range, they
: are not going to continue on turn on almost everything you beat. At this

p****r
发帖数: 9164
17
pot control is a lot more important when you are playing deep stack.
I do not play much 100 BB stack live game ,but lot of time you can get
decent value from tptk, over pair kind of hand. Poker is always very
situational, nothing is absolute. When you think you are ahead and you can
get value from your hand, just go for it. In heads up sitation, you can even
get lot of value from second pr or third pr.
No need to over adjust , but keeping pot control in mind is very
helpful when your stack is deeper or playing higher limit. When you are
playing 200BB+ effective , keep building big pot with one pair type of
hand is disaustous.

It is typical beginner 's mistake keep trying to protect their hand
and forget to protect their stack. I made this kind mistake a lot when
starting to play deep stack NL. Anyway, these thing may not be quite
relevant in 100BB- low stake NL game.
Certianly it is very situational.

__
but

【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: "I don't think one needs to pot controlling too much on live 1$/2$ table"___
: ______ I agree on this one now.
: Yesterday I went to play poker after I learned the concept of pot control.
: Well, the session didn't go well. I found out I lost my style when I was
: trying to pot control. Usually, I am very aggressive, which is very
: important when playing poker.I used to win at least 100 bucks from my
: opponents most of times whenever my hands got to showdown on the river,, but
: yesterday I didn't know how to play my style any more. I bet less than I
: usually bet, and then they all sucked out on me. Every pot I won were much
: smaller than I used to win before. I used to win a lot of money with my

p****r
发帖数: 9164
18
I think stackszie and opp are the key factors. When stacksize are short,
you do not need pot control much. Lot of time one pair is good enough to
take your opp's whole stack.
It certainly depends who you are playing against. Some ppl are willing to
pay you off with tp weak kicker or second pair, some ppl are only willing
to get in with at least a set.

player at NL10/NL25 level on-line. It is very useful indeed, but mostly
towards ordinary players (like almost everyone on live 1$/2$ player, even
though you probably get even better ev by betting 3 street for value at live
1$/2$ table because most of them are worse than ordinary). when you are
facing good aggressive player that can hand read and capable of turning a
second pair into bluff, pot controlling is not going to: work. Additionally
too much pot controlling with top pair over pair on the turn make your
second barrel range too narrow and polarized. Especially for someone who are
their hand face up on the river after they check turn. They can be easily
bluffed or being taken to thin value town. Poker is ever evolving. Polarized
range is a thing in the past when facing very good poker player. You need
to be able to barrel with a wide depolarized range "with read" to edge out
vs good players, who you might never see on a 1$/2$ table.

【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: Learning pot control is the first thing that turned me into a winning cash player at NL10/NL25 level on-line. It is very useful indeed, but mostly towards ordinary players (like almost everyone on live 1$/2$ player, even though you probably get even better ev by betting 3 street for value at live 1$/2$ table because most of them are worse than ordinary). when you are facing good aggressive player that can hand read and capable of turning a second pair into bluff, pot controlling is not going to work. Additionally too much pot controlling with top pair over pair on the turn make your second barrel range too narrow and polarized. Especially for someone who are
: tight, their tight starting range + their pot control pretty much turn their hand face up on the river after they check turn. They can be easily bluffed or being taken to thin value town. Poker is ever evolving. Polarized range is a thing in the past when facing very good poker player. You need to be able to barrel with a wide depolarized range "with read" to edge out vs good players, who you might never see on a 1$/2$ table.
: 2 cents.

l*****g
发帖数: 1128
19
“No need to over adjust , but keeping pot control in mind is very
helpful when your stack is deeper or playing higher limit”——agree.

even

【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: I think stackszie and opp are the key factors. When stacksize are short,
: you do not need pot control much. Lot of time one pair is good enough to
: take your opp's whole stack.
: It certainly depends who you are playing against. Some ppl are willing to
: pay you off with tp weak kicker or second pair, some ppl are only willing
: to get in with at least a set.
:
: player at NL10/NL25 level on-line. It is very useful indeed, but mostly
: towards ordinary players (like almost everyone on live 1$/2$ player, even
: though you probably get even better ev by betting 3 street for value at live

p****r
发帖数: 9164
20
妹妹 向职业牌手方向发展了?:)

【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: “No need to over adjust , but keeping pot control in mind is very
: helpful when your stack is deeper or playing higher limit”——agree.
:
: even

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进入TexasHoldem版参与讨论
f*****g
发帖数: 15860
21
It is typical beginner 's mistake keep trying to protect their hand
and forget to protect their stack
l*****g
发帖数: 1128
22
没有啊,玩1-3NL也会有deep stack的情况,所以POT CONTROL还是实用的。
职业牌手方向发展?怎么可能?有时连玩两天都觉得很腻,要我天天玩那不痛苦死?而
且我觉得Poker profession 是份很孤独的职业,没什么朋友,因为你不可能和你的桌
上的人交朋友。工作方式也不健康,一直坐着,然后脑力劳动消耗很大,所以我觉得把
poker当作业余爱好还是很不错的。再说,我的水平也远远没达到那个级别,还是发挥
很不稳定。

【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: 妹妹 向职业牌手方向发展了?:)
W********m
发帖数: 7793
23
actually, in deep stack poker, failing to pot control does not make someone
lose their whole stack. even if betting 3 streets, no one can put 500bb
effective stack into a pot at river. to protect your stack, it is much more
important to stop calling when facing obvious aggression and stronger hand
than betting into a weaker hand.
f*****g
发帖数: 15860
24
没有online,光live,尤其是低级别的pro,的确很难。
量上不去,一天撑死200把左右,和同时N桌不可同日而语,即使这N桌其实每桌赌注还
小些。online象悟空拔N根毛变N个真身,一起挣钱。
因为量小,swing,variance都相对较明显。
时间利用率低,多数时候都在旁观,虽然旁观也是搜集信息,分析对手的机会,但是总
的来讲,浪费很大。
长期的确不太健康,工作时间往往是熬夜班,鱼多的时候。
FBI这次真的是客观上基本消灭了一个工种。

【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: 没有啊,玩1-3NL也会有deep stack的情况,所以POT CONTROL还是实用的。
: 职业牌手方向发展?怎么可能?有时连玩两天都觉得很腻,要我天天玩那不痛苦死?而
: 且我觉得Poker profession 是份很孤独的职业,没什么朋友,因为你不可能和你的桌
: 上的人交朋友。工作方式也不健康,一直坐着,然后脑力劳动消耗很大,所以我觉得把
: poker当作业余爱好还是很不错的。再说,我的水平也远远没达到那个级别,还是发挥
: 很不稳定。

p****r
发帖数: 9164
25
Honestly I do not agree on this one. Poker is always a tradeoff and
balance, especailly deep stack game. Pot control is a important way to gain
long term EV.

Why keep building a big pot when you hand is marignal and keep putting
yourelf in a tough spot. In deep stack game, draw hand is a lot more
stronger than short stack. When you are holding a made hand in deep stack
game, you have to be willing to be drawn out sometime since your hand value
is getting worse in later street. I think Durrrr's pot control skill is one
of the best.

Pot control does not only mean check the turn, there are lost of
things that you can do to keep potsize that you like. Again, imo, pot
control does not mean keep it smaller, lots of time you want to make it
bigger and build a big pot with stronger hand and make your opponent "pot
stuck, so you will give him/her certain odds to pay you off on the river
when you have a stronger hand , like set, str, flush etc.


someone
more

【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: actually, in deep stack poker, failing to pot control does not make someone
: lose their whole stack. even if betting 3 streets, no one can put 500bb
: effective stack into a pot at river. to protect your stack, it is much more
: important to stop calling when facing obvious aggression and stronger hand
: than betting into a weaker hand.

p****r
发帖数: 9164
26
agree.
打live game,想make a living from poker, 我觉得至少有能力打 deep stack 2
-5(200BB+), 或者
5-10. 100BB cap的 2-5 很难make decent living. 我以前达很多no cap 的2-5
或5-10,
经常在2-5 上 有2-3k的stack. stack 越是deep,skill 要求越高。
还是online 比较容易 make a living. 听说DC 年底要有合法的online
game, 到时老大租俺一个房间把:)如收cc,鱼会不少。

【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: 没有online,光live,尤其是低级别的pro,的确很难。
: 量上不去,一天撑死200把左右,和同时N桌不可同日而语,即使这N桌其实每桌赌注还
: 小些。online象悟空拔N根毛变N个真身,一起挣钱。
: 因为量小,swing,variance都相对较明显。
: 时间利用率低,多数时候都在旁观,虽然旁观也是搜集信息,分析对手的机会,但是总
: 的来讲,浪费很大。
: 长期的确不太健康,工作时间往往是熬夜班,鱼多的时候。
: FBI这次真的是客观上基本消灭了一个工种。

f*****g
发帖数: 15860
27
live,俺以前错误认为颇有一些人能make a living,后来发现不然,真得是2/5NL这个
级别以上,技术,纪律性都很强的人才可能做到。
以前AC一个女的,很凶也很油那种,至少在俺观察在1/2NL是长期赢家,现在在
delaware park当dealer,很谦卑的样子,不知道是go broke了还是象当年david chiu
那样想通过发牌提高读人技术。不过,没挣着什么钱是肯定的。
象delaware park这样还算不小的场子,20几张cash,20张tourney,平时非周末也就1,
2张2/5NL的,估计打一个星期,就全混了脸熟,鲨鱼谁吃谁啊?
online,起点低,internet kid $100, $200就可以通过大量玩练技术,输光了也没什
么,父母再要一次就好了。搞正了赢个中号的tourney几千块,以后就上路了。$200这
点钱,战战惊惊的,在live还没搞清东南西北,就让别人给wipe out了。上周末就suck
out了两个这样的小伙子,呵呵。
至于DC合法化,俺是一点不关心,因为即使这样了,全美国其他地方不让玩也是废的,
鱼池子干了,有网也是白搭。就象现在有pro费劲周折到其他国家去打牌一样,没有以
前的大池塘,僧多粥少。

2
5

【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: agree.
: 打live game,想make a living from poker, 我觉得至少有能力打 deep stack 2
: -5(200BB+), 或者
: 5-10. 100BB cap的 2-5 很难make decent living. 我以前达很多no cap 的2-5
: 或5-10,
: 经常在2-5 上 有2-3k的stack. stack 越是deep,skill 要求越高。
: 还是online 比较容易 make a living. 听说DC 年底要有合法的online
: game, 到时老大租俺一个房间把:)如收cc,鱼会不少。

W********m
发帖数: 7793
28
people focus more on keeping pot small when talking about pot control is
because it is easier to build a big pot with very strong hand than keeping a
small pot with a marginal hand. From my observation, lz has no problem
winning big pot with very strong hand (2 pair +). My guess is that she is
mostly asking about how to keep pot small. I do want to mention here, slow
playing very strong hand is almost as bad as blowing up a big pot with
marginal hand if not worse for obvious reasons.
Obviously pot control including everything about manipulating different bet
sizing. Sizing is THE most important thing in NL holdem (I think i mentioned
this before). The ability to manipulating sizing to value bet and bluff
based on different hand strength/board structure/action is what differiate
players at different level. But we also need to understand that sizing is
also a huge tell towards very good players. for example, checking the turn
with 1 paired hand is a huge tell. Not only you lose a lot of value over
time (for a made hand that can not be further improved, you have more value
on the turn than river for obvious reasons), but also you will be put in a
very tough situation at river facing a good player, because you give the
range of your hand away. Overbetting river is exact designed to battle pot
control, which was probably never heard of several years back. There are
ways to make one's life simply miserable if trying to keep pot small too
much with 1 paired hand. Of course poker are all situational. but my word of
advise, never ever gives away your hand strength by a pattern of play vs a
good player. Trying too hard to keeping the pot small does exactly that,
like checking the turn even though "checking the turn != pot control". Yeah
i agree with what's quoted.

gain
value
one

【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: agree.
: 打live game,想make a living from poker, 我觉得至少有能力打 deep stack 2
: -5(200BB+), 或者
: 5-10. 100BB cap的 2-5 很难make decent living. 我以前达很多no cap 的2-5
: 或5-10,
: 经常在2-5 上 有2-3k的stack. stack 越是deep,skill 要求越高。
: 还是online 比较容易 make a living. 听说DC 年底要有合法的online
: game, 到时老大租俺一个房间把:)如收cc,鱼会不少。

W********m
发帖数: 7793
29
so many hurdles for live poker, skill, decipline, volume, variance.
but the biggest hurdle of all IMO is commuting time to the casino. 除非住在
casino 旁边,都是没戏。2 hours including back and forth on the road is way
too much. unless you play 10 hours session at least, it is not worth it. If
you do put in 10 hours on one session, your quality of life would be way
down with all the over nights you have to stay up. I could put in 60 hours
per month online because of its flexibility, but there is simply no way for
me personally to put in even 20 hours in the casino without getting a
lot of fuss from wife. Live poker would be forever only entertainment for me unless i could live 10 mins or less away from a casino.

chiu
1,
suck

【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: live,俺以前错误认为颇有一些人能make a living,后来发现不然,真得是2/5NL这个
: 级别以上,技术,纪律性都很强的人才可能做到。
: 以前AC一个女的,很凶也很油那种,至少在俺观察在1/2NL是长期赢家,现在在
: delaware park当dealer,很谦卑的样子,不知道是go broke了还是象当年david chiu
: 那样想通过发牌提高读人技术。不过,没挣着什么钱是肯定的。
: 象delaware park这样还算不小的场子,20几张cash,20张tourney,平时非周末也就1,
: 2张2/5NL的,估计打一个星期,就全混了脸熟,鲨鱼谁吃谁啊?
: online,起点低,internet kid $100, $200就可以通过大量玩练技术,输光了也没什
: 么,父母再要一次就好了。搞正了赢个中号的tourney几千块,以后就上路了。$200这
: 点钱,战战惊惊的,在live还没搞清东南西北,就让别人给wipe out了。上周末就suck

f*****g
发帖数: 15860
30
lol, i can see sth. coming.
MD is building its biggest casino right now which is only < 30 mins from
where i live. although it will only be slots for now, i have no doubt in 3
years time, table games will be added, just like WV/DE/PA, only a fool would
believe they borrowed millions of dollars just to host some stupid slot
machines in a premium location.
but until then, i guess i have other things to do, hehe.

If
for
me unless i could live 10 mins or less away from a casino.

【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: so many hurdles for live poker, skill, decipline, volume, variance.
: but the biggest hurdle of all IMO is commuting time to the casino. 除非住在
: casino 旁边,都是没戏。2 hours including back and forth on the road is way
: too much. unless you play 10 hours session at least, it is not worth it. If
: you do put in 10 hours on one session, your quality of life would be way
: down with all the over nights you have to stay up. I could put in 60 hours
: per month online because of its flexibility, but there is simply no way for
: me personally to put in even 20 hours in the casino without getting a
: lot of fuss from wife. Live poker would be forever only entertainment for me unless i could live 10 mins or less away from a casino.
:

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s*********k
发帖数: 1989
31
现在真是赌场要遍地开花, 我这儿说是要建六个赌场(六个,不是
我瞎扯。估计是小的)。

would

【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: lol, i can see sth. coming.
: MD is building its biggest casino right now which is only < 30 mins from
: where i live. although it will only be slots for now, i have no doubt in 3
: years time, table games will be added, just like WV/DE/PA, only a fool would
: believe they borrowed millions of dollars just to host some stupid slot
: machines in a premium location.
: but until then, i guess i have other things to do, hehe.
:
: If
: for

T*********k
发帖数: 1621
32
你们这些不知足的人啊。纽约市去所有的赌场都要 2 个半小时以上单程的距离,如果
有赌场 1 个小时左右就能到,真的笑也笑死了。
就是来回 5 个小时,无数赌巴都每天爆满,大批的大伯大妈们坚持每天往返,为的就
是赌场发的泥码可以换得 15-20 快的利润,一个月上班 30 天换取 600 元的生活费。
比比人家,你们真是生活在蜜糖里啊。
以扑克维生的话,理论上是做的到的,实际执行,最需要还是纪律性,很严格的 bank
roll management。我自量现在还做不到,可能永远也做不到,所以只能在打牌为消遣
的层次。这个月打了 3 天 2/5,前两次利润 > 3k, 最后一次输了超过一半回去。靠扑
克维生我就只能顿顿吃酱菜了,实际上,每个月的盈利最多也就抵伙食费而已。
言归正传吧,谈谈我对 pot control 的在 small stake 的应用上的理解和经验:
1. Stake 越高,筹码越深,Pot Control 就越重要。LZ MM 还没有体会到它的重要性
,可能跟 NL 1/2 game 本身比较 soft,weak player 比较多有关。好多 weak player
本身 buyin 也不多,$60 到 $100 左右,有一副牌,三两下就 pot commit 了,也谈
不到什么 pot control。再有很多 fish,手里 有 A6+ 以上,flop 到一对 A,就怎么
也扔不掉了,所以对付他们,三条街的 value 是很重要的。
2. 但懂得 pot control, 知道自己的牌力该玩多大的 pot,大概是 cash game player
要提高必经的一步。一味只知道踩油门加速,直到被人 re-raise 了才知道踩刹车,
往往已经为时已晚。像我这种 nit 就很希望跟 aggressive 的一张桌子,我的 game
plan 就是不轻易跟牌,不 draw 牌(可以想象跟 LZ MM 这样的对手打,draw 牌一定
会很辛苦,每张牌的要付价钱几乎肯定过高),但一旦有大牌,我就 trap,一味示弱
,让对手自己钻进来,等到对手把自己 commit 了,再下锤子,打的很轻松。对付懂的
pot control 的对手,这一套就不怎么有效了。
3. Pot control 的确是 situational 的,但我觉得 Board texture 和 pot 中还剩多
少对手,及其水平的高低,是我决定 pot control 与否的关键。一般来说,拿到 one
pair hand, 不管是 tptk, 还是 overpair,对付 strong player, 不管他是 strong
tight 还是 strong loose, 都不够玩三条街的。Strong tight 的连 2 条街都不会跟
,他会想到他如果 call 你 turn,还有 river 要 call。所以他 either turn 上就会
fold, 如果他turn 上还 call 你,很能你那一对已经被 beat 了。对付这种 player
, 到不如 turn 上 check 一把,river 看情况 value bet 一下,被pay off 的机会
跟大一些。
4.Pot control 并不意味着就是要给 free card。free card 在扑克中是很要命的东西
,特别是在你领先的时候。我以前说过了,我倾向于宁愿在 turn 上 check 也不要在
flop 上 check。 Flop 上 bet 个 2/3 个 pot,就能赶走好大一批人,如果 turn 上
出了一个不折不扣 blank,如果 board 还是很 dry 的话,我就 check,这时候问题还
可能不大。如果 flop 的 board 本身很 wet,那 free card
就很要命,我倾向于 bet 1/2 的 pot,前提是我没有 pot commit,被人 raise 的话
仍然可以逃之夭夭。 turn 上的 1/2 pot size bet, 对于大多数 draw 来说,价钱都
不会对的,很多 draw 的人因此会 lose heart,而选择放弃,那些不要命的 fish 如
果 chase 的话,第一他们绝大多数时间 chase 不到,第二即使 chase 到,我也不一
定 pay off
5, 很重要的一点,什么是 marginal hand,定义是什么? 很多人说是 tptk, over pair 等,我的定义更广一些,因为我更 nit, 呵呵:包括 bottom two pairs, 特别是相关联的 board, 比如,你有 7,8, flop 是 7,8,9; 小 flush in mulitway pot; sucker end of straight; Straight with with flush on board, flush on a paired board. 这些都不能用整个 stack 拼命的,特别是 deep stack 的情况, 注意 pot control, 如果 action heavy, 得考虑弃牌。
5. 那如果你要问,如果被 good player outplay 了怎么办?就像 windstorm 说的,
如果被 good player 看透了我的把戏,他利用我的谨慎故意把 pot 搞大,就想我那天
说的 老黑那样,在 turn, 和 river 上给你 pressure, 让你进压力锅 fold 牌。
Well, 我的 argument 就是,我给 outplay 了又怎么样?如果一个对手好到在几个小
时之内就能把对手的 bet size,strategy 搞的很清楚,还有胆色玩 fancy 的,嘿嘿
,chance are you probably can't make money of him anyway.
要搞清楚玩 cash game 的目的是什么,是 outthink, outplay ppl 还是 赚钱?我的
目的是赚钱带消遣。在 good player 身上赚 100 快钱,跟在 fish 身上赚 100 快钱
,同样的美金,同样的价值,为什么我要费很多精神在 good player 身上?总会有更
好的机会,几乎不用思考,我能赚 200, 300, 500, 甚至 1000 快 一个 pot,而且我
确定自己 100% 领先,为什么要花那多余的力气要去 outthink 比自己更好的对手?是
不是值得? 何况这种机会本身并不会太多,像我们这种 tight 的人本身不会玩很多
pot,我宁愿舍弃几个 small, medium size pot, 把 stack 省到自己真正有 monster
的时候。Again,对付 strong player,即使你有 monster,他也不一定 payoff. 所以
你桌上如果满是 strong players, 那最好的 strategy 其实还是换桌子。像 rounder
里说的那样,if you can't find the sucker on the table within half hour's
play, then you ARE the sucker. try to find players sucker than you! LOL

would

【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: lol, i can see sth. coming.
: MD is building its biggest casino right now which is only < 30 mins from
: where i live. although it will only be slots for now, i have no doubt in 3
: years time, table games will be added, just like WV/DE/PA, only a fool would
: believe they borrowed millions of dollars just to host some stupid slot
: machines in a premium location.
: but until then, i guess i have other things to do, hehe.
:
: If
: for

p*******p
发帖数: 13670
33
good one, 最后一段很不错,不过也看大家目的,比如永远只想玩1/2,2/5的可能无所
谓,但是如果希望升上去,老找soft game玩很难提高吧?

bank

【在 T*********k 的大作中提到】
: 你们这些不知足的人啊。纽约市去所有的赌场都要 2 个半小时以上单程的距离,如果
: 有赌场 1 个小时左右就能到,真的笑也笑死了。
: 就是来回 5 个小时,无数赌巴都每天爆满,大批的大伯大妈们坚持每天往返,为的就
: 是赌场发的泥码可以换得 15-20 快的利润,一个月上班 30 天换取 600 元的生活费。
: 比比人家,你们真是生活在蜜糖里啊。
: 以扑克维生的话,理论上是做的到的,实际执行,最需要还是纪律性,很严格的 bank
: roll management。我自量现在还做不到,可能永远也做不到,所以只能在打牌为消遣
: 的层次。这个月打了 3 天 2/5,前两次利润 > 3k, 最后一次输了超过一半回去。靠扑
: 克维生我就只能顿顿吃酱菜了,实际上,每个月的盈利最多也就抵伙食费而已。
: 言归正传吧,谈谈我对 pot control 的在 small stake 的应用上的理解和经验:

T*********k
发帖数: 1621
34
在 NY 周围的,除了 foxwood 和 宝嘎达 (这地方我轻易不会去了),10/20 以上就很
少把?
本人胸无大志,只求在 1/2 , 2/5 上玩玩 fish, 赚点买菜钱。永远不会动到用 poker
养家糊口的念头,故本文开宗明义说明是 small stake 的经验。呵呵。

【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: good one, 最后一段很不错,不过也看大家目的,比如永远只想玩1/2,2/5的可能无所
: 谓,但是如果希望升上去,老找soft game玩很难提高吧?
:
: bank

p*******p
发帖数: 13670
35
恩,pick the right opponent是最重要的了,你这点是打small stake最有用的经验

poker

【在 T*********k 的大作中提到】
: 在 NY 周围的,除了 foxwood 和 宝嘎达 (这地方我轻易不会去了),10/20 以上就很
: 少把?
: 本人胸无大志,只求在 1/2 , 2/5 上玩玩 fish, 赚点买菜钱。永远不会动到用 poker
: 养家糊口的念头,故本文开宗明义说明是 small stake 的经验。呵呵。

c*****t
发帖数: 817
36
风暴说的在道理上肯定没错, pot control最怕遇到高手看破你的weakness然后overbet
。但是,象Durr那样有能力在河底,depolarize自己的range,拿着中等强度的牌超池
重注的人能有几个?
Small stake live game大部分玩家是loose passive。少数aggressive的玩家重注或者
RAISE的时候范围都极化得很厉害。真正有能力在你pot control的时候turn their
decent hand into bluff的人我还真没见过。所以我觉得在1/2、2/5局中基本不用担心
pot control这个leak。真是倒霉遇到高手了,不和他打就是了。
另外,我觉得打small stake live game不用太overthink自己可能的leak。事实上你可
以有很多比always pot control TPTK还糟糕的leak。但是真的去fix这些leak反而容易
减少利润。比如用78 suited来balance自己的UTG raise range。比如用A5来balance自
己的4-bet range。比如用TPTK来balance自己的check raise range。这些很可能都是
想太多了。
p****r
发帖数: 9164
37
yeah. you need decent bank roll to get started for live game and there will
be lot of up and downs. For online game, there are lots of game that
basically do not need bankroll.
There are some significent difference between online and live game.
Nowdays, most live game are NL cash game and the game is getting tougher.
but online you have a LOT more options. I started with FTP to play HUSNG with
50$ deposit and had almost 200$k total profit combined with winning from
Rush Poker and Rakeback. (if I get the the money from them :P).
I really do not think I worked hard enough to improve my game, there were
lots of things that I could do differently. I had thought I could burst into
high stakes cash game online( over 10-25 NL or PLO). but I did not.
These things is very hard to achieve from live game. So hard for me
to give up online.

chiu
1,
suck

【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: live,俺以前错误认为颇有一些人能make a living,后来发现不然,真得是2/5NL这个
: 级别以上,技术,纪律性都很强的人才可能做到。
: 以前AC一个女的,很凶也很油那种,至少在俺观察在1/2NL是长期赢家,现在在
: delaware park当dealer,很谦卑的样子,不知道是go broke了还是象当年david chiu
: 那样想通过发牌提高读人技术。不过,没挣着什么钱是肯定的。
: 象delaware park这样还算不小的场子,20几张cash,20张tourney,平时非周末也就1,
: 2张2/5NL的,估计打一个星期,就全混了脸熟,鲨鱼谁吃谁啊?
: online,起点低,internet kid $100, $200就可以通过大量玩练技术,输光了也没什
: 么,父母再要一次就好了。搞正了赢个中号的tourney几千块,以后就上路了。$200这
: 点钱,战战惊惊的,在live还没搞清东南西北,就让别人给wipe out了。上周末就suck

p****r
发帖数: 9164
38
河底是river? :) 我在BF之后,才开始熟悉这些中文的扑克称呼。 如果你发现有
人会overbet bluff when you pot control , 你可以在turn check nuts or strong
holding, 然后让他上钩。 Poker is always a mouse/cat game.
说道 depolarize range, 有一次poker after dark cash game, durrr有一次QQ
大的非常棒。
He raised QQ in position, picking 2 callers, including Eli Eliza.
Flop comes JJ4, two hearts(maybe diamond , not big deal anyway). Eli had
baby flush draw, checked, another caller checked, and Durrrr checked QQ in
position.The turn gave Eli an pair along his flush draw, so he bet out,
another callers fold, Durrr called. River is blank, Eli checked, Durrr bet 3
times the pot with QQ. Eli thougtt quite a while to call with his lower two
pairs since he put Durrr on a missed raw. A really nice bet based on hand
reading and own image. Good pot control by flop checking as well.

These big river bet is a huge part of your long term profit since the pot
get bigger at river.
Iagree not much pot control needed in low stake cap
buyin NL game. For NL w/o max buy in or 200BB bi+, pot control is a lot
more useful.





overbet

【在 c*****t 的大作中提到】
: 风暴说的在道理上肯定没错, pot control最怕遇到高手看破你的weakness然后overbet
: 。但是,象Durr那样有能力在河底,depolarize自己的range,拿着中等强度的牌超池
: 重注的人能有几个?
: Small stake live game大部分玩家是loose passive。少数aggressive的玩家重注或者
: RAISE的时候范围都极化得很厉害。真正有能力在你pot control的时候turn their
: decent hand into bluff的人我还真没见过。所以我觉得在1/2、2/5局中基本不用担心
: pot control这个leak。真是倒霉遇到高手了,不和他打就是了。
: 另外,我觉得打small stake live game不用太overthink自己可能的leak。事实上你可
: 以有很多比always pot control TPTK还糟糕的leak。但是真的去fix这些leak反而容易
: 减少利润。比如用78 suited来balance自己的UTG raise range。比如用A5来balance自

W********m
发帖数: 7793
39
你就是我15楼例子里的可以考虑pot controlled. 其实读你的牌比读鱼容易。如果bet
turn with top pair 给你call 乐, 估计可以考虑big bet river to turn top pair
into a bluff depends on how often you slow play nutty hands.. but of course
I wouldn't recomment this often ... lol..

很重要的一点,什么是 marginal hand,定义是什么? 很多人说是 tptk, over pair
等,我的定义更广一些,因为我更 nit, 呵呵:包括 bottom two pairs, 特别是相关
联的 board, 比如,你有 7,8, flop 是 7,8,9; 小 flush in mulitway pot;
sucker end of straight; Straight with with flush on board, flush on a paired
board. 这些都不能用整个 stack 拼命的,特别是 deep stack 的情况, 注意 pot
control, 如果 action heavy, 得考虑弃牌。

【在 T*********k 的大作中提到】
: 在 NY 周围的,除了 foxwood 和 宝嘎达 (这地方我轻易不会去了),10/20 以上就很
: 少把?
: 本人胸无大志,只求在 1/2 , 2/5 上玩玩 fish, 赚点买菜钱。永远不会动到用 poker
: 养家糊口的念头,故本文开宗明义说明是 small stake 的经验。呵呵。

f*****g
发帖数: 15860
40
do NOT worry, with current trend nationwide, NYC will get theirs soon. it's
a big juicy market.

bank

【在 T*********k 的大作中提到】
: 你们这些不知足的人啊。纽约市去所有的赌场都要 2 个半小时以上单程的距离,如果
: 有赌场 1 个小时左右就能到,真的笑也笑死了。
: 就是来回 5 个小时,无数赌巴都每天爆满,大批的大伯大妈们坚持每天往返,为的就
: 是赌场发的泥码可以换得 15-20 快的利润,一个月上班 30 天换取 600 元的生活费。
: 比比人家,你们真是生活在蜜糖里啊。
: 以扑克维生的话,理论上是做的到的,实际执行,最需要还是纪律性,很严格的 bank
: roll management。我自量现在还做不到,可能永远也做不到,所以只能在打牌为消遣
: 的层次。这个月打了 3 天 2/5,前两次利润 > 3k, 最后一次输了超过一半回去。靠扑
: 克维生我就只能顿顿吃酱菜了,实际上,每个月的盈利最多也就抵伙食费而已。
: 言归正传吧,谈谈我对 pot control 的在 small stake 的应用上的理解和经验:

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