g*******y
发帖数: 202 | 1 http://www.mitbbs.com/news_wenzhang/MiscNews/31239737.html
编者按：中国威风凛凛的崛起经常标上回归历史正常水平。普遍的说法认为在过去5000
年的大部分时间，中国是世界财富、文化、科技和权力的中心。Mitbbs.com
China’s awe-inspiring rise is often framed as the return to a historical
norm. A common belief is that for most of the last 5,000 years, China was
the world’s center of wealth, culture, technology, and power. The 19th and
20th centuries, we are told, were a brief aberration, and China is now
simply retaking its rightful place as the world’s preeminent nation. This
trope gives China a certain air of inevitability.Mitbbs.com
中国威风凛凛的崛起经常标上回归历史正常水平。普遍的说法认为在过去5000年的大部
分时间，中国是世界财富、文化、科技和权力的中心。从19到20世纪时，我们被告知只
是一时之差，而中国现在只需重夺其应有的地位成为世界上最杰出的国家。这种修辞给
了中国一股不可逆转命运的气息。Mitbbs.com
The problem is, it’s not really accurate.Mitbbs.com
问题是，并不是真的很准确。Mitbbs.com
The truth is that for most of its history, China has struggled to overcome a
number of chronic difficulties that have usually kept it from global
preeminence.Mitbbs.com
对於它的大部分历史而言，中国竭力克服许多长期的困境，这通常使得它远离全球的优
势地位。Mitbbs.com
Let’s start by recalling ancient China, starting from 5,000 years ago. The
early Chinese kingdoms—Xia, Shang, and Zhou—roughly coincided with ancient
Egypt, Babylon, Persia, and Greece, and China’s famous Han Dynasty
coincided with Rome. Ian Morris, a Stanford historian and author of Why the
West Rules—For Now, has constructed an “index of development” that takes
into account urbanization. According to Morris’ index, the Mediterranean
and Middle Eastern civilizations of the Ancient and Classical periods were
well ahead of their Chinese counterparts.Mitbbs.com
我们先来回顾从中国古代开始的5000年以前。中国早期的王朝—夏、商、周—大约正逢
古埃及、巴比伦、波斯和希腊，然後中国最着名的汉朝正逢罗马帝国时期。伊恩·莫里
斯，一个斯坦福大学的历史学家和《西方将主宰多久》的作家，设计了一项考虑到城市
化的"发展指数"。根据莫里斯的指数，地中海和中东文明的古代和古典时期，遥遥领先
了他们的中国同行。Mitbbs.com
For example, the Roman Empire had many more miles of roads than Han China,
and much more shipping. Although China had a few things that Rome did not—
most notably the horse collar and paper—Rome in general had far more
impressive engineering and technology, including advanced plumbing, mining
techniques, and construction techniques. Han China was poorer—most people’
s houses had dirt floors. In terms of basic science, Morris has less to say,
but ancient Greece was hard to beat in this regard (though ancient China
was ahead in algebra). Military power is hard to gauge, since China and the
West never directly confronted each other.Mitbbs.com
例如，罗马帝国有比中国汉朝较多公里的道路，和更多的航路运输。尽管中国有一些罗
马所没有的东西—最引人注目的马项圈和纸张，罗马一般有更多令人印象深刻的工程与
科技，包含先进的水管设施、采矿技术和工程技术。中国汉朝较差—大部分人的房子有
脏污泥地。在基础科学方面，莫里斯较少言及，但是古希腊很难在这方面击败 (虽然中
国古代在代数领先)。军事力量不好估计，因为中国和西方并未直接对抗。Mitbbs.com
According to Morris’ data, China became richer and more developed than the
West’s leading nation around the 6th century A.D. The fall of Rome and the
division of the Mediterranean into European and Middle Eastern halves
stifled sea trade, while China assimilated its rich South and began growing
rice on a large scale. For the next 1,000 years, China was the richest place
on the planet. During the years from 500 A.D. to 1200 A.D., China invented
the compass, gunpowder, printing, compartmentalized ship hulls, paper money,
advanced farming techniques, and a great deal of algebra and astronomy.
Mitbbs.com
根据莫里斯的数据，中国在大约在公元6世纪比起西方主要国家变得富有和更为发达。
罗马的衰落後，地中海被划分为欧洲与中东半窒息的海洋贸易上，中国同化了富庶的南
方，并开始大规模种植水稻。在接下去的1000年，中国是地球上最富有的地方。从公元
500年到1200年间，中国发明了指南针、火药、印刷、水密隔舱、纸币、先进的农业技
术和大量的代数与天文学。Mitbbs.com
But China’s preeminence was hardly uncontested during this period. Though
Europe was an economic, military and technological backwater during the
Middle Ages, the Islamic empires—the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphates—
rivaled China in size, and actually defeated China in their one military
clash (the Battle of Talas). Islamic civilization was also no slouch in
basic science.Mitbbs.com
但是在这期间中国的全球优势地位几乎无可争议。虽然欧洲在中世纪的经济、军事、科
技上一滩死水，伊斯兰帝国—倭马亚王朝和阿拔斯王朝—在规模上与中国匹敌，并且在
他们的军事冲突中实际打败中国 (怛罗斯之战)。伊斯兰文明也对基础科学没有懈怠。
Mitbbs.com
Meanwhile, China during its golden age was plagued by internal and external
security threats. The An Shi rebellion tore apart China’s Tang dynasty at
that empire’s height, killing millions; the dynasty never recovered. The
Jurchen (ancestors of the Manchus) conquered North China in the 1100s,
forcing the Sung Dynasty—the wealthiest and most technologically dynamic of
the old Chinese dynasties—to relocate to the south. In the 1200s, the
Mongols conquered all of China, which they ruled until 1368.Mitbbs.com
与此同时，中国在它的黄金时代也被内忧外患困扰。安史之乱彻底捣毁了中国唐朝的帝
国顶峰，成千上万被杀，王朝也从未复原。女真人(满族的祖先)在12世纪为了移居到南
部征服中国北方。在13世纪，蒙古人征服了全中国，他们一直被统治到1368年。Mitbbs
.com
China regained stability during the Ming dynasty in the 14th to 17th
centuries. During that dynasty, China was militarily powerful, defeating
incursions by the Mongols, Japanese, Dutch, and Portuguese. But this period
was also a “Great Stagnation” for China. Technological progress
essentially stopped. A brief spurt of exploration by the Chinese explorer
Zheng He (whose scope may have been exaggerated; none of the giant ships
attributed to the expedition have ever been found) proved to be one of a
kind, when the Chinese government restricted shipbuilding.Mitbbs.com
中国明朝在14至17世纪期间恢复稳定。在那个时期，中国军力强大，击退了蒙古人、日
本人、荷兰人、葡萄牙人的入侵。但是这时期对中国来说也是一场"大停滞"。科技进步
基本停止；由中国探险家郑和率领的短暂冲锋 (航行范围有可能被夸大；没有一艘巨大
船舶被认为是探险队被发现)被证明是独一独二的，当中国政府限制造船业後。Mitbbs.
com
During the first half of the 2nd millennium A.D., the Middle East stagnated
as well, but Europe was climbing out of the deep hole of the Middle Ages. By
the 1500s, propelled by the discovery of the New World, Europe was making
rapid strides in science and technology; by the 1600s, according to economic
historians, much of Europe was richer than China.Mitbbs.com
进入第二千年的上半时，中东也停滞不前，但是欧洲正从中世纪的深渊里爬出。到了16
世纪，受到发现新大陆的驱动，欧洲在科学和技术产生跨越式发展。到了17世纪，根据
经济史学家的说法，欧洲大部分地区比中国富裕。Mitbbs.com
So to sum up, China has always been one of the world’s leading
civilizations over the last five millennia. But it has only held both
economic and military preeminence for brief periods of time—the late 1300s
and 1400s being the most notable. Why has China not been preeminent for
longer stretches? History is not a science, but we can make some guesses.
The very thing that makes China so powerful and important–its titanic size
–also endows it with fundamental weaknesses.Mitbbs.com
总的来说，中国在过去五千年一直是世界领先的文明之一。但是同时掌握经济和军事上
优势地位的时间却很短暂—14世纪和15世纪是最显着的。为什麽中国的优势地位没有延
续更长？历史并非科学，但是我们可以做出一点猜测。造成中国如此强大和重要的原因
是，其巨大无比的规模，但也赋予其根本性缺陷。Mitbbs.com
Throughout its history, China has been plagued by enormous rebellions, from
the An Shi rebellion in the 700s to the Taiping Rebellion in the 1800s.
These rebellions are always incredibly destructive of human life and the
economy. They often expose China to external conquest, as with the fall of
the Ming dynasty in the 1600s or the Japanese conquests in the 1930s. They
sometimes result in the rise of extremely destructive and dysfunctional
regimes, like Mao’s ascendance in the 20th century.Mitbbs.com
综观其历史，中国一直饱受巨大叛乱的困扰，从8世纪的安史之乱到19世纪的太平天国
之乱。这些叛乱总是给人类生活与经济造成难以置信的破坏力。他们时常使中国暴露在
外族征服上，随着在17世纪明朝的陨落和1930年代日本人的征服。他们有时会造成极大
破坏性和非正常政权的兴起，例如毛泽东在20世纪的统治地位。Mitbbs.com
Why does China have all these major rebellions? Because it’s big. Large
countries are geographically and industrially diverse, and therefore it
becomes difficult to agree on what public goods to provide (this is why city
-states are often very efficient). Regions fight over resources. In addition
, China is endowed with very few natural resources relative to its enormous
population size, meaning that food and water shortages can be acute and
terrible.Mitbbs.com
为什麽中国有这些重大的叛乱？因为它很大，由於大型国家在地理和工业上的多样化，
因此变得很难就供给何种公共产品上达成一致意见(这就是城市国家能常常高效率的原
因)，地区抢占资源。此外，中国被赋予相对很少的天然资源来应付庞大的人口规模，
意味着粮食和水资源短缺会是严重和可怕的。Mitbbs.com
China’s incredible bigness has other drawbacks. It made China difficult to
defend in ancient times. In modern times, it means that China has lots of
powerful neighbor—India, Russia, and Japan—with whom relations are not
always smooth. And some historians, such as Jared Diamond, have argued that
China’s size held back its technological progress; because it could win
wars by sheer size and rely on its domestic economy, they argue, China was
never forced to invest in military technology or open itself up to trade.
Mitbbs.com
中国不可置信的巨大也有其他缺点。这让中国在远古时期很难防卫。在现代就意味着中
国有很多强大的邻居—印度、俄罗斯和日本—而且同他们的关系并不一直顺利。而一些
历史学家像是贾雷德·戴蒙德辩称，中国的规模阻碍了科技进步；因为它可以用绝对规
模和依靠国内经济在战争取胜，他们争辩，中国从不被迫投资军事技术或者通过贸易来
对外开放。Mitbbs.com | s***i
发帖数: 10182 | 2 标题的statement是对的
北宋经济文化民生科技和社会稳定是最好的
当然蒙古坑王正在赶来的路上
5000
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 8.2.2
【在 g*******y 的大作中提到】
: http://www.mitbbs.com/news_wenzhang/MiscNews/31239737.html
: 编者按：中国威风凛凛的崛起经常标上回归历史正常水平。普遍的说法认为在过去5000
: 年的大部分时间，中国是世界财富、文化、科技和权力的中心。Mitbbs.com
: China’s awe-inspiring rise is often framed as the return to a historical
: norm. A common belief is that for most of the last 5,000 years, China was
: the world’s center of wealth, culture, technology, and power. The 19th and
: 20th centuries, we are told, were a brief aberration, and China is now
: simply retaking its rightful place as the world’s preeminent nation. This
: trope gives China a certain air of inevitability.Mitbbs.com
: 中国威风凛凛的崛起经常标上回归历史正常水平。普遍的说法认为在过去5000年的大部
| g*******y
发帖数: 202 | 3 ？
【在 s***i 的大作中提到】
: 标题的statement是对的
: 北宋经济文化民生科技和社会稳定是最好的
: 当然蒙古坑王正在赶来的路上
:
: 5000
: ★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 8.2.2
| o**n
发帖数: 2130 | 4 我觉得真正领先的大概是这么几个阶段：
BC 14-2c 从商到战国，古埃及衰落，罗马尚未兴起
AD 6-15c 从隋到明初，罗马衰落，到文艺复兴开始
假如人类文明史从3000bc开始算，一共5000年，我们占了大概一半，我觉得说长时间领
先并没有什么问题 | v*******e
发帖数: 11604 | 5 又是老生长谈：中国VS全世界
我们可以谈谈中国VS希腊，中国VS罗马，中国VS蒙古，中国VS西班牙，中国灭它们分分
秒的事情。
但是要中国VS全世界那也要求太高了。 | R*******a
发帖数: 2463 | 6 But China’s preeminence was hardly uncontested during this period. Though
Europe was an economic, military and technological backwater during the
Middle Ages, the Islamic empires—the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphates—
rivaled China in size, and actually defeated China in their one military
clash (the Battle of Talas). Islamic civilization was also no slouch in
倭马亚王朝和阿拔斯在规模上无法与隋唐相提并论，阿拉伯内部的纷争战乱也更频繁，
举例而言，第二任哈里发在耶路撒冷修阿克萨大穹顶，就花光了埃及六年的赋税。而同
时期隋炀帝在修大运河。工程量不是一个数量级的。
欧洲中心论的历史学一般很难客观的比较中世纪时的阿拉伯和东亚。因为欧洲那时太穷
太落后了，一个只骑自行车的人谈不上分辨正牌神车和奥迪A8的驾驶感觉。 | c*******l
发帖数: 2083 | | f****m
发帖数: 7469 | 8 可以请买买提著名鞑子邓轮k....给你解释
【在 g*******y 的大作中提到】
: ？
| f**********4
发帖数: 2617 | 9 Ian Morris的观点实际上是比较亲中国的了，算不上西方中心论。罗马和汉朝的比较，
即使在对于历史有所了解的中国人群体中也不是一下可以定论的事情。他把整个文艺复
兴前的欧洲简单置于同时期中国之下（而且是大大落后）已经是颇能可贵的了。此时阿
拉伯文明和中国的比较也是没有定论的事情。北宋自不必说了。
实际上，他出了书后针对他的批评主要是某些红脖子教授还不满意他不提“生物学”上
的差距——其实就是赤裸裸的种族主义。
另外这个主贴这个翻译可真够呛。把“But China’s preeminence was hardly
uncontested during this period. ”翻成“但是在这期间中国的全球优势地位几乎无
可争议。” 完全反了嘛！ | o****d
发帖数: 5454 | 10 说的对，第一个是中国在崛起，而埃及在衰退，因此有很大的领先。
第二次华夏在衰落了，但是罗马衰落更厉害。。
【在 o**n 的大作中提到】
: 我觉得真正领先的大概是这么几个阶段：
: BC 14-2c 从商到战国，古埃及衰落，罗马尚未兴起
: AD 6-15c 从隋到明初，罗马衰落，到文艺复兴开始
: 假如人类文明史从3000bc开始算，一共5000年，我们占了大概一半，我觉得说长时间领
: 先并没有什么问题
| J*****2
发帖数: 498 | 11 同时种，胡萝卜长到很繁盛的时候，人参才不点儿大，但不要把两个来比较，不是一样
的东西。黑人3岁的小孩就能拿杯子去711买slurpie，自己去自己回。但10几岁大脑就
发育到头了，寒冷地区的人发育晚，但生长期长，如研究说的日本人到了30岁大脑还有
发育的迹象。东方所谓的文明发展快但停滞期也长，不能拿来和科学体系的另一个东西
比较的。 | d**********6
发帖数: 4434 | 12 大部分中国牛逼的时代都是分久必合后的时间。这时候的统治者不是世袭，而是物竞天
择而来，个人能力都很强。同时又用心修正了前朝的一些弊端而得以更强大。
最关键的是修正的方向，如果是增加社会公平性的修正，比如秦汉废分封，唐宋科举等
，都会促使社会大进步。
而一些扼杀社会活力的修正则会使国家倒退，比如明朝重启分封，清的文字狱已经两朝
的关锁国和户口制等。 | w**a
发帖数: 2461 | 13 基本正确。
少了一条，中国复兴过几次，而其他领先的文明，很多连后人不找不见了。 | C****a
发帖数: 6593 | 14 张国焘说得好
我就一直不明白，我们为什么要比全世界都要好，这有啥意义阿，莫不是全世界要形成
联军一起来灭我们?
【在 v*******e 的大作中提到】
: 又是老生长谈：中国VS全世界
: 我们可以谈谈中国VS希腊，中国VS罗马，中国VS蒙古，中国VS西班牙，中国灭它们分分
: 秒的事情。
: 但是要中国VS全世界那也要求太高了。
|
|
