C*******r
发帖数: 10345 | 1 这是数学家，逻辑学家Smullyan对free will问题的一次尝试。Smullyan本人认为他自
己是道家哲学者。
Mortal:
And therefore, O God, I pray thee, if thou hast one ounce of mercy for
this thy suffering creature, absolve me of having to have free will!
God:
You reject the greatest gift I have given thee?
Mortal:
How can you call that which was forced on me a gift? I have free will,
but not of my own choice. I have never freely chosen to have free will. I
have to have free will, whether I like it or not!
God:
Why would you wish not to have free will?
Mortal:
Because free will means moral responsibility, and moral responsibility is
more than I can bear!
God:
Why do you find moral responsibility so unbearable?
Mortal:
Why? I honestly can't analyze why; all I know is that I do.
God:
All right, in that case suppose I absolve you from all moral
responsibility but leave you still with free will. Will this be satisfactory?
Mortal (after a pause):
No, I am afraid not.
God:
Ah, just as I thought! So moral responsibility is not the only aspect of
free will to which you object. What else about free will is bothering you?
Mortal:
With free will I am capable of sinning, and I don't want to sin!
God:
If you don't want to sin, then why do you?
Mortal:
Good God! I don't know why I sin, I just do! Evil temptations come along,
and try as I can, I cannot resist them.
God:
If it is really true that you cannot resist them, then you are not
sinning of your own free will and hence (at least according to me) not
sinning at all.
Mortal:
No, no! I keep feeling that if only I tried harder I could avoid sinning.
I understand that the will is infinite. If one wholeheartedly wills not to
sin, then one won't.
God:
Well now, you should know. Do you try as hard as you can to avoid sinning
or don't you?
Mortal:
I honestly don't know! At the time, I feel I am trying as hard as I can,
but in retrospect, I am worried that maybe I didn't!
God:
So in other words, you don't really know whether or not you have been
sinning. So the possibility is open that you haven't been sinning at all!
Mortal:
Of course this possibility is open, but maybe I have been sinning, and
this thought is what so frightens me!
God:
Why does the thought of your sinning frighten you?
Mortal:
I don't know why! For one thing, you do have a reputation for meting out
rather gruesome punishments in the afterlife!
God:
Oh, that's what's bothering you! Why didn't you say so in the first place
instead of all this peripheral talk about free will and responsibility? Why
didn't you simply request me not to punish you for any of your sins?
Mortal:
I think I am realistic enough to know that you would hardly grant such a
request!
God:
You don't say! You have a realistic knowledge of what requests I will
grant, eh? Well, I'll tell you what I'm going to do! I will grant you a very
, very special dispensation to sin as much as you like, and I give you my
divine word of honor that I will never punish you for it in the least.
Agreed?
Mortal (in great terror):
No, no, don't do that!
God:
Why not? Don't you trust my divine word?
Mortal:
Of course I do! But don't you see, I don't want to sin! I have an utter
abhorrence of sinning, quite apart from any punishments it may entail.
God:
In that case, I'll go you one better. I'll remove your abhorrence of
sinning. Here is a magic pill! Just swallow it, and you will lose all
abhorrence of sinning. You will joyfully and merrily sin away, you will have
no regrets, no abhorrence and I still promise you will never be punished by
me, or yourself, or by any source whatever. You will be blissful for all
eternity. So here is the pill!
Mortal:
No, no!
God:
Are you not being irrational? I am even removing your abhorrence of sin,
which is your last obstacle.
Mortal:
I still won't take it!
God:
Why not?
Mortal:
I believe that the pill will indeed remove my future abhorrence for sin,
but my present abhorrence is enough to prevent me from being willing to take
it.
God:
I command you to take it!
Mortal:
I refuse!
God:
What, you refuse of your own free will?
Mortal:
Yes!
God:
So it seems that your free will comes in pretty handy, doesn't it?
Mortal:
I don't understand!
God:
Are you not glad now that you have the free will to refuse such a ghastly
offer? How would you like it if I forced you to take this pill, whether you
wanted it or not?
Mortal:
No, no! Please don't!
God:
Of course I won't; I'm just trying to illustrate a point. All right, let
me put it this way. Instead of forcing you to take the pill, suppose I grant
your original prayer of removing your free will -- but with the
understanding that the moment you are no longer free, then you will take the
pill.
Mortal:
Once my will is gone, how could I possibly choose to take the pill?
God:
I did not say you would choose it; I merely said you would take it. You
would act, let us say, according to purely deterministic laws which are such
that you would as a matter of fact take it.
Mortal:
I still refuse.
God:
So you refuse my offer to remove your free will. This is rather different
from your original prayer, isn't it?
Mortal:
Now I see what you are up to. Your argument is ingenious, but I'm not
sure it is really correct. There are some points we will have to go over
again.
God:
Certainly.
Mortal:
There are two things you said which seem contradictory to me. First you
said that one cannot sin unless one does so of one's own free will. But then
you said you would give me a pill which would deprive me of my own free
will, and then I could sin as much as I liked. But if I no longer had free
will, then, according to your first statement, how could I be capable of
sinning?
God:
You are confusing two separate parts of our conversation. I never said
the pill would deprive you of your free will, but only that it would remove
your abhorrence of sinning.
Mortal:
I'm afraid I'm a bit confused.
God:
All right, then let us make a fresh start. Suppose I agree to remove your
free will, but with the understanding that you will then commit an enormous
number of acts which you now regard as sinful. Technically speaking, you
will not then be sinning since you will not be doing these acts of your own
free will. And these acts will carry no moral responsibility, nor moral
culpability, nor any punishment whatsoever. Nevertheless, these acts will
all be of the type which you presently regard as sinful; they will all have
this quality which you presently feel as abhorrent, but your abhorrence will
disappear; so you will not then feel abhorrence toward the acts.
Mortal:
No, but I have present abhorrence toward the acts, and this present
abhorrence is sufficient to prevent me from accepting your proposal.
God:
Hm! So let me get this absolutely straight. I take it you no longer wish
me to remove your free will.
Mortal (reluctantly):
No, I guess not.
God:
All right, I agree not to. But I am still not exactly clear as to why you
now no longer wish to be rid of your free will. Please tell me again.
Mortal:
Because, as you have told me, without free will I would sin even more
than I do now.
God:
But I have already told you that without free will you cannot sin.
Mortal:
But if I choose now to be rid of free will, then all my subsequent evil
actions will be sins, not of the future, but of the present moment in which
I choose not to have free will.
God:
Sounds like you are pretty badly trapped, doesn't it?
Mortal:
Of course I am trapped! You have placed me in a hideous double bind! Now
whatever I do is wrong. If I retain free will, I will continue to sin, and
if I abandon free will (with your help, of course) I will now be sinning in
so doing.
God:
But by the same token, you place me in a double bind. I am willing to
leave you free will or remove it as you choose, but neither alternative
satisfies you. I wish to help you, but it seems I cannot.
Mortal:
True!
God:
But since it is not my fault, why are you still angry with me?
Mortal:
For having placed me in such a horrible predicament in first place!
God:
But, according to you, there is nothing satisfactory I could have done.
Mortal:
You mean there is nothing satisfactory you can now do, that does not mean
that there is nothing you could have done.
God:
Why? What could I have done?
Mortal:
Obviously you should never have given me free will in the first place.
Now that you have given it to me, it is too late -- anything I do will be
bad. But you should never have given it to me in the first place.
God:
Oh, that's it! Why would it have been better had I never given it to you?
Mortal:
Because then I never would have been capable of sinning at all.
God:
Well, I'm always glad to learn from my mistakes.
Mortal:
What!
God:
I know, that sounds sort of self-blasphemous, doesn't it? It almost
involves a logical paradox! On the one hand, as you have been taught, it is
morally wrong for any sentient being to claim that I am capable of making
mistakes. On the other hand, I have the right to do anything. But I am also
a sentient being. So the question is, Do, I or do I not have the right to
claim that I am capable of making mistakes?
Mortal:
That is a bad joke! One of your premises is simply false. I have not been
taught that it is wrong for any sentient being to doubt your omniscience,
but only for a mortal to doubt it. But since you are not mortal, then you
are obviously free from this injunction.
God:
Good, so you realize this on a rational level. Nevertheless, you did
appear shocked when I said, "I am always glad to learn from my mistakes."
Mortal:
Of course I was shocked. I was shocked not by your self-blasphemy (as you
jokingly called it), not by the fact that you had no right to say it, but
just by the fact that you did say it, since I have been taught that as a
matter of fact you don't make mistakes. So I was amazed that you claimed
that it is possible for you to make mistakes.
God:
I have not claimed that it is possible. All I am saying is that if I make
mistakes, I will be happy to learn from them. But this says nothing about
whether the if has or ever can be realized.
Mortal:
Let's please stop quibbling about this point. Do you or do you not admit
it was a mistake to have given me free will?
God:
Well now, this is precisely what I propose we should investigate. Let me
review your present predicament. You don't want to have free will because
with free will you can sin, and you don't want to sin. (Though I still find
this puzzling; in a way you must want to sin, or else you wouldn't. But let
this pass for now.) On the other hand, if you agreed to give up free will,
then you would now be responsible for the acts of the future. Ergo, I should
never have given you free will in the first place.
Mortal:
Exactly!
God:
I understand exactly how you feel. Many mortals -- even some theologians
-- have complained that I have been unfair in that it was I, not they, who
decided that they should have free will, and then I hold them responsible
for their actions. In other words, they feel that they are expected to live
up to a contract with me which they never agreed to in the first place.
Mortal:
Exactly!
God:
As I said, I understand the feeling perfectly. And I can appreciate the
justice of the complaint. But the complaint arises only from an unrealistic
understanding of the true issues involved. I am about to enlighten you as to
what these are, and I think the results will surprise you! But instead of
telling you outright, I shall continue to use the Socratic method.
To repeat, you regret that I ever gave you free will. I claim that when you
see the true ramifications you will no longer have this regret. To prove my
point, I'll tell you what I'm going to do. I am about to create a new
universe -- a new space-time continuum. In this new universe will be born a
mortal just like you -- for all practical purposes, we might say that you
will be reborn. Now, I can give this new mortal -- this new you -- free will
or not. What would you like me to do?
Mortal (in great relief):
Oh, please! Spare him from having to have free will!
God:
All right, I'll do as you say. But you do realize that this new you
without free will, will commit all sorts of horrible acts.
Mortal:
But they will not be sins since he will have no free will.
God:
Whether you call them sins or not, the fact remains that they will be
horrible acts in the sense that they will cause great pain to many sentient
beings.
Mortal (after a pause):
Good God, you have trapped me again! Always the same game! If I now give
you the go-ahead to create this new creature with no free will who will
nevertheless commit atrocious acts, then true enough he will not be sinning,
but I again will be the sinner to sanction this.
God:
In that case, I'll go you one better! Here, I have already decided
whether to create this new you with free will or not. Now, I am writing my
decision on this piece of paper and I won't show it to you until later. But
my decision is now made and is absolutely irrevocable. There is nothing you
can possibly do to alter it; you have no responsibility in the matter. Now,
what I wish to know is this: Which way do you hope I have decided? Remember
now, the responsibility for the decision falls entirely on my shoulders, not
yours. So you can tell me perfectly honestly and without any fear, which
way do you hope I have decided?
Mortal (after a very long pause):
I hope you have decided to give him free will.
God:
Most interesting! I have removed your last obstacle! If I do not give him
free will, then no sin is to be imputed to anybody. So why do you hope I
will give him free will?
Mortal:
Because sin or no sin, the important point is that if you do not give him
free will, then (at least according to what you have said) he will go
around hurting people, and I don't want to see people hurt.
GOD (with an infinite sigh of relief):
At last! At last you see the real point!
Mortal:
What point is that?
God:
That sinning is not the real issue! The important thing is that people as
well as other sentient beings don't get hurt!
Mortal:
You sound like a utilitarian!
God:
I am a utilitarian!
Mortal:
What!
God:
Whats or no whats, I am a utilitarian. Not a unitarian, mind you, but a
utilitarian.
Mortal:
I just can't believe it!
God:
Yes, I know, your religious training has taught you otherwise. You have
probably thought of me more like a Kantian than a utilitarian, but your
training was simply wrong.
Mortal:
You leave me speechless!
God:
I leave you speechless, do I! Well, that is perhaps not too bad a thing -
- you have a tendency to speak too much as it is. Seriously, though, why do
you think I ever did give you free will in the first place?
Mortal:
Why did you? I never have thought much about why you did; all I have been
arguing for is that you shouldn't have! But why did you? I guess all I can
think of is the standard religious explanation: Without free will, one is
not capable of meriting either salvation or damnation. So without free will,
we could not earn the right to eternal life.
God:
Most interesting! I have eternal life; do you think I have ever done
anything to merit it?
Mortal:
Of course not! With you it is different. You are already so good and
perfect (at least allegedly) that it is not necessary for you to merit
eternal life.
God:
Really now? That puts me in a rather enviable position, doesn't it?
Mortal:
I don't think I understand you.
God:
Here I am eternally blissful without ever having to suffer or make
sacrifices or struggle against evil temptations or anything like that.
Without any of that type of "merit", I enjoy blissful eternal existence. By
contrast, you poor mortals have to sweat and suffer and have all sorts of
horrible conflicts about morality, and all for what? You don't even know
whether I really exist or not, or if there really is any afterlife, or if
there is, where you come into the picture. No matter how much you try to
placate me by being "good," you never have any real assurance that your "
best" is good enough for me, and hence you have no real security in
obtaining salvation. Just think of it! I already have the equivalent of "
salvation" -- and have never had to go through this infinitely lugubrious
process of earning it. Don't you ever envy me for this?
Mortal:
But it is blasphemous to envy you!
God:
Oh come off it! You're not now talking to your Sunday school teacher, you
are talking to me. Blasphemous or not, the important question is not
whether you have the right to be envious of me but whether you are. Are you?
Mortal:
Of course I am!
God:
Good! Under your present world view, you sure should be most envious of
me. But I think with a more realistic world view, you no longer will be. So
you really have swallowed the idea which has been taught you that your life
on earth is like an examination period and that the purpose of providing you
with free will is to test you, to see if you merit blissful eternal life.
But what puzzles me is this: If you really believe I am as good and
benevolent as I am cracked up to be, why should I require people to merit
things like happiness and eternal life? Why should I not grant such things
to everyone regardless of whether or not he deserves them?
Mortal:
But I have been taught that your sense of morality -- your sense of
justice -- demands that goodness be rewarded with happiness and evil be
punished with pain.
God:
Then you have been taught wrong.
Mortal:
But the religious literature is so full of this idea! Take for example
Jonathan Edwards's "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." How he describes
you as holding your enemies like loathsome scorpions over the flaming pit of
hell, preventing them from falling into the fate that they deserve only by
dint of your mercy.
God:
Fortunately, I have not been exposed to the tirades of Mr. Jonathan
Edwards. Few sermons have ever been preached which are more misleading. The
very title "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" tells its own tale. In the
first place, I am never angry. In the second place, I do not think at all
in terms of "sin." In the third place, I have no enemies.
Mortal:
By that do you mean that there are no people whom you hate, or that there
are no people who hate you?
God:
I meant the former although the latter also happens to be true.
Mortal:
Oh come now, I know people who have openly claimed to have hated you. At
times I have hated you!
God:
You mean you have hated your image of me. That is not the same thing as
hating me as I really am.
Mortal:
Are you trying to say that it is not wrong to hate a false conception of
you, but that it is wrong to hate you as you really are?
God:
No, I am not saying that at all; I am saying something far more drastic!
What I am saying has absolutely nothing to do with right or wrong. What I am
saying is that one who knows me for what I really am would simply find it
psychologically impossible to hate me.
Mortal:
Tell me, since we mortals seem to have such erroneous views about your
real nature, why don't you enlighten us? Why don't you guide us the right
way?
God:
What makes you think I'm not?
Mortal:
I mean, why don't you appear to our very senses and simply tell us that
we are wrong?
GOD:
Are you really so naive as to believe that I am the sort of being which
can appear to your senses? It would be more correct to say that I am your
senses.
Mortal (astonished):
You are my senses?
God:
Not quite, I am more than that. But it comes closer to the truth than the
idea that I am perceivable by the senses. I am not an object; like you, I
am a subject, and a subject can perceive, but cannot be perceived. You can
no more see me than you can see your own thoughts. You can see an apple, but
the event of your seeing an apple is itself not seeable. And I am far more
like the seeing of an apple than the apple itself.
Mortal:
If I can't see you, how do I know you exist?
God:
Good question! How in fact do you know I exist?
Mortal:
Well, I am talking to you, am I not?
God:
How do you know you are talking to me? Suppose you told a psychiatrist, "
Yesterday I talked to God." What do you think he would say?
Mortal:
That might depend on the psychiatrist. Since most of them are atheistic,
I guess most would tell me I had simply been talking to myself.
God:
And they would be right!
Mortal:
What? You mean you don't exist?
God:
You have the strangest faculty of drawing false conclusions! Just because
you are talking to yourself, it follows that I don't exist?
Mortal:
Well, if I think I am talking to you, but I am really talking to myself,
in what sense do you exist?
God:
Your question is based on two fallacies plus a confusion. The question of
whether or not you are now talking to me and the question of whether or not
I exist are totally separate. Even if you were not now talking to me (which
obviously you are), it still would not mean that I don't exist.
Mortal:
Well, all right, of course! So instead of saying "if I am talking to
myself, then you don't exist," I should rather have said, "if I am talking
to myself, then I obviously am not talking to you."
God:
A very different statement indeed, but still false.
Mortal:
Oh, come now, if I am only talking to myself, then how can I be talking
to you?
God:
Your use of the word "only" is quite misleading! I can suggest several
logical possibilities under which your talking to yourself does not imply
that you are not talking to me.
Mortal:
Suggest just one!
God:
Well, obviously one such possibility is that you and I are identical.
Mortal:
Such a blasphemous thought -- at least had I uttered it!
God:
According to some religions, yes. According to others, it is the plain,
simple, immediately perceived truth.
Mortal:
So the only way out of my dilemma is to believe that you and I are
identical?
God:
Not at all! This is only one way out. There are several others. For
example, it may be that you are part of me, in which case you may be talking
to that part of me which is you. Or I may be part of you, in which case you
may be talking to that part of you which is me. Or again, you and I might
partially overlap, in which case you may be talking to the intersection and
hence talking both to you and to me. The only way your talking to yourself
might seem to imply that you are not talking to me is if you and I were
totally disjoint -- and even then, you could conceivably be talking to both
of us.
Mortal:
So you claim you do exist.
God:
Not at all. Again you draw false conclusions! The question of my
existence has not even come up. All I have said is that from the fact that
you are talking to yourself one cannot possibly infer my nonexistence, let
alone the weaker fact that you are not talking to me.
Mortal:
All right, I'll grant your point! But what I really want to know is do
you exist?
God:
What a strange question!
Mortal:
Why? Men have been asking it for countless millennia.
God:
I know that! The question itself is not strange; what I mean is that it
is a most strange question to ask of me!
Mortal:
Why?
God:
Because I am the very one whose existence you doubt! I perfectly well
understand your anxiety. You are worried that your present experience with
me is a mere hallucination. But how can you possibly expect to obtain
reliable information from a being about his very existence when you suspect
the nonexistence of the very same being?
Mortal:
So you won't tell me whether or not you exist?
God:
I am not being willful! I merely wish to point out that no answer I could
give could possibly satisfy you. All right, suppose I said, "No, I don't
exist." What would that prove? Absolutely nothing! Or if I said, "Yes, I
exist." Would that convince you? Of course not!
Mortal:
Well, if you can't tell me whether or not you exist, then who possibly
can?
God:
That is something which no one can tell you. It is something which only
you can find out for yourself.
Mortal:
How do I go about finding this out for myself?
God:
That also no one can tell you. This is another thing you will have to
find out for yourself.
Mortal:
So there is no way you can help me?
God:
I didn't say that. I said there is no way I can tell you. But that doesn'
t mean there is no way I can help you.
Mortal:
In what manner then can you help me?
God:
I suggest you leave that to me! We have gotten sidetracked as it is, and
I would like to return to the question of what you believed my purpose to be
in giving you free will. Your first idea of my giving you free will in
order to test whether you merit salvation or not may appeal to many
moralists, but the idea is quite hideous to me. You cannot think of any
nicer reason -- any more humane reason -- why I gave you free will?
Mortal:
Well now, I once asked this question of an Orthodox rabbi. He told me
that the way we are constituted, it is simply not possible for us to enjoy
salvation unless we feel we have earned it. And to earn it, we of course
need free will.
God:
That explanation is indeed much nicer than your former but still is far
from correct. According to Orthodox Judaism, I created angels, and they have
no free will. They are in actual sight of me and are so completely
attracted by goodness that they never have even the slightest temptation
toward evil. They really have no choice in the matter. Yet they are
eternally happy even though they have never earned it. So if your rabbi's
explanation were correct, why wouldn't I have simply created only angels
rather than mortals?
Mortal:
Beats me! Why didn't you?
God:
Because the explanation is simply not correct. In the first place, I have
never created any ready-made angels. All sentient beings ultimately
approach the state which might be called "angelhood." But just as the race
of human beings is in a certain stage of biologic evolution, so angels are
simply the end result of a process of Cosmic Evolution. The only difference
between the so-called saint and the so-called sinner is that the former is
vastly older than the latter. Unfortunately it takes countless life cycles
to learn what is perhaps the most important fact of the universe -- evil is
simply painful. All the arguments of the moralists -- all the alleged
reasons why people shouldn't commit evil acts -- simply pale into
insignificance in light of the one basic truth that evil is suffering.
No, my dear friend, I am not a moralist. I am wholly a utilitarian. That I
should have been conceived in the role of a moralist is one of the great
tragedies of the human race. My role in the scheme of things (if one can use
this misleading expression) is neither to punish nor reward, but to aid the
process by which all sentient beings achieve ultimate perfection.
Mortal:
Why did you say your expression is misleading?
God:
What I said was misleading in two respects. First of all it is inaccurate
to speak of my role in the scheme of things. I am the scheme of things.
Secondly, it is equally misleading to speak of my aiding the process of
sentient beings attaining enlightenment. I am the process. The ancient
Taoists were quite close when they said of me (whom they called "Tao") that
I do not do things, yet through me all things get done. In more modem terms,
I am not the cause of Cosmic Process, I am Cosmic Process itself. I think
the most accurate and fruitful definition of me which man can frame -- at
least in his present state of evolution -- is that I am the very process of
enlightenment. Those who wish to think of the devil (although I wish they
wouldn't!) might analogously define him as the unfortunate length of time
the process takes. In this sense, the devil is necessary; the process simply
does take an enormous length of time, and there is absolutely nothing I can
do about it. But, I assure you, once the process is more correctly
understood, the painful length of time will no longer be regarded as an
essential limitation or an evil. It will be seen to be the very essence of
the process itself. I know this is not completely consoling to you who are
now in the finite sea of suffering, but the amazing thing is that once you
grasp this fundamental attitude, your very finite suffering will begin to
diminish -- ultimately to the vanishing point.
Mortal:
I have been told this, and I tend to believe it. But suppose I personally
succeed in seeing things through your eternal eyes. Then I will be happier,
but don't I have a duty to others?
GOD (laughing):
You remind me of the Mahayana Buddhists! Each one says, "I will not enter
Nirvana until I first see that all other sentient beings do so." So each
one waits for the other fellow to go first. No wonder it takes them so long!
The Hinayana Buddhist errs in a different direction. He believes that no
one can be of the slightest help to others in obtaining salvation; each one
has to do it entirely by himself. And so each tries only for his own
salvation. But this very detached attitude makes salvation impossible. The
truth of the matter is that salvation is partly an individual and partly a
social process. But it is a grave mistake to believe -- as do many Mahayana
Buddhists -- that the attaining of enlightenment puts one out of commission,
so to speak, for helping others. The best way of helping others is by first
seeing the light oneself.
Mortal:
There is one thing about your self-description which is somewhat
disturbing. You describe yourself essentially as a process. This puts you in
such an impersonal light, and so many people have a need for a personal God.
God:
So because they need a personal God, it follows that I am one?
Mortal:
Of course not. But to be acceptable to a mortal a religion must satisfy
his needs.
God:
I realize that. But the so-called "personality" of a being is really more
in the eyes of the beholder than in the being itself. The controversies
which have raged, about whether I am a personal or an impersonal being are
rather silly because neither side is right or wrong. From one point of view,
I am personal, from another, I am not. It is the same with a human being. A
creature from another planet may look at him purely impersonally as a mere
collection of atomic particles behaving according to strictly prescribed
physical laws. He may have no more feeling for the personality of a human
than the average human has for an ant. Yet an ant has just as much
individual personality as a human to beings like myself who really know the
ant. To look at something impersonally is no more correct or incorrect than
to look at it personally, but in general, the better you get to know
something, the more personal it becomes. To illustrate my point, do you
think of me as a personal or impersonal being?
Mortal:
Well, I'm talking to you, am I not?
God:
Exactly! From that point of view, your attitude toward me might be
described as a personal one. And yet, from another point of view -- no less
valid -- I can also be looked at impersonally.
Mortal:
But if you are really such an abstract thing as a process, I don't see
what sense it can make my talking to a mere "process."
God:
I love the way you say "mere." You might just as well say that you are
living in a "mere universe." Also, why must everything one does make sense?
Does it make sense to talk to a tree?
Mortal:
Of course not!
God:
And yet, many children and primitives do just that.
Mortal:
But I am neither a child nor a primitive.
God:
I realize that, unfortunately.
Mortal:
Why unfortunately?
God:
Because many children and primitives have a primal intuition which the
likes of you have lost. Frankly, I think it would do you a lot of good to
talk to a tree once in a while, even more good than talking to me! But we
seem always to be getting sidetracked! For the last time, I would like us to
try to come to an understanding about why I gave you free will.
Mortal:
I have been thinking about this all the while.
God:
You mean you haven't been paying attention to our conversation?
Mortal:
Of course I have. But all the while, on another level, I have been
thinking about it.
God:
And have you come to any conclusion?
Mortal:
Well, you say the reason is not to test our worthiness. And you
disclaimed the reason that we need to feel that we must merit things in
order to enjoy them. And you claim to be a utilitarian. Most significant of
all, you appeared so delighted when I came to the sudden realization that it
is not sinning in itself which is bad but only the suffering which it
causes.
God:
Well of course! What else could conceivably be bad about sinning?
Mortal:
All right, you know that, and now I know that. But all my life I
unfortunately have been under the influence of those moralists who hold
sinning to be bad in itself. Anyway, putting all these pieces together, it
occurs to me that the only reason you gave free will is because of your
belief that with free will, people will tend to hurt each other -- and
themselves -- less than without free will.
God:
Bravo! That is by far the best reason you have yet given! I can assure
you that had I chosen to give free will, that would have been my very reason
for so choosing.
Mortal:
What! You mean to say you did not choose to give us free will?
God:
My dear fellow, I could no more choose to give you free will than I could
choose to make an equilateral triangle equiangular. I could choose to make
or not to make an equilateral triangle in the first place, but having chosen
to make one, I would then have no choice but to make it equiangular.
Mortal:
I thought you could do anything!
God:
Only things which are logically possible. As St. Thomas said, "It is a
sin to regard the fact that God cannot do the impossible, as a limitation on
His powers." I agree, except that in place of his using the word sin I
would use the term error.
Mortal:
Anyhow, I am still puzzled by your implication that you did not choose to
give me free will.
God:
Well, it is high time I inform you that the entire discussion -- from the
very beginning -- has been based on one monstrous fallacy! We have been
talking purely on a moral level -- you originally complained that I gave you
free will, and raised the whole question as to whether I should have. It
never once occurred to you that I had absolutely no choice in the matter.
Mortal:
I am still in the dark!
God:
Absolutely! Because you are only able to look at it through the eyes of a
moralist. The more fundamental metaphysical aspects of the question you
never even considered.
Mortal:
I still do not see what you are driving at.
God:
Before you requested me to remove your free will, shouldn't your first
question have been whether as a matter of fact you do have free will?
Mortal:
That I simply took for granted.
God:
But why should you?
Mortal:
I don't know. Do I have free will?
God:
Yes.
Mortal:
Then why did you say I shouldn't have taken it for granted?
God:
Because you shouldn't. Just because something happens to be true, it does
not follow that it should be taken for granted.
Mortal:
Anyway, it is reassuring to know that my natural intuition about having
free will is correct. Sometimes I have been worried that determinists are
correct.
God:
They are correct.
Mortal:
Wait a minute now, do I have free will or don't I?
God:
I already told you you do. But that does not mean that determinism is
incorrect.
Mortal:
Well, are my acts determined by the laws of nature or aren't they?
God:
The word determined here is subtly but powerfully misleading and has
contributed so much to the confusions of the free will versus determinism
controversies. Your acts are certainly in accordance with the laws of nature
, but to say they are determined by the laws of nature creates a totally
misleading psychological image which is that your will could somehow be in
conflict with the laws of nature and that the latter is somehow more
powerful than you, and could "determine" your acts whether you liked it or
not. But it is simply impossible for your will to ever conflict with natural
law. You and natural law are really one and the same.
Mortal:
What do you mean that I cannot conflict with nature? Suppose I were to
become very stubborn, and I determined not to obey the laws of nature. What
could stop me? If I became sufficiently stubborn even you could not stop me!
God:
You are absolutely right! I certainly could not stop you. Nothing could
stop you. But there is no need to stop you, because you could not even start
! As Goethe very beautifully expressed it, "In trying to oppose Nature, we
are, in the very process of doing so, acting according to the laws of nature
!" Don't you see that the so-called "laws of nature" are nothing more than a
description of how in fact you and other beings do act? They are merely a
description of how you act, not a prescription of of how you should act, not
a power or force which compels or determines your acts. To be valid a law
of nature must take into account how in fact you do act, or, if you like,
how you choose to act.
Mortal:
So you really claim that I am incapable of determining to act against
natural law?
God:
It is interesting that you have twice now used the phrase "determined to
act" instead of "chosen to act." This identification is quite common. Often
one uses the statement "I am determined to do this" synonymously with "I
have chosen to do this." This very psychological identification should
reveal that determinism and choice are much closer than they might appear.
Of course, you might well say that the doctrine of free will says that it is
you who are doing the determining, whereas the doctrine of determinism
appears to say that your acts are determined by something apparently outside
you. But the confusion is largely caused by your bifurcation of reality
into the "you" and the "not you." Really now, just where do you leave off
and the rest of the universe begin? Or where does the rest of the universe
leave off and you begin? Once you can see the so-called "you" and the so-
called "nature" as a continuous whole, then you can never again be bothered
by such questions as whether it is you who are controlling nature or nature
who is controlling you. Thus the muddle of free will versus determinism will
vanish. If I may use a crude analogy, imagine two bodies moving toward each
other by virtue of gravitational attraction. Each body, if sentient, might
wonder whether it is he or the other fellow who is exerting the "force." In
a way it is both, in a way it is neither. It is best to say that it is the
configuration of the two which is crucial.
Mortal:
You said a short while ago that our whole discussion was based on a
monstrous fallacy. You still have not told me what this fallacy is.
God:
Why, the idea that I could possibly have created you without free will!
You acted as if this were a genuine possibility, and wondered why I did not
choose it! It never occurred to you that a sentient being without free will
is no more conceivable than a physical object which exerts no gravitational
attraction. (There is, incidentally, more analogy than you realize between a
physical object exerting gravitational attraction and a sentient being
exerting free will!) Can you honestly even imagine a conscious being without
free will? What on earth could it be like? I think that one thing in your
life that has so misled you is your having been told that I gave man the
gift of free will. As if I first created man, and then as an afterthought
endowed him with the extra property of free will. Maybe you think I have
some sort of "paint brush" with which I daub some creatures with free will
and not others. No, free will is not an "extra"; it is part and parcel of
the very essence of consciousness. A conscious being without free will is
simply a metaphysical absurdity.
Mortal:
Then why did you play along with me all this while discussing what I
thought was a moral problem, when, as you say, my basic confusion was
metaphysical?
God:
Because I thought it would be good therapy for you to get some of this
moral poison out of your system. Much of your metaphysical confusion was due
to faulty moral notions, and so the latter had to be dealt with first.
And now we must part -- at least until you need me again. I think our
present union will do much to sustain you for a long while. But do remember
what I told you about trees. Of course, you don't have to literally talk to
them if doing so makes you feel silly. But there is so much you can learn
from them, as well as from the rocks and streams and other aspects of nature
. There is nothing like a naturalistic orientation to dispel all these
morbid thoughts of "sin" and "free will" and "moral responsibility." At one
stage of history, such notions were actually useful. I refer to the days
when tyrants had unlimited power and nothing short of fears of hell could
possibly restrain them. But mankind has grown up since then, and this
gruesome way of thinking is no longer necessary.
It might be helpful to you to recall what I once said through the writings
of the great Zen poet Seng-Ts'an:
If you want to get the plain truth,
Be not concerned with right and wrong.
The conflict between right and wrong
Is the sickness of the mind. | n********n
发帖数: 8336 | 2 Thanks. Good article.
It's good to think "in the box" and "out of the box".
It echoes in many aspects of my thought. | n********n
发帖数: 8336 | 3 "God:
That explanation is indeed much nicer than your former but still is far
from correct. According to Orthodox Judaism, I created angels, and they have
no free will. They are in actual sight of me and are so completely
attracted by goodness that they never have even the slightest temptation
toward evil. They really have no choice in the matter. Yet they are
eternally happy even though they have never earned it. So if your rabbi's
explanation were correct, why wouldn't I have simply created only angels
rather than mortals?
Mortal:
Beats me! Why didn't you?
God:
Because the explanation is simply not correct. In the first place, I have
never created any ready-made angels. All sentient beings ultimately
approach the state which might be called "angelhood." But just as the race
of human beings is in a certain stage of biologic evolution, so angels are
simply the end result of a process of Cosmic Evolution. The only difference
between the so-called saint and the so-called sinner is that the former is
vastly older than the latter. Unfortunately it takes countless life cycles
to learn what is perhaps the most important fact of the universe -- evil is
simply painful. All the arguments of the moralists -- all the alleged
reasons why people shouldn't commit evil acts -- simply pale into
insignificance in light of the one basic truth that evil is suffering.
No, my dear friend, I am not a moralist. I am wholly a utilitarian. That I
should have been conceived in the role of a moralist is one of the great
tragedies of the human race. My role in the scheme of things (if one can use
this misleading expression) is neither to punish nor reward, but to aid the
process by which all sentient beings achieve ultimate perfection.
Mortal:
Why did you say your expression is misleading?
God:
What I said was misleading in two respects. First of all it is inaccurate
to speak of my role in the scheme of things. I am the scheme of things.
Secondly, it is equally misleading to speak of my aiding the process of
sentient beings attaining enlightenment. I am the process. The ancient
Taoists were quite close when they said of me (whom they called "Tao") that
I do not do things, yet through me all things get done. In more modem terms,
I am not the cause of Cosmic Process, I am Cosmic Process itself. I think
the most accurate and fruitful definition of me which man can frame -- at
least in his present state of evolution -- is that I am the very process of
enlightenment. Those who wish to think of the devil (although I wish they
wouldn't!) might analogously define him as the unfortunate length of time
the process takes. In this sense, the devil is necessary; the process simply
does take an enormous length of time, and there is absolutely nothing I can
do about it. But, I assure you, once the process is more correctly
understood, the painful length of time will no longer be regarded as an
essential limitation or an evil. It will be seen to be the very essence of
the process itself. I know this is not completely consoling to you who are
now in the finite sea of suffering, but the amazing thing is that once you
grasp this fundamental attitude, your very finite suffering will begin to
diminish -- ultimately to the vanishing point." | n********n
发帖数: 8336 | 4 "God:
So because they need a personal God, it follows that I am one?
Mortal:
Of course not. But to be acceptable to a mortal a religion must satisfy
his needs.
God:
I realize that. But the so-called "personality" of a being is really more
in the eyes of the beholder than in the being itself. The controversies
which have raged, about whether I am a personal or an impersonal being are
rather silly because neither side is right or wrong. From one point of view,
I am personal, from another, I am not. It is the same with a human being. A
creature from another planet may look at him purely impersonally as a mere
collection of atomic particles behaving according to strictly prescribed
physical laws. He may have no more feeling for the personality of a human
than the average human has for an ant. Yet an ant has just as much
individual personality as a human to beings like myself who really know the
ant. To look at something impersonally is no more correct or incorrect than
to look at it personally, but in general, the better you get to know
something, the more personal it becomes. To illustrate my point, do you
think of me as a personal or impersonal being?
Mortal:
Well, I'm talking to you, am I not?
God:
Exactly! From that point of view, your attitude toward me might be
described as a personal one. And yet, from another point of view -- no less
valid -- I can also be looked at impersonally.
" | n********n
发帖数: 8336 | 5 "God:
And have you come to any conclusion?
Mortal:
Well, you say the reason is not to test our worthiness. And you
disclaimed the reason that we need to feel that we must merit things in
order to enjoy them. And you claim to be a utilitarian. Most significant of
all, you appeared so delighted when I came to the sudden realization that it
is not sinning in itself which is bad but only the suffering which it
causes.
God:
Well of course! What else could conceivably be bad about sinning?
Mortal:
All right, you know that, and now I know that. But all my life I
unfortunately have been under the influence of those moralists who hold
sinning to be bad in itself. Anyway, putting all these pieces together, it
occurs to me that the only reason you gave free will is because of your
belief that with free will, people will tend to hurt each other -- and
themselves -- less than without free will.
God:
Bravo! That is by far the best reason you have yet given! I can assure
you that had I chosen to give free will, that would have been my very reason
for so choosing." | n********n
发帖数: 8336 | 6 "God:
The word determined here is subtly but powerfully misleading and has
contributed so much to the confusions of the free will versus determinism
controversies. Your acts are certainly in accordance with the laws of nature
, but to say they are determined by the laws of nature creates a totally
misleading psychological image which is that your will could somehow be in
conflict with the laws of nature and that the latter is somehow more
powerful than you, and could "determine" your acts whether you liked it or
not. But it is simply impossible for your will to ever conflict with natural
law. You and natural law are really one and the same.
Mortal:
What do you mean that I cannot conflict with nature? Suppose I were to
become very stubborn, and I determined not to obey the laws of nature. What
could stop me? If I became sufficiently stubborn even you could not stop me!
God:
You are absolutely right! I certainly could not stop you. Nothing could
stop you. But there is no need to stop you, because you could not even start
! As Goethe very beautifully expressed it, "In trying to oppose Nature, we
are, in the very process of doing so, acting according to the laws of nature
!" Don't you see that the so-called "laws of nature" are nothing more than a
description of how in fact you and other beings do act? They are merely a
description of how you act, not a prescription of of how you should act, not
a power or force which compels or determines your acts. To be valid a law
of nature must take into account how in fact you do act, or, if you like,
how you choose to act.
Mortal:
So you really claim that I am incapable of determining to act against
natural law?
God:
It is interesting that you have twice now used the phrase "determined to
act" instead of "chosen to act." This identification is quite common. Often
one uses the statement "I am determined to do this" synonymously with "I
have chosen to do this." This very psychological identification should
reveal that determinism and choice are much closer than they might appear.
Of course, you might well say that the doctrine of free will says that it is
you who are doing the determining, whereas the doctrine of determinism
appears to say that your acts are determined by something apparently outside
you. But the confusion is largely caused by your bifurcation of reality
into the "you" and the "not you." Really now, just where do you leave off
and the rest of the universe begin? Or where does the rest of the universe
leave off and you begin? Once you can see the so-called "you" and the so-
called "nature" as a continuous whole, then you can never again be bothered
by such questions as whether it is you who are controlling nature or nature
who is controlling you. Thus the muddle of free will versus determinism will
vanish. If I may use a crude analogy, imagine two bodies moving toward each
other by virtue of gravitational attraction. Each body, if sentient, might
wonder whether it is he or the other fellow who is exerting the "force." In
a way it is both, in a way it is neither. It is best to say that it is the
configuration of the two which is crucial." | n********n
发帖数: 8336 | 7 "Mortal:
So the only way out of my dilemma is to believe that you and I are
identical?
God:
Not at all! This is only one way out. There are several others. For
example, it may be that you are part of me, in which case you may be talking
to that part of me which is you. Or I may be part of you, in which case you
may be talking to that part of you which is me. Or again, you and I might
partially overlap, in which case you may be talking to the intersection and
hence talking both to you and to me. The only way your talking to yourself
might seem to imply that you are not talking to me is if you and I were
totally disjoint -- and even then, you could conceivably be talking to both
of us.
Mortal:
So you claim you do exist.
God:
Not at all. Again you draw false conclusions! The question of my
existence has not even come up. All I have said is that from the fact that
you are talking to yourself one cannot possibly infer my nonexistence, let
alone the weaker fact that you are not talking to me.
.........
God:
Because I am the very one whose existence you doubt! I perfectly well
understand your anxiety. You are worried that your present experience with
me is a mere hallucination. But how can you possibly expect to obtain
reliable information from a being about his very existence when you suspect
the nonexistence of the very same being?
Mortal:
So you won't tell me whether or not you exist?
God:
I am not being willful! I merely wish to point out that no answer I could
give could possibly satisfy you. All right, suppose I said, "No, I don't
exist." What would that prove? Absolutely nothing! Or if I said, "Yes, I
exist." Would that convince you? Of course not!
Mortal:
Well, if you can't tell me whether or not you exist, then who possibly
can?
God:
That is something which no one can tell you. It is something which only
you can find out for yourself." | J*******g
发帖数: 8775 | 8 把道家提到的天或是道理解成会说话的神，挺有意思。
不过，这里的神跟基督教的神似乎不太一样。
这里的神似乎不太干预世事，但是圣经中的神会干预。
这里的神没提耶稣，没提神对人的救赎。
这里的神似乎不承认灵魂的存在，而人似乎完全是物质的。不过有些基督徒也认为灵魂
不存在。
而且他说神是实用主义。似乎没有伤害就不算罪。
但是耶稣说当我们心里怨恨弟兄姐妹时，我们已经犯了杀人罪。
圣经提到的很多罪，也没有对别人和自己造成实际的损害。比如同性恋，兽交。
最重要的是，亚当夏娃吃了智慧树的果子又如何呢？谁也没受伤害啊。除了上帝自己很
没面子。
所以基督教的罪应该不仅仅是做了产生痛苦的行为这么简单的。
【在 C*******r 的大作中提到】
: 这是数学家，逻辑学家Smullyan对free will问题的一次尝试。Smullyan本人认为他自
: 己是道家哲学者。
: Mortal:
: And therefore, O God, I pray thee, if thou hast one ounce of mercy for
: this thy suffering creature, absolve me of having to have free will!
: God:
: You reject the greatest gift I have given thee?
: Mortal:
: How can you call that which was forced on me a gift? I have free will,
: but not of my own choice. I have never freely chosen to have free will. I
| h****9
发帖数: 1087 | 9 God:
All right, I'll do as you say. But you do realize that this new you
without free will, will commit all sorts of horrible acts.
Mortal:
But they will not be sins since he will have no free will.
God:
Whether you call them sins or not, the fact remains that they will be
horrible acts in the sense that they will cause great pain to many sentient
beings.
谁给解释一下,为什么“this new you without free will, will commit all sorts
of horrible acts.”
【在 C*******r 的大作中提到】
: 这是数学家，逻辑学家Smullyan对free will问题的一次尝试。Smullyan本人认为他自
: 己是道家哲学者。
: Mortal:
: And therefore, O God, I pray thee, if thou hast one ounce of mercy for
: this thy suffering creature, absolve me of having to have free will!
: God:
: You reject the greatest gift I have given thee?
: Mortal:
: How can you call that which was forced on me a gift? I have free will,
: but not of my own choice. I have never freely chosen to have free will. I
| n********n
发帖数: 8336 | 10 作者文中提到自由意志是人意识的一部分
人没有了自由意志，也就失去了意识的一部分，行为会类似病态呆傻之类的。
sentient
【在 h****9 的大作中提到】
: God:
: All right, I'll do as you say. But you do realize that this new you
: without free will, will commit all sorts of horrible acts.
: Mortal:
: But they will not be sins since he will have no free will.
: God:
: Whether you call them sins or not, the fact remains that they will be
: horrible acts in the sense that they will cause great pain to many sentient
: beings.
: 谁给解释一下,为什么“this new you without free will, will commit all sorts
| | | h****9
发帖数: 1087 | 11 不明白。没有自由意志的东西很多，但不会做坏事。
【在 n********n 的大作中提到】
: 作者文中提到自由意志是人意识的一部分
: 人没有了自由意志，也就失去了意识的一部分，行为会类似病态呆傻之类的。
:
: sentient
| n********n
发帖数: 8336 | 12 请举例。
自由意志，就是选择的可能性。
动物有选择的可能吗？是的。
基于生存的选择，趋利避害。
如果去掉自由意志，就会破坏思维。
吃了迷幻药的人，盲从他人，估计就是这个效果。
【在 h****9 的大作中提到】
: 不明白。没有自由意志的东西很多，但不会做坏事。
| n********n
发帖数: 8336 | 13 道家的“道”是非人格化的，不向人说话，道静，道虚，实际是自然规律。
作者说SIN IS SIMPLY SUFFERING/PAINFUL,应该包括自己内心的痛苦内疚冲突煎熬等，
不只是对别人的伤害。他是着重了罪的效果，即苦难痛苦。但还是不同的概念。
【在 J*******g 的大作中提到】
: 把道家提到的天或是道理解成会说话的神，挺有意思。
: 不过，这里的神跟基督教的神似乎不太一样。
: 这里的神似乎不太干预世事，但是圣经中的神会干预。
: 这里的神没提耶稣，没提神对人的救赎。
: 这里的神似乎不承认灵魂的存在，而人似乎完全是物质的。不过有些基督徒也认为灵魂
: 不存在。
: 而且他说神是实用主义。似乎没有伤害就不算罪。
: 但是耶稣说当我们心里怨恨弟兄姐妹时，我们已经犯了杀人罪。
: 圣经提到的很多罪，也没有对别人和自己造成实际的损害。比如同性恋，兽交。
: 最重要的是，亚当夏娃吃了智慧树的果子又如何呢？谁也没受伤害啊。除了上帝自己很
| n********n
发帖数: 8336 | 14 GOD:
Are you really so naive as to believe that I am the sort of being which
can appear to your senses? It would be more correct to say that I am your
senses.
Mortal (astonished):
You are my senses?
God:
Not quite, I am more than that. But it comes closer to the truth than the
idea that I am perceivable by the senses. I am not an object; like you, I
am a subject, and a subject can perceive, but cannot be perceived. You can
no more see me than you can see your own thoughts. You can see an apple, but
the event of your seeing an apple is itself not seeable. And I am far more
like the seeing of an apple than the apple itself.
Mortal:
If I can't see you, how do I know you exist? | n********n
发帖数: 8336 | 15 "God:
Because I thought it would be good therapy for you to get some of this
moral poison out of your system. Much of your metaphysical confusion was due
to faulty moral notions, and so the latter had to be dealt with first.
And now we must part -- at least until you need me again. I think our
present union will do much to sustain you for a long while. But do remember
what I told you about trees. Of course, you don't have to literally talk to
them if doing so makes you feel silly. But there is so much you can learn
from them, as well as from the rocks and streams and other aspects of nature
. There is nothing like a naturalistic orientation to dispel all these
morbid thoughts of "sin" and "free will" and "moral responsibility." At one
stage of history, such notions were actually useful. I refer to the days
when tyrants had unlimited power and nothing short of fears of hell could
possibly restrain them. But mankind has grown up since then, and this
gruesome way of thinking is no longer necessary." |
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