T********n
发帖数: 528 | 1 昨天刚飞到纽约花了一整天睡得饱饱的。今天陪LP逛街，然后跟她大学同学们见见面。
听到的都是谁家生老二啦，谁回国当教授了之类。时光飞逝，LP和她朋友们来美也有差
不多10年了。听了这些回忆虽然是局外人可是也还是津津有味。
纽约对我们基本上已经没有太大吸引力了。这次来只是因为我俩下礼拜刚好都在东部出
差所以就一个mini getaway。
一点计划都没有除了去了我们比较喜欢的几个餐馆。吃的时候LP就问起有没有一些扑克
特别的回忆。我就说有！第一次live flop royal flush我一生难忘。
这其实是我第二次flop royal flush。不过第一次是online，当时玩的stakes比较低，
online也没有什么特别的感觉。这一次就大大不同啦。
2006年，WSOP Main Event前几天，我记得当时我早早就定了Day1A（早输早回工作）。
不像有些tourney donkey同类朋友们在ME前要不就是恶补tournament strategy，要不
就好好休息。我这个addict就不停的打牌。好像在大的buyin的tournament前我不把身
心都弄得快累垮不甘心似的。可是那年代的WSOPcash game实在是好到不忍心睡觉。不
过，要不是这样，这个回忆就不会有了。所以虽然那一年我好像第一天第三个小时就
bust out了，还是可以说"at least I have a story".
深夜，Bellagio 200-400 LHE，full game。已经同一批人玩了一阵子了。有两个东欧
玩家特别疯狂，VPIP大概70-80%，不停的raise/reraise preflop light。整个桌子都
陷入了挺wild的气氛。
UTG limp, 东欧#1 raise，MP1 CC2， MP2 3B， 东欧#2 4B， CO CC4， 我在Button有
KTs（hearts）也CC4。SB folds， BB calls， and everyone else calls. 8 way to
the flop.
Flop不可思议的是AQJ all hearts. I flopped a royal flush!!! In 200/400!!!
当时第一的想法就是再看一遍。心了再算了一遍。T J Q K A... 1 2 3 4 5个hearts..
.确实是Royal Flush!!!
在我还在想"how do I not screw this one up"发现action is on me... and it's
already capped!!! Bellagio是bet+4raise才cap。所以这代表在我前面的七个人已经
bet raise 3b 4b cap了！Flop royal flush, and have it capped to me - am I
dreaming???
据桌子的人后来说，我带着一个“wtf is going on"的样子call。
Turn was non heart blank. By the time it gets to me it's 4B. Not quite a
cap, but I was still drooling. 我当时想我要是cold cap，再stubborn的人也会
fold non set non big made hands。所以我就call 4，然后幸好还是有人cap。呵呵。
好像有一个人在turn上fold。说实话，已经没在想那么多了。只是在想"pair the
board！！"
可惜又是一个non heart blank (不过也还好不是heart）。这次到我的时候只是two
bets。我当然就3B了，chips丢进去的时候听到了不止一个"oh crap..." "oh no..."之
类，然后因为pot so big最后有四个人call了我。
敞开我的royal不说，一个人有KT for flopped straight,一个人有35 hearts for
flopped lower flush,一个人有JJ for set，另外一个人说他也有set，可是没有show
。一个fold的人说他有aces up。真是哇哇哇哇哇我真走运啊！
整个pot大概30k左右。当时是我玩过最大的pot。都不记得剩下那个晚上发生什么事了
。只记得回房间后朋友帮我照了那些现金放在一起的样子真是可爱。
唉，这个回忆真是甜密啊。我有另外一个回忆，是一个40/80 live session中ran into
Quads 7 times (6 of them against the same person).那个是一个很不好的回忆。
还有一个也是在200-400（so no bad beat jackpot)。我flop 2nd set， was up
against top set, he turn quads, I river 2nd quads.他是大鱼，可是～15 bets on
turn and river combined made me feel like I might have the loser, and I did
.唉～～
算了，还是只想好的回忆就好了。这样活得快乐一点。 | f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 2 holy hand! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~` nice!
【在 T********n 的大作中提到】
: 昨天刚飞到纽约花了一整天睡得饱饱的。今天陪LP逛街，然后跟她大学同学们见见面。
: 听到的都是谁家生老二啦，谁回国当教授了之类。时光飞逝，LP和她朋友们来美也有差
: 不多10年了。听了这些回忆虽然是局外人可是也还是津津有味。
: 纽约对我们基本上已经没有太大吸引力了。这次来只是因为我俩下礼拜刚好都在东部出
: 差所以就一个mini getaway。
: 一点计划都没有除了去了我们比较喜欢的几个餐馆。吃的时候LP就问起有没有一些扑克
: 特别的回忆。我就说有！第一次live flop royal flush我一生难忘。
: 这其实是我第二次flop royal flush。不过第一次是online，当时玩的stakes比较低，
: online也没有什么特别的感觉。这一次就大大不同啦。
: 2006年，WSOP Main Event前几天，我记得当时我早早就定了Day1A（早输早回工作）。
| c****1
发帖数: 457 | 3 前辈，你们那时候的game，是不是limit要比NL 流行
【在 T********n 的大作中提到】
: 昨天刚飞到纽约花了一整天睡得饱饱的。今天陪LP逛街，然后跟她大学同学们见见面。
: 听到的都是谁家生老二啦，谁回国当教授了之类。时光飞逝，LP和她朋友们来美也有差
: 不多10年了。听了这些回忆虽然是局外人可是也还是津津有味。
: 纽约对我们基本上已经没有太大吸引力了。这次来只是因为我俩下礼拜刚好都在东部出
: 差所以就一个mini getaway。
: 一点计划都没有除了去了我们比较喜欢的几个餐馆。吃的时候LP就问起有没有一些扑克
: 特别的回忆。我就说有！第一次live flop royal flush我一生难忘。
: 这其实是我第二次flop royal flush。不过第一次是online，当时玩的stakes比较低，
: online也没有什么特别的感觉。这一次就大大不同啦。
: 2006年，WSOP Main Event前几天，我记得当时我早早就定了Day1A（早输早回工作）。
| p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 4 truly amazing hand. I never got royal in live game so far. Got at least 5
online though.
just curious, do you remember how much you tip when you won a 30k pot?
:) | T********n
发帖数: 528 | 5 limit format整个来说在～2000年之前是比NL流行。70年代是draw/lowball最热门，80
年代是stud，90年代hold'em开始大众化，特别是tv coverage加上holecard viewing让
NLHE几乎一年内就追上LHE。我是在boom2-3年前开始玩的，当时Indian Reservation赌
场是5-6桌LHE，1桌Stud，1桌NLHE。3年后，NLHE跟LHE几乎反过来了。新的玩家来赌场
都是想要玩他们在电视上看到的扑克。从此LHE一蹶不振。
2010大概是LHE的lowpoint，不过最近LHE又开始revival了。不仅LHE，连stud format,
draw, 甚至pot-limit format，which was only popular in Europe,又渐渐的regain
market（table）share。
我个人认为5-10年后还是会渐渐恢复non-NLformat的因为NLformat还是太伤fish的和气
。而大部分人还是fish要玩什么就玩什么。fish也不笨。NLHE attracted an entire
generation of young poker players that not only want to win the money, but
show people they are the best. It's a turnoff for fishes.
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: 前辈，你们那时候的game，是不是limit要比NL 流行
| T********n
发帖数: 528 | 6 我记得我好像把一个100的chip给了dealer然后自己觉得给了太少了所以又从stack拿了
两个25的chip给了dealer。当时大部分pot都是～4-5k而一般人最多也是给2-3块所以
150算是多的了。假如同样的pot再发生我大概会给50.
赢一个jackpot我大概会给～10% aftertax当小费可是赢一个poker pot可是不太一样的
事。
?
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: truly amazing hand. I never got royal in live game so far. Got at least 5
: online though.
: just curious, do you remember how much you tip when you won a 30k pot?
: :)
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 7 真有钱~~~！！！！
【在 T********n 的大作中提到】
: 我记得我好像把一个100的chip给了dealer然后自己觉得给了太少了所以又从stack拿了
: 两个25的chip给了dealer。当时大部分pot都是～4-5k而一般人最多也是给2-3块所以
: 150算是多的了。假如同样的pot再发生我大概会给50.
: 赢一个jackpot我大概会给～10% aftertax当小费可是赢一个poker pot可是不太一样的
: 事。
:
: ?
| c****1
发帖数: 457 | 8 你的贴好像有全站置顶。为什么NL会伤FISH和和气呢? LH感觉有太多的draw可以chase
，想赶也赶不走
80
format,
regain
【在 T********n 的大作中提到】
: limit format整个来说在～2000年之前是比NL流行。70年代是draw/lowball最热门，80
: 年代是stud，90年代hold'em开始大众化，特别是tv coverage加上holecard viewing让
: NLHE几乎一年内就追上LHE。我是在boom2-3年前开始玩的，当时Indian Reservation赌
: 场是5-6桌LHE，1桌Stud，1桌NLHE。3年后，NLHE跟LHE几乎反过来了。新的玩家来赌场
: 都是想要玩他们在电视上看到的扑克。从此LHE一蹶不振。
: 2010大概是LHE的lowpoint，不过最近LHE又开始revival了。不仅LHE，连stud format,
: draw, 甚至pot-limit format，which was only popular in Europe,又渐渐的regain
: market（table）share。
: 我个人认为5-10年后还是会渐渐恢复non-NLformat的因为NLformat还是太伤fish的和气
: 。而大部分人还是fish要玩什么就玩什么。fish也不笨。NLHE attracted an entire
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 9 因为LHE可以轻松看到river吧，fish喜欢看牌，而且NL放大了错误，fish很容易一会儿
输光，可能它们本来计划是一晚上输600，爽一个晚上，结果nl一把就输光太快了
chase
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: 你的贴好像有全站置顶。为什么NL会伤FISH和和气呢? LH感觉有太多的draw可以chase
: ，想赶也赶不走
:
: 80
: format,
: regain
| p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 10 这个单 从Pot 的角度是有点多了。我在Bellagio 打过几次10-20NL,看到一个17k 的
pot, 给了 20$ 小费，但那个人好像跟dealer 很熟，一般20-30k 的Pot 小费也就 10-
20$. 当然在Balwin room 小费就更少了。
不过这个是royal flush special, 多一点也没什么，呵呵。
【在 T********n 的大作中提到】
: 我记得我好像把一个100的chip给了dealer然后自己觉得给了太少了所以又从stack拿了
: 两个25的chip给了dealer。当时大部分pot都是～4-5k而一般人最多也是给2-3块所以
: 150算是多的了。假如同样的pot再发生我大概会给50.
: 赢一个jackpot我大概会给～10% aftertax当小费可是赢一个poker pot可是不太一样的
: 事。
:
: ?
| | | g******s
发帖数: 211 | | T********n
发帖数: 528 | 12 Yeah pretty much this. Also cheap to see showdown too. Maybe low stakes NL
will always be more popular because of the thrill of 'all in' and playing
like how it's on TV, but in the medium/high stakes I would think if nothing
changes about poker then limit (or NL with a cap) formats will make a return
someday. The more likely event is poker continues to evolve though - no
one saw Hold'em coming during the Stud days, etc.
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: 因为LHE可以轻松看到river吧，fish喜欢看牌，而且NL放大了错误，fish很容易一会儿
: 输光，可能它们本来计划是一晚上输600，爽一个晚上，结果nl一把就输光太快了
:
: chase
| T********n
发帖数: 528 | 13 LHE definitely requires a different mindset because as you said there are
plenty of draws and you can't protect your hand with a large enough bet that
will severely punish someone from drawing with terrible odds.
So in that sense you accept a lot of people will make smaller mistakes than
in NL, and you really need iron will as you will run into much more
longshots getting there.
When my LP started learning how to play I actually advocated for her to
start with LHE even though there are much more NL tables, because I feel LHE
helps with learning post-flop fundamentals much more than NL. Pre-flop is
important, but many low stakes players lose focus on just playing a pristine
pre-flop game and make big post flop mistakes. Being good at LHE forces
you to identify smaller edges to push (because you need to push more
quantity of edges in order to increase win rate when you can't just take
someone's entire stack at once). Two different games, but both fun.
chase
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: 你的贴好像有全站置顶。为什么NL会伤FISH和和气呢? LH感觉有太多的draw可以chase
: ，想赶也赶不走
:
: 80
: format,
: regain
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 14 The next big thing after NLH is already here. It is PLO. I can think of
several reasons why good players enjoy PLO more than NLH. LMH is a thing to
the past. I really doubt it will come back and become more popular than NLH
again. But that is just my opinion. | p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 15 this is so true for cash game during WSOP. 3 years ago, NL pretty dominates
most cash game ,even in WSOP. last 2 year,it is completely different. there
is only 1-2 tables for NL cash game over 10-25NL , most games are PLO,
mixed game , stud, LH, Omaha HL, chinese poker etc.
but other than WSOP time, NL still dominates in most Vegas and LA cash
game, IMO.
80
format,
regain
【在 T********n 的大作中提到】
: limit format整个来说在～2000年之前是比NL流行。70年代是draw/lowball最热门，80
: 年代是stud，90年代hold'em开始大众化，特别是tv coverage加上holecard viewing让
: NLHE几乎一年内就追上LHE。我是在boom2-3年前开始玩的，当时Indian Reservation赌
: 场是5-6桌LHE，1桌Stud，1桌NLHE。3年后，NLHE跟LHE几乎反过来了。新的玩家来赌场
: 都是想要玩他们在电视上看到的扑克。从此LHE一蹶不振。
: 2010大概是LHE的lowpoint，不过最近LHE又开始revival了。不仅LHE，连stud format,
: draw, 甚至pot-limit format，which was only popular in Europe,又渐渐的regain
: market（table）share。
: 我个人认为5-10年后还是会渐渐恢复non-NLformat的因为NLformat还是太伤fish的和气
: 。而大部分人还是fish要玩什么就玩什么。fish也不笨。NLHE attracted an entire
| T********n
发帖数: 528 | 16 I played PLO extensively the last two years when I thought it would be the
next big thing. My local cardroom spreads it twice a week, but when the
most I see is 2-3 tables at the most popular PLO card rooms it's hard for me
to see that it's the next big thing. It's certainly the next big niche -
much more so online than live, but I don't see it overtaking hold'em of
either variety anytime soon.
If LHE starts dying out then I think, in a few years, it will become a
staple in mixed games. Right now it's not, because it's still fairly
popular as a whole so it feels overplayed.
Or maybe this is just my hopeless wish because I like LHE so much :)
to
NLH
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: The next big thing after NLH is already here. It is PLO. I can think of
: several reasons why good players enjoy PLO more than NLH. LMH is a thing to
: the past. I really doubt it will come back and become more popular than NLH
: again. But that is just my opinion.
| p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 17 so have you tried to play the HU LH slot machine in Bellagio? there was a
huge thread in 2p2 about that machine. It was designed by IGT and based on
AI/neural network etc. some ppl said a top notch LH player can beat that
machine. I played a few times , but won a little bit each time. The machine
seems super aggro,but seems follow certain pattern.
me
【在 T********n 的大作中提到】
: I played PLO extensively the last two years when I thought it would be the
: next big thing. My local cardroom spreads it twice a week, but when the
: most I see is 2-3 tables at the most popular PLO card rooms it's hard for me
: to see that it's the next big thing. It's certainly the next big niche -
: much more so online than live, but I don't see it overtaking hold'em of
: either variety anytime soon.
: If LHE starts dying out then I think, in a few years, it will become a
: staple in mixed games. Right now it's not, because it's still fairly
: popular as a whole so it feels overplayed.
: Or maybe this is just my hopeless wish because I like LHE so much :)
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 18 I don't think LHE will die down. But I think the better players in NLH will not go back to LHE to make a profit. I don't play much LHE or PLO, but my understanding of these 3 game are as such.
LHE->NLH-> PLO
The importance of your hole cards decrease in order. (less important does not mean not important. it only means that you can play a wider range.)
LHE is mainly playing your hole cards. You can rarely bluff anyone out of a pot and you can not protect your hand either. People call to see show down and rightfully so because they always have odds to call down once they are in a pot. So LHE is mostly about playing strong starting hand and let the mathematics work its way out over long run. I don't know how often you can bluff a non-fish players out of a big pot, i would think it would be a huge mistake in general to fold at river when the pot is big. Of course there is small edge with a big bet here and there, but the big picture is playing strong starting hand. You are the LHE expert. You can correct me if i am wrong.
NLE is quite different. The hole cards is the same, but you can bet
different sizes. That adds more power to speculative hand because of implied odds. You can also bluff and value bet more effective. This creates much more skill edge than LHE even though the dealt hole cards are the same. In a way, the more skill edge reduce the importance of the strength of the starting hole card. This is especially obvious when the stack is deep.
Now PLO is a completely different creature. The starting 4 hole card does not have any obvious strength over each other. even hands like AAxxss only has 6:4 edge vs run down like 8765ss. It is completely different from NL where you can hold AA and knowing you have 80% or better against any hands. The relative even hand strength between different starting hands make skill edge much more important in PLO than NLE. Of course this also creates much more variance. But overall, in PLO over long run, people with the skill edge are more likely to win out, because people with less skill can not improve
their edge as much as NL by playing tight starting hand.
So I think by the importance of hand strength
it goes from LHE->NLH->PLO.
while for the possible skill edge between players,
it goes PLO->NLH->LHE.
That's why I think the better players in NLH will not go back to LHE for a less edged game but will move to PLO to look for actions. I am mostly talking about the difference between good players and better players. In my opinion, fishes are fish everywhere. No matter what format they play, they will go broke in all 3 format. While at high level playing field, the better player will try to look for more skill edge oriented games.
me
【在 T********n 的大作中提到】
: I played PLO extensively the last two years when I thought it would be the
: next big thing. My local cardroom spreads it twice a week, but when the
: most I see is 2-3 tables at the most popular PLO card rooms it's hard for me
: to see that it's the next big thing. It's certainly the next big niche -
: much more so online than live, but I don't see it overtaking hold'em of
: either variety anytime soon.
: If LHE starts dying out then I think, in a few years, it will become a
: staple in mixed games. Right now it's not, because it's still fairly
: popular as a whole so it feels overplayed.
: Or maybe this is just my hopeless wish because I like LHE so much :)
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 19 i believe plo is only a hype. it will never get to the popular level or even
close to nlhm. it's only a game among a small group of players, fish or pro.
without online, it fades even faster.
it's all about a balance between difficulty of the game, luck and skill. plo
makes it unnecessarily complicated to the avg. players, who actually feed
the industry.
will
a
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: I don't think LHE will die down. But I think the better players in NLH will not go back to LHE to make a profit. I don't play much LHE or PLO, but my understanding of these 3 game are as such.
: LHE->NLH-> PLO
: The importance of your hole cards decrease in order. (less important does not mean not important. it only means that you can play a wider range.)
: LHE is mainly playing your hole cards. You can rarely bluff anyone out of a pot and you can not protect your hand either. People call to see show down and rightfully so because they always have odds to call down once they are in a pot. So LHE is mostly about playing strong starting hand and let the mathematics work its way out over long run. I don't know how often you can bluff a non-fish players out of a big pot, i would think it would be a huge mistake in general to fold at river when the pot is big. Of course there is small edge with a big bet here and there, but the big picture is playing strong starting hand. You are the LHE expert. You can correct me if i am wrong.
: NLE is quite different. The hole cards is the same, but you can bet
: different sizes. That adds more power to speculative hand because of implied odds. You can also bluff and value bet more effective. This creates much more skill edge than LHE even though the dealt hole cards are the same. In a way, the more skill edge reduce the importance of the strength of the starting hole card. This is especially obvious when the stack is deep.
: Now PLO is a completely different creature. The starting 4 hole card does not have any obvious strength over each other. even hands like AAxxss only has 6:4 edge vs run down like 8765ss. It is completely different from NL where you can hold AA and knowing you have 80% or better against any hands. The relative even hand strength between different starting hands make skill edge much more important in PLO than NLE. Of course this also creates much more variance. But overall, in PLO over long run, people with the skill edge are more likely to win out, because people with less skill can not improve
: their edge as much as NL by playing tight starting hand.
: So I think by the importance of hand strength
: it goes from LHE->NLH->PLO.
| T********n
发帖数: 528 | 20 Unfortunately, I did, quite a few times too. I tried it right when the
machines came out and at first I thought it was legit so I tried playing
against it 20/40. I have a great deal of HU LHE experience and am quite
confident in my HU game, and after about 3-4 hours and losing about 4-5k I
became sufficiently convinced something is not right.
There's more than enough youtube examples of the machine folding 2nd nuts to
nuts on harmless boards and ridiculous plays that only makes sense if it
knows your hole cards. I gave it the benefit of the doubt in the beginning
that it just played world class, and was still willing to challenge it. Not
touching it again.
Also for what it's worth I started out playing it $1/$2 and the AI seemed
weak or maybe I just ran really good. So I was thinking oh man this things
plays legit I'm going to kill it. You can say I got hustled by a machine. :
o
machine
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: so have you tried to play the HU LH slot machine in Bellagio? there was a
: huge thread in 2p2 about that machine. It was designed by IGT and based on
: AI/neural network etc. some ppl said a top notch LH player can beat that
: machine. I played a few times , but won a little bit each time. The machine
: seems super aggro,but seems follow certain pattern.
:
: me
| | | p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 21 关键tan老师的意思是，鱼会流向哪里，你再好的player，没鱼给你，你砸赚钱啊
will not go back to LHE to make a profit. I don't play much LHE or PLO, but
my understanding of these 3 game are as such.
not mean not important. it only means that you can play a wider range.)
a pot and you can not protect your hand either. People call to see show down
and rightfully so because they always have odds to call down once they are
in a pot. So LHE is most
implied odds. You can also bluff and value bet more effective. This creates
much more skill edge than LHE even though the dealt hole cards are the same.
In a way, the more skill edg
not have any obvious strength over each other. even hands like AAxxss only
has 6:4 edge vs run down like 8765ss. It is completely different from NL
where you can hold AA and kn
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: I don't think LHE will die down. But I think the better players in NLH will not go back to LHE to make a profit. I don't play much LHE or PLO, but my understanding of these 3 game are as such.
: LHE->NLH-> PLO
: The importance of your hole cards decrease in order. (less important does not mean not important. it only means that you can play a wider range.)
: LHE is mainly playing your hole cards. You can rarely bluff anyone out of a pot and you can not protect your hand either. People call to see show down and rightfully so because they always have odds to call down once they are in a pot. So LHE is mostly about playing strong starting hand and let the mathematics work its way out over long run. I don't know how often you can bluff a non-fish players out of a big pot, i would think it would be a huge mistake in general to fold at river when the pot is big. Of course there is small edge with a big bet here and there, but the big picture is playing strong starting hand. You are the LHE expert. You can correct me if i am wrong.
: NLE is quite different. The hole cards is the same, but you can bet
: different sizes. That adds more power to speculative hand because of implied odds. You can also bluff and value bet more effective. This creates much more skill edge than LHE even though the dealt hole cards are the same. In a way, the more skill edge reduce the importance of the strength of the starting hole card. This is especially obvious when the stack is deep.
: Now PLO is a completely different creature. The starting 4 hole card does not have any obvious strength over each other. even hands like AAxxss only has 6:4 edge vs run down like 8765ss. It is completely different from NL where you can hold AA and knowing you have 80% or better against any hands. The relative even hand strength between different starting hands make skill edge much more important in PLO than NLE. Of course this also creates much more variance. But overall, in PLO over long run, people with the skill edge are more likely to win out, because people with less skill can not improve
: their edge as much as NL by playing tight starting hand.
: So I think by the importance of hand strength
: it goes from LHE->NLH->PLO.
| p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 22 "Fixed limit is more strategic than no-limit," rUaBot told PokerStars' Brad
Willis before the match. "There is much more space for general strategic
adaptations than in no-limit," he added.
In addition to challenging Negreanu, rUaBot challenged traditional ideas
about LHE, too, when talking to Willis, such as the idea voiced by Poker
Hall of Famer Crandall Addington long ago that "limit poker is a science,
but no-limit is an art."
"Setting up your standard game is pure math," conceded rUaBot. "But
exploiting your opponent's patterns is an art... and always will be!"
This how a LH genius who just beat DN in PS superstar showdown think
about LH. I did hear that a lot of concept in LH is even harder than NLH.
me
【在 T********n 的大作中提到】
: I played PLO extensively the last two years when I thought it would be the
: next big thing. My local cardroom spreads it twice a week, but when the
: most I see is 2-3 tables at the most popular PLO card rooms it's hard for me
: to see that it's the next big thing. It's certainly the next big niche -
: much more so online than live, but I don't see it overtaking hold'em of
: either variety anytime soon.
: If LHE starts dying out then I think, in a few years, it will become a
: staple in mixed games. Right now it's not, because it's still fairly
: popular as a whole so it feels overplayed.
: Or maybe this is just my hopeless wish because I like LHE so much :)
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 23 恩。 抓鱼打十么都一样的。没鱼了就只能抓weaker reg.
but
down
are
creates
same.
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: 关键tan老师的意思是，鱼会流向哪里，你再好的player，没鱼给你，你砸赚钱啊
:
: will not go back to LHE to make a profit. I don't play much LHE or PLO, but
: my understanding of these 3 game are as such.
: not mean not important. it only means that you can play a wider range.)
: a pot and you can not protect your hand either. People call to see show down
: and rightfully so because they always have odds to call down once they are
: in a pot. So LHE is most
: implied odds. You can also bluff and value bet more effective. This creates
: much more skill edge than LHE even though the dealt hole cards are the same.
| T********n
发帖数: 528 | 24 Another story about the HU machine - during last year's WSOP one early
Saturday AM I stayed at Aria and snuck downstairs while LP was sleeping.
Only mixed game with an opening was a 80-160 and I jumped in. Game was good
but soon it was something like 7 or 8 am and the weaker players went to bed
. A couple of the players were waiting for bigger mix and didn't want to
sleep, but the players that broke the game all knew each other well and didn
't want to slug it out this late at night / early in the morning. So one
guy proposed hey let's go take on that HU machine as a team. I mean, we had
a team of LHE all-stars there. You can put most famous pros in the lineup
and they would be the underdog.
After about 40 minutes of playing the HU machine 20-40 we gave up. We didn'
t lose a lot, but we were convinced that this is no different than playing
slots and lighting money on fire - and we like money so it's time to stop
giving the machine action.
So yeah - stay away from that machine. At least don't play it for serious $.
machine
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: so have you tried to play the HU LH slot machine in Bellagio? there was a
: huge thread in 2p2 about that machine. It was designed by IGT and based on
: AI/neural network etc. some ppl said a top notch LH player can beat that
: machine. I played a few times , but won a little bit each time. The machine
: seems super aggro,but seems follow certain pattern.
:
: me
| D*A
发帖数: 1169 | 25 The FL is harder ... to win. Actually for low stakes FL in casino, like 2/4,
3/6,4/8, ever player is losing in long run.
When it goes above 10/20, someone get chances to win some money.
The biggest problem for FL live, is patience.
Playing tight pre-flop is only math-correct way to win.
If you are tighter then your oppoents, you got a edge over them.
The max EV is only play AA in a infinite time frame.
Is there anyone could be discplined to play only one hand per hour on live
table? Not me.
Brad
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: "Fixed limit is more strategic than no-limit," rUaBot told PokerStars' Brad
: Willis before the match. "There is much more space for general strategic
: adaptations than in no-limit," he added.
: In addition to challenging Negreanu, rUaBot challenged traditional ideas
: about LHE, too, when talking to Willis, such as the idea voiced by Poker
: Hall of Famer Crandall Addington long ago that "limit poker is a science,
: but no-limit is an art."
: "Setting up your standard game is pure math," conceded rUaBot. "But
: exploiting your opponent's patterns is an art... and always will be!"
: This how a LH genius who just beat DN in PS superstar showdown think
| T********n
发帖数: 528 | 26 Yeah I agree with this. Most of my friends believe LHE is deeper
strategically than NL at the higher levels. Because of the fixed-bet format
a lot of setups is more delicate and requires adaptation to game flow /
dynamic elements. You're also forced to make plays more at the big-bet
streets, and LHE has more multi-street aggression change. As long as you
are in a high enough stakes or serious enough game, these elements will be
the key difference between winning or losing.
Also a lot of people think there's less bluffing in LHE. But that's not
true. There is a ton of bluffing in LHE. The cost of trying to bluff
versus the size of the pot is usually so rewarding that you must bluff if
you want to win more as long as you are not in a 'no fold'em hold'em' game.
It's just that when you can only bluff one bet at a time, very rare will
good LHE players suddenly decide to bluff the river for one bet unless the
line they took makes sense to hit the river. Usually the setup against
another thinking player is something like "Because I raised MP and called SB
's 3b and he knows in position I will usually 4b premiums and pure trash he'
s got me between 9%+ and top 25% and he's pretty loose so I got him all the
way at top 28% + suited connectors, if flop comes K42 he bet if I raise I'm
making him think I'm the range of hands with Kx (which is a small set of my
possible holdings) and more likely a PP, this will create the set of AQJT9
as range of cards in his favor to semi-bluff/value-bet, but if I just call,
those become my set of bluff-able cards, and depending on action if one of
those cards come especially if a draw completes runner runner I'm going to
have to bluff at it with a river raise if he's capable of a laydown" etc.
Not that this doesn't happen in NL or any kind of poker, but this happens
much more frequently in LHE because you see more flops, turns, and rivers.
Another key difference is in re-bluffs. Re-bluffs are important because it
re-seizes the initiative and 'buys/represents' a range, and often in NLHE a
2nd or even 3rd rebluff can not itself be rebluffed because you're either
all-in or effectively committed. That doesn't happen in LHE, and you can
get in a tangle on one street and now you may only have 30% chance of having
ranges A+B+C and 70% chance of having ranges A+B because of combined
preflop+flop action but a card that hits C shows up on the turn and you can
decide if your opponent is the type that will give you credit for Range C if
you b-3b the turn or if he's going to stick with the math/his read, etc.
etc. That's only the tip of the iceberg.
The other thing is everyone eventually understands that win rates by just
playing big hands (18/12) is very small in LHE. Most of the profit of 18/12
comes from still getting action on premiums, and once you're pegged as
traditional TAG only fishes will give you action without a strong holding.
This is why 18/12 is going in extinction and you're forced to enter with
hands that have smaller EV in order to maximize win rate. That's playing
with fire, and you get in a whole lot more tricky situations post flop.
Playing post flop well really can't be understated in importance for LHE.
Each mistake may cost less but when they happen so much more frequently it's
where the extra profits come in.
Again, this is only true though if you are in either a high enough stakes
game or serious/tough enough game. In most 40/80 and below tables as long
as there are 2+ weak spots then just playing a strong line game (pre and
post flop, and this doesn't mean just reading HEFAP, poker is a lot deeper
than what's revealed in the books), having good discipline, and being a good
hand reader will roll in decent profits. But if you want to crush the game
, some of the concepts described above are just ways to approach/think about
LHE that are keys to success.
Brad
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: "Fixed limit is more strategic than no-limit," rUaBot told PokerStars' Brad
: Willis before the match. "There is much more space for general strategic
: adaptations than in no-limit," he added.
: In addition to challenging Negreanu, rUaBot challenged traditional ideas
: about LHE, too, when talking to Willis, such as the idea voiced by Poker
: Hall of Famer Crandall Addington long ago that "limit poker is a science,
: but no-limit is an art."
: "Setting up your standard game is pure math," conceded rUaBot. "But
: exploiting your opponent's patterns is an art... and always will be!"
: This how a LH genius who just beat DN in PS superstar showdown think
| T********n
发帖数: 528 | 27 Very low stakes LHE is not beatable because the rake is too high relative to
the realistically achievable win rates in that game. 8/16 becomes the
first limit that you see some people supplement income with a small win.
Some pros believe that 20/40 + prop wages is the first tier where you have
people that can sustain a decent standard of living by playing just LHE. Of
course, it's possible there are people that can make a nice enough living
by playing just 20/40 without prop wages, but those people are capable of
making more playing higher stakes and that's what they will do.
On the other hand, playing tight pre-flop is not the only math-correct way
to win. Post flop is important too.
Playing only AA is not the highest bb/100 even if dealing out infinite
iterations because of blinds. You can look at it that there is a cost to be
dealt a hand. Every 9 hands cost you 1.5 bb so without accounting for
position, each hand cost you 1/6 of a bb. Any hand that has expectation
above .16bb therefore adds to your win rate. We can easily agree that KK
has a win rate above .16bb. Therefore, playing just KK and AA is a strictly
superior EV strategy to playing just AA since in theory in the long run for
each AA you will have a KK.
Assuming your table is oblivious to your strategy, you can in fact play only
the top 9% of hands in poker and turn a decent enough profit to justify
your time. The problem is you're not playing against monkeys and when you
are super nitty tight people adjust accordingly.
The closest game circumstances to make playing just AA correct would be is
if it is always max bets to see the flop hand after hand after hand. In
those circumstances such a great mistake is being made by others preflop,
that in LHE it justifies all their further action in the hand. This is
comparable to a rack attack or anything that sweetens the pot. But even in
those cases, playing AA + KK + QQ + JJ + AK is the optimal strategy when
balancing win rate and variance. Not saying other hands in these
circumstances aren't +EV, but they are so marginal and forces you to chase
runner runners just like a fish would because of the size of the pot, that
you're trading a tiny bit of win rate with magnifying your variance by
multiple orders.
But those games don't realistically exist/persist.
4,
【在 D*A 的大作中提到】
: The FL is harder ... to win. Actually for low stakes FL in casino, like 2/4,
: 3/6,4/8, ever player is losing in long run.
: When it goes above 10/20, someone get chances to win some money.
: The biggest problem for FL live, is patience.
: Playing tight pre-flop is only math-correct way to win.
: If you are tighter then your oppoents, you got a edge over them.
: The max EV is only play AA in a infinite time frame.
: Is there anyone could be discplined to play only one hand per hour on live
: table? Not me.
:
| T********n
发帖数: 528 | 28 If you consistently try to bluff catch in LHE because there are so many
showdowns it will be a huge leak in your game. In the mid 2000s most
winning players had 45% go-to-showdown, and by late 2000 it was trending to
55% go-to-showdown, but still not anywhere to the point that bluffing
becomes unprofitable.
I think we need to qualify what you wrote below with 'if you play straight-
forward'.
PLO is an equity game - much different than hold'em of either variety. Like
you said the hand equities pre-flop is nowhere near as extreme as in hold'
em. However, a common misconception with PLO is that a lot of the money
comes from free-rolling someone. I mean, that's certainly part of it, but
you are giving up way too much if you only jam the money in when you've got
the PLO equivalent of a lock on the board.
And Patrick already pointed out what I was trying to say : )
will not go back to LHE to make a profit. I don't play much LHE or PLO, but
my understanding of these 3 game are as such.
not mean not important. it only means that you can play a wider range.)
a pot and you can not protect your hand either. People call to see show down
and rightfully so because they always have odds to call down once they are
in a pot. So LHE is mostly about playing strong starting hand and let the
mathematics work its way out over long run. I don't know how often you can
bluff a non-fish players out of a big pot, i would think it would be a huge
mistake in general to fold at river when the pot: is big. Of course there
is small edge with a big bet here and there, but the big picture is playing
strong starting hand. You are the LHE expert. You can correct me if i am
wrong.
implied odds. You can also bluff and value bet more effective. This creates
much more skill edge than LHE even though the dealt hole cards are the same.
In a way, the more skill edge reduce the importance of the strength of the
starting hole card. This is especially obvious when the stack is deep.
not have any obvious strength over each other. even hands like AAxxss only
has 6:4 edge vs run down like 8765ss. It is completely different from NL
where you can hold AA and knowing you have 80% or better against any hands.
The relative even hand strength between different starting hands make skill
edge much more important in PLO than NLE. Of course this also creates much
more variance. But overall, in PLO over long run, : people with the skill
edge are more likely to win out, because people with less skill can not
improve
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: I don't think LHE will die down. But I think the better players in NLH will not go back to LHE to make a profit. I don't play much LHE or PLO, but my understanding of these 3 game are as such.
: LHE->NLH-> PLO
: The importance of your hole cards decrease in order. (less important does not mean not important. it only means that you can play a wider range.)
: LHE is mainly playing your hole cards. You can rarely bluff anyone out of a pot and you can not protect your hand either. People call to see show down and rightfully so because they always have odds to call down once they are in a pot. So LHE is mostly about playing strong starting hand and let the mathematics work its way out over long run. I don't know how often you can bluff a non-fish players out of a big pot, i would think it would be a huge mistake in general to fold at river when the pot is big. Of course there is small edge with a big bet here and there, but the big picture is playing strong starting hand. You are the LHE expert. You can correct me if i am wrong.
: NLE is quite different. The hole cards is the same, but you can bet
: different sizes. That adds more power to speculative hand because of implied odds. You can also bluff and value bet more effective. This creates much more skill edge than LHE even though the dealt hole cards are the same. In a way, the more skill edge reduce the importance of the strength of the starting hole card. This is especially obvious when the stack is deep.
: Now PLO is a completely different creature. The starting 4 hole card does not have any obvious strength over each other. even hands like AAxxss only has 6:4 edge vs run down like 8765ss. It is completely different from NL where you can hold AA and knowing you have 80% or better against any hands. The relative even hand strength between different starting hands make skill edge much more important in PLO than NLE. Of course this also creates much more variance. But overall, in PLO over long run, people with the skill edge are more likely to win out, because people with less skill can not improve
: their edge as much as NL by playing tight starting hand.
: So I think by the importance of hand strength
: it goes from LHE->NLH->PLO.
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 29 There is a clear distinction between having less skill edge and having no
skill edge. There is also a clear distinction between "your hole card plays
a more important role" and "it is all about your hole card".
Unable to see the first part of both claims proven wrong yet, which I was really trying to say. The second part of both claim are clearly wrong which is rightfully proven wrong by the excellent write up by teacher Tan.
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 30 a lot of the things can be said about bluff and bluff catch. But there is
not much in LHE that is out of scope of NLH. It is simply an ev calculation
among the 3 important elements--
1) your equity in the pot based on your hand and your read for opponents
range,
2) size of the bet
3) the bluff frequency from your opponents.
Input these 3 variables, and you can get your most optimal move about bluff and bluff catch.
When it gets to high level, the bluff frequency of good players can be
constantly changing with the game flow for both LHE and NLH, so as your
equity in the pot when players change gear. There is one thing that is
easier for LHE, the size of the bet at late street is usually relatively
small compared to the pot. And it is always FIXED and you normally only need
very small equity to call to break even in ev. it makes the decision of
bluff catch much easier in LHE than NLH. (EASIER, not EASY, just like having
less edge, not having no edge. I thought I made that clear)
to
Like
【在 T********n 的大作中提到】
: If you consistently try to bluff catch in LHE because there are so many
: showdowns it will be a huge leak in your game. In the mid 2000s most
: winning players had 45% go-to-showdown, and by late 2000 it was trending to
: 55% go-to-showdown, but still not anywhere to the point that bluffing
: becomes unprofitable.
: I think we need to qualify what you wrote below with 'if you play straight-
: forward'.
: PLO is an equity game - much different than hold'em of either variety. Like
: you said the hand equities pre-flop is nowhere near as extreme as in hold'
: em. However, a common misconception with PLO is that a lot of the money
| | | T********n
发帖数: 528 | 31 Yeah at the end of the day Holdem is Holdem so I was wrong to say one is
strategically deeper than the other. The scope of the game is still the same
. And I thought about it last night a lot of what I say applies to advanced
LHE probably applies to advanced NLHE too. I just don't play NLHE at a high
level. :) | I**n
发帖数: 839 | 32 Second that. High variance kills the game too easily.
even
pro.
plo
【在 f*****g 的大作中提到】
: i believe plo is only a hype. it will never get to the popular level or even
: close to nlhm. it's only a game among a small group of players, fish or pro.
: without online, it fades even faster.
: it's all about a balance between difficulty of the game, luck and skill. plo
: makes it unnecessarily complicated to the avg. players, who actually feed
: the industry.
:
: will
: a
|
|
