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TrustInJesus版 - Sovereignty of God
相关主题
What Love is This?(92)全能的上帝不需要预定罪恶
What Love is This?(31) 阿民念
What Love is This?(41)多特会议的白色恐怖
What Love is This?(74) 上帝会诅咒人下地狱吗?
What Love is This?(94)全能的神不需要先做预定
John 10 'I said, you are gods'
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加尔文主义与阿米念主义的共同点(林慈信)
What Love is This?(36) 阿民念五要点形成和加尔文派的抗辩
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相关话题的讨论汇总
话题: god话题: arminians话题: calvinists话题: some
进入TrustInJesus版参与讨论
1 (共1页)
n********n
发帖数: 8336
1
Believing in the sovereignty of God is not an option of yes, no, or maybe
within the Christian context. If the Bible is our authoritative guide, one
must believe that God is sovereign. It is not unlike the issue of
predestination. That God predestines people to salvation is not up for
debate, what is up for debate is what it means that God predestines.
Both Calvinists and Arminians agree that God is sovereign, but they will
often disagree as to what this means.
Here are the four primary options:
1. Meticulous sovereignty: God is the instrumental cause behind every action
and reaction there has ever been. In other words, you chose white socks
instead of the black socks because God caused it to happen. You have an itch
on your eyebrow right now because God is actively causing it. In other
words, every molecule that bounces into another is a result of God active
agency in being the first and instrumental cause to the action.
This position holds little or no tension with regards to the human will and
the divine will.
God is actively controlling everything.
Adherents: Hyper-Calvinists and some Calvinists
2. Providential sovereignty: While God is bringing about his will in
everything (Eph 1:11), his will is not the instrumental cause of all that
happens. God’s will plays a providential role in “causing” all things. In
other words, all that happens happens because God did in some sense will it
, but secondary causes are usually the instrumental cause behind the action.
In the case of your socks, you chose them because you decided to, but it
was also part of God’s will. God allows evil as it is part of his imperfect
will to bring about a perfect end, but he is not the instrumental cause of
evil.
This position holds much tension with regards to human will and divine will.
God is in control of everything.
Adherents: Calvinists and some Arminians
3. Providential oversight: Here God’s sovereignty is more of an oversight.
He has a general plan, but is not married to the details. When necessary,
God will intervene in the affairs of humanity to bring about his purpose,
but this does not necessarily involve an intimate engagement with all that
happens. God does not care what color socks you pick unless it somehow
effects his meta plan.
This position holds much tension with regards to human will and divine will.
God could control everything, but only controls some things.
Adherents: Arminians and some Calvinists
4. Influential oversight: Here God’s sovereignty is self-limited. God could
control things, but to preserve human freedom, he will not intervene in the
affairs of men to the degree that the human will is decisively bent in one
direction or another. He is hopeful that his influence will be persuasive to
change a person’s heart or to guide them to his will, but is not sure if
this will happen. Being all-wise, however, God will make strategic moves in
people’s lives that will manipulate the situation to his advantage.
This position holds little or no tension with regards to the human will and
the divine will.
God could control everything, but decides only to influence.
Adherents: Open Theist Arminians and some Arminians
Here are some charts that might help.
This first one is God’s relationship to evil. Please note: the definitions
below are that of emphasis, not necessarily exclusivity—there will be
overlap with some of the concepts.
I write this for many reason:
1. To give the spectrum of belief with regard to the issue of divine
sovereignty.
2. To clear up some misconceptions about both Calvinists and Arminians. Most
Arminians see Calvinists as only associated with number 1 (meticulous
sovereignty). As well, most Calvinists see Arminians as associated
necessarily with number 4 (influential sovereignty). To do this is to
construct many possible straw-men representations.
Notice, according to my argument, an Arminian holding to number 2 can
actually hold to a stronger view of divine sovereignty than a Calvinist
holding to number 3 (although this is not typical). If that does not confuse
your categories, I don’t know what will!
3. To create some new charts!
What do you mean when you say God is sovereign?
(Best of Parchment and Pen)
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2009/02/what-do-you-mean-
n********n
发帖数: 8336
2
Here are some charts that might help.
This first one is God’s relationship to evil. Please note: the definitions
below are that of emphasis, not necessarily exclusivity—there will be
overlap with some of the concepts.
o***1
发帖数: 592
3
This is nonsense. You cannot even define god, understand god, how can you
talk about his sovereignty? It all imagination running wild.

action

【在 n********n 的大作中提到】
: Believing in the sovereignty of God is not an option of yes, no, or maybe
: within the Christian context. If the Bible is our authoritative guide, one
: must believe that God is sovereign. It is not unlike the issue of
: predestination. That God predestines people to salvation is not up for
: debate, what is up for debate is what it means that God predestines.
: Both Calvinists and Arminians agree that God is sovereign, but they will
: often disagree as to what this means.
: Here are the four primary options:
: 1. Meticulous sovereignty: God is the instrumental cause behind every action
: and reaction there has ever been. In other words, you chose white socks

J*******g
发帖数: 8775
4
这是根据圣经得出的,如果脱离圣经谈神的权威确实会有问题。
基督徒是有理由相信圣经的。如果你质疑圣经是否可靠,那就是另一个问题了。
现在有很多人认为人的生命,这个世界都是毫无意义的。当然对这些人来说,什么都是
nonsense。而圣经的传道书中也正说出了类似的观点。
传道书 1
1 以下是在耶路撒冷做王的大卫之子——传道者的话。 2 传道者说:虚空的虚空,虚
空的虚空,一切都是虚空。 3 人在日光之下的一切劳碌有什么益处呢? 4 一代过去
,一代又来,大地却永远长存。 5 太阳升起,太阳落下,匆忙回到升起之地。 6 风
吹向南,又转向北,循环不息,周而复始。 7 江河涌流入海,海却不会满溢;江河从
何处流出,又返回何处。 8 万事令人厌烦,人述说不尽。眼看,看不饱;耳听,听不
够。 9 以往发生的事,将来还会发生;先前做过的事,将来也必再做。日光之下,根
本没有新事。 10 人可以指着哪件事说:“看啊,这是新事”?所谓的新事在我们以
前早就有了。 11 过去的事无人记得,将来的事后人也不记得。
但是最后传道书的作者却说。
传道书 12
13 以上所说的,总而言之,就是要敬畏上帝,遵守祂的诫命,这是人的本分。 14 因
为人一切的行为,无论善恶,包括一切隐秘事,上帝都必审问。
所以基督徒并不认为世界是nonsense。而敬畏神才是人要做的最基本的。

【在 o***1 的大作中提到】
: This is nonsense. You cannot even define god, understand god, how can you
: talk about his sovereignty? It all imagination running wild.
:
: action

n********n
发帖数: 8336
5
旨在讨论上帝如何决定、控制世界,神的主权是如何行使的,但具体仍然是奥秘。
上帝是第一因,但上帝也可以/可能是后续某一结果的直接或间接原因。

action

【在 n********n 的大作中提到】
: Believing in the sovereignty of God is not an option of yes, no, or maybe
: within the Christian context. If the Bible is our authoritative guide, one
: must believe that God is sovereign. It is not unlike the issue of
: predestination. That God predestines people to salvation is not up for
: debate, what is up for debate is what it means that God predestines.
: Both Calvinists and Arminians agree that God is sovereign, but they will
: often disagree as to what this means.
: Here are the four primary options:
: 1. Meticulous sovereignty: God is the instrumental cause behind every action
: and reaction there has ever been. In other words, you chose white socks

o***1
发帖数: 592
6
毫无根据的联想。 认为奢谈神的主权是nonsense, 不等同于认为生命, 世界没有意
义。

【在 J*******g 的大作中提到】
: 这是根据圣经得出的,如果脱离圣经谈神的权威确实会有问题。
: 基督徒是有理由相信圣经的。如果你质疑圣经是否可靠,那就是另一个问题了。
: 现在有很多人认为人的生命,这个世界都是毫无意义的。当然对这些人来说,什么都是
: nonsense。而圣经的传道书中也正说出了类似的观点。
: 传道书 1
: 1 以下是在耶路撒冷做王的大卫之子——传道者的话。 2 传道者说:虚空的虚空,虚
: 空的虚空,一切都是虚空。 3 人在日光之下的一切劳碌有什么益处呢? 4 一代过去
: ,一代又来,大地却永远长存。 5 太阳升起,太阳落下,匆忙回到升起之地。 6 风
: 吹向南,又转向北,循环不息,周而复始。 7 江河涌流入海,海却不会满溢;江河从
: 何处流出,又返回何处。 8 万事令人厌烦,人述说不尽。眼看,看不饱;耳听,听不

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相关主题
Oneness in Christ -- Calvinism or Ariminanism
Question: "Calvinism vs. Arminianism - which view is correct?"
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What Love is This?(87) 愿上帝拣选更多!
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只有被拣选的人才能明白神的旨意
相关话题的讨论汇总
话题: god话题: arminians话题: calvinists话题: some