w********9
发帖数: 8613 | | w********9
发帖数: 8613 | 2 http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/28/world/asia/korean-war-fast-facts/
The casualty toll had been reported as 54,246 until June 2000, when the
Pentagon acknowledged that a clerical error had included deaths outside the
Korean War theater in the total.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-many-americans-died-in-korea/
June 5, 2000 - As the 50th anniversary of the start of the Korean War
approaches, one key statistic is being reclarified— the one detailing just
how many Americans were killed in the war.
For years after the war ended in 1953, the Pentagon published a figure of 54
,260. That combined the 33,643 "battle deaths" with 20,617 "other deaths."
But in 1989 the Pentagon began revising the totals because "other deaths"
included U.S. military deaths worldwide during the three years of the war,
rather than just those soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines who died in and
around the Korean peninsula.
In the 1994 version of its annual publication, Service and Casualties in
Major Wars and Conflicts, the Pentagon put Korean War battle deaths at 33,
652 and "other deaths" meaning deaths in the war zone from illness,
accidents and other non-battle causes at 3,262. That yields a total of 36,
914.
Today's official Pentagon figures are virtually the same: 33,651 battle
deaths and 3,262 other deaths.
Why, then, has the old figure of 54,000 deaths been used by the Department
of Defense 50th Anniversary of the Korean War Commemorative Committee in a
newsletter meant to highlight the war's history?
Maj. Bob White, the committee's historian, said Monday he had been using the
old 54,000 figure until he recently discovered that the Pentagon's casualty
statistics had been revised several years ago.
The higher figure also is engraved on the Korean War Veterans Memorial on
the National Mall in Washington apparently because the memorial's organizers
wanted to honor all military members who died during the period of the war,
not just those lost in Korea.
It might not be surprising that there would be confusion over Korean War
casualty figures. The Pentagon made its official revisions over a period of
several years, with little or no public explanation.
For several years in the early 1990s the "other deaths" figures were simply
listed as "not available," and so there was no official Defense Department
total combining battle deaths and other deaths.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2000-06-05/news/0006050034_1
WASHINGTON, D.C. — The Pentagon has revised downward the number of U.S.
soldiers who died in the 1950-53 Korean War, and said the "primary culprit"
for the error was an unnamed clerk, Time magazinereported Sunday.
The Pentagon cut the death toll from 54,246 to 36,940, Time said in its
current edition.
The higher toll was given after a bureaucrat mistakenly added all non-combat
deaths worldwide to the toll of combat deaths in Korea, Time reported. That
meant that the death toll was inflated by more than 17,000 for about a half
-century.
http://www.newson6.com/story/7674679/pentagon-knew-about-error-
WASHINGTON aPresident Clinton and veterans from across the nation will
gather in somber remembrance Sunday afternoon at the Korean War Veterans
Memorial, where it is carved into stone that 54,246 Americans died in the
war that began 50 years ago.
For decades, the number has been enshrined in histories, almanacs, monuments
and memories, reverently cited as proof of the war's cost. But nearly one-
third of those deaths a17,730 aoccurred elsewhere, often half a
world away from Korea. The actual number of Americans killed in the Korean
War theater of operations is 36,516, the Pentagon acknowledged this month.
"If you were walking down the street in Washington, D.C., and were hit by a
car, you'd be considered a casualty of the Korean War," said Burt Hagelin, a
Korean War veteran who helped uncover the historical mystery.
The error was blamed on an anonymous government clerk who in the 1950s
mistakenly added noncombat deaths worldwide to the total, and the correction
was credited to revised accounting procedures, according to brief news
accounts reporting the Pentagon's clarification. That is not the real story,
according to veterans and others who have been pushing for years to get the
numbers corrected.
Revised data available
"Fifty years later, they're trying to drop it all on one clerk," said
Richard Kolb, publisher of VFW Magazine, a Veterans of Foreign Wars
publication that has lobbied several times for the number to be corrected. "
They had the facts all along. Now they're acting like it's a new revelation."
Pentagon officials have known for years that the 54,000 figure is inflated
and believed before the memorial was dedicated in 1995 that engraving that
number in black granite would be misleading, according to interviews. But at
the insistence of the veterans committee that oversaw the memorial's
construction, the larger figure was used.
Far more than an arcane numbers game, the issue is deeply emotional to many
Korean War veterans, who see the lower, revised total as one more slap at
their oft-ignored sacrifices.
Vets cling to old number
Some veterans, tired of the conflict being slighted in favor of the Vietnam
War, say 54,000 remains an accurate tally because all those killed were part
of the general war effort, regardless of where they died. They are angry
that VFW Magazine and others have suggested changing the number engraved
along the memorial's Pool of Remembrance.
If the Vietnam Veterans Memorial included out-of-area deaths along with the
58,000-plus names engraved on the Wall, it would have to add the names of
more than 20,000 Americans who died in the United States and elsewhere from
1965 through 1975, according to a study cited by VFW Magazine.
Two Korean War veterans from Maine are responsible for bringing the issue to
the fore through years of prodding, Mr. Kolb said.
Mr. Hagelin, who was with the 2nd Infantry Division during the bloody
fighting for the outpost known as Old Baldy, read an article in the early
1990s that said the 54,000 Americans killed in the Korean War included 20,
000 nonbattle deaths.
"I couldn't believe it," said Mr. Hagelin, 69, a self-described "Maine farm
boy" in the town of Dover Foxcraft.
Mr. Hagelin started making inquiries at the Pentagon, asking to see
statistics on the nonbattle deaths, which usually stem from accidents,
training mishaps and disease.
But Mr. Hagelin obtained data after members of Maine's congressional
delegation applied pressure on his behalf. He teamed up with a former
soldier from Augusta, Marty O'Brien, who was independently investigating the
matter. "The numbers were all over the place," said Mr. O'Brien, 70, a 1st
Cavalry Division veteran.
Through the Freedom of Information Act, Mr. O'Brien obtained a microfiche
showing the Army's nonbattle deaths during the war, information the Army had
claimed did not exist.
Working together, Mr. Hagelin and Mr. O'Brien helped establish that most of
the 20,000 nonbattle deaths during the war occurred outside Korea.
The Pentagon published statistics in 1994 and subsequent years showing that
17,000 of the nonbattle deaths occurred elsewhere. About 2,800 of the
nonbattle deaths occurred in the theater. When that figure was added to the
33,600 killed in battle, the number of Americans who died in the war came to
fewer than 37,000.
Nonetheless, the Pentagon made no effort to publicize the new numbers, and
the 54,000 figure continued to be generally accepted.
54,000 number pervasive
The Pentagon's Korean War Commemorations Committee used the higher figure in
promotional bookmarks it published this year.
"The 54,000 number became so pervasive in the secondary literature that we
felt it not necessary to go to the primary sources," said Air Force Maj. Bob
White, the committee's historian.
Maj. White said he learned the figure was suspect from a military historian
who saw the bookmark.
The 54,000 figure dates to the war's end in 1953, reflecting about 33,600
killed in battle and 20,600 nonhostile deaths worldwide.
The total of 54,000 became the common reference for Korean War deaths. For
many Korean veterans, the fact that it is close to the 58,000 killed in
Vietnam was significant.
The veterans' view won out as far as the monument was concerned. "Had it not
been for the Korean War, they would never have been drafted," said Bob
Hansen of the Korean War Veterans Memorial Advisory Board.
http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,997160,00.
A half-century after the Korean War, THE PENTAGON has just revised the
number of Americans killed in the conflict, from 54,246 to 36,940. It seems
that the higher figure--endorsed by the Encyclopaedia Britannica and
engraved on the five-year-old KOREAN WAR VETERANS MEMORIAL on the National
Mall in Washington--cropped up shortly after both sides declared a truce in
1953 and has been repeated, erroneously, ever since.
The "primary culprit" for the error was an anonymous government clerk, the
Pentagon says. The bureaucrat mistakenly added all nonbattlefield U.S.
military deaths--20,617--that occurred worldwide during the three-year
conflict to the more than 33,000 U.S. | z***y
发帖数: 13818 | | w********9
发帖数: 8613 | 4 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB111937345541365397
A decade ago, the Department of Defense corrected an important point in U.S.
military history: about 36,000 American soldiers died in the Korean War,
not 54,000 as first thought. The revision was the result of new research,
conducted at the request of veterans.
Yet as the 55th anniversary of the war's beginning approaches, the larger,
incorrect figure can still be found in textbooks and newspapers, in recent
speeches from lawmakers and on war memorials -- demonstrating how bad
statistics can linger after they've been corrected.
The 54,000 figure included all soldiers who died during the war, anywhere in
the world, from any cause -- including about 18,000 heart attacks, suicides
, car accidents and other nonwar deaths during the war years. Some occurred
thousands of miles from the theater of war. In the mid-1990s, the Department
of Defense began to clarify the record, and that quiet change received
widespread publicity in 2000, on the 50th anniversary of the war.
But the higher number lives on today. Olympia J. Snowe, a Republican senator
from Maine, said in a press release last month, "Let there be no doubt --
the 54,000 Americans who perished on the Korean peninsula and in the
neighboring seas are to be honored and exalted in our time -- and for all
time." (A spokesman for Sen. Snowe declined to comment when I contacted her
office.) After spotting the news coverage about the numerical error,
Encyclopedia Britannica corrected its online entry a few years ago and in
print in 2003, senior editor Robert Curley told me. World Book also uses the
lower figure, a spokeswoman told me. But Wikipedia, a popular user-edited
online encyclopedia, carried the 54,000 figure as of Wednesday in its entry
on the war. Most newspaper articles mentioning the Korean War's death toll
now cite the lower figure or qualify the higher one. But the higher number
has cropped up dozens of times in the past five years, including articles in
the past month in the Gainsville, Ga., Times and Canada's CBC News, and a
Waco Tribune-Herald editorial.
Burt Hagelin and Marty O'Brien, two veterans from Sen. Snowe's state, led a
campaign to correct the historical record, which the Department of Defense
blames on a faulty counting methodology and, also, on a fire at the National
Personnel Records Center in St. Louis that destroyed many records and
delayed research. Their efforts led to the update by the government,
followed by articles in the Veterans of Foreign Wars' magazine and the
Washington Post leading up to the 50th anniversary of the start of the war -
- five years ago Saturday. (Numbers Guy reader Bob Haines noticed the shift
and suggested I look into it.)
There are several reasons the old number persists. One is that most books
aren't updated regularly like encyclopedias -- a search within books on
Amazon.com finds several that contain the 54,000 figure, including "The
Korean War: The Story and Photographs" and "The Coldest War: A Memoir of
Korea." Not all school textbooks have been updated yet, including several
from Pearson Prentice Hall. Pearson spokeswoman Wendy Spiegel told me "our
forthcoming texts will reflect the newest scholarship." Meanwhile, the
number 54,000 carries symbolic value for veteran's groups because it is
close to the roughly 58,000 American soldiers who died in Vietnam, and they
feel the Korean War is the "forgotten war" compared with Vietnam. (See the
Department of Defense's breakdown of casualties from the Korean War, the
Vietnam War and all U.S. wars.)
For Mr. Hagelin, who was a squad leader with the Second Infantry Division in
Korea, the truth about his own conflict is paramount. "It's our war," Mr.
Hagelin, now 74 years old and living in Dover Foxcroft, Maine, told me. "Let
's get the records straight." | r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 5 美军战史的数字一直都是3.6万，比如《朝鲜，我们第一次战败》
http://www.shuku.net:8080/novels/wars/cxwmdycsb/cxwmdycsb62.htm
美国在整个战争中的伤亡总数为139272人，尚不包括冻伤及其他受伤人数。其
中有24965 名死亡，101368名负伤，另有12939 名失踪，估计已经死亡。南朝鲜共
损失272975人，其中有46182 名死亡，15972 名负伤，另有66436 名失踪。其他联
合国军成员共损失14103 人，其中2597名属于死亡，9581名负伤，1925名失踪。共
产党方面，据参谋长联席会议估计：北朝鲜620264人死伤总数中，有214899名死亡，
303685名负伤，101680名失踪。中国死伤总数909607人，其中401401名死亡，486995
名负伤，21211 名失踪。
因此在整个战争中，双方伤亡总数达到195.6 万人。北、南朝鲜共有200 多万
平民死亡。此外，南朝鲜大部分地区及实际上全部北朝鲜遭到巨大破坏，要想恢复
需耗时数年。 | r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 6 朝鲜战争刚结束，美国时代杂志有下面初估数字，约38,000人死亡、失踪、被俘：
08/03/1953, Time Magazine, "At Last"
The war had cost the U.S. more than 140,000 casualties (some 25,000 dead,
102,000 wounded, 13,000 missing and captured), $22 billion.
过了半年，更详细的数字是死亡、失踪合计 33,635人。
01/11/1954, Time Magazine, "Presumed Dead"
Last week the U.S. added 3,656 names to its list of Korean war dead. All the
men —3,400 from the Army and 256 from the Air Force—had been classified "
missing in action" for at least a year, now are "presumed dead." Still
counted as missing: some 3,713 servicemen. New total of U.S. dead: 29,922.
再过一段日子，终于拍板定案成为33,629人，1960年代出版的书籍就是使用这个数字：
Robert Leckie, Conflict: The History of the Korean War, Avon Book: New York,
1962, 384 pages.
第331页，战斗死亡33,629，伤103,284。
David Rees, Korea: The Limited War, St. Martins: New York, 1964.
附录C:战斗死亡33,629人。
同时期的新闻报导拿越战跟朝战比较，也是使用33,629人这个数字。
08/02/1963, Time Magazine, "A Place of 10 Million Words",
Winding past Pork Chop Hill, Heartbreak Ridge, Old Baldy and other blood-
drenched ground, the Military Demarcation Line runs for 151 miles across the
waist of Korea. It was drawn at a cost of 1,820,000 casualties, including
33,629 U.S. dead and 103,284 wounded.
05/14/1969, Time Magazine, "Nixon's Hard Choice in Vienam"
U.S. dead in Viet Nam now number 32,376, and the total is fast approaching
the Korean War figure of 33,629. | r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 7 5.4万是战争期间全球美军死亡数字，其中包括7000空军和近5000海军，稍有常识的人
就知道美海空军不可能在朝鲜战争中死那么多人。 | w********9
发帖数: 8613 | 8
这不是官方文件.而且是3万8.
如前大量报道:广大的各界美国民众在40年里不知道3万6.
【在 r*****y 的大作中提到】
: 美军战史的数字一直都是3.6万，比如《朝鲜，我们第一次战败》
: http://www.shuku.net:8080/novels/wars/cxwmdycsb/cxwmdycsb62.htm
: 美国在整个战争中的伤亡总数为139272人，尚不包括冻伤及其他受伤人数。其
: 中有24965 名死亡，101368名负伤，另有12939 名失踪，估计已经死亡。南朝鲜共
: 损失272975人，其中有46182 名死亡，15972 名负伤，另有66436 名失踪。其他联
: 合国军成员共损失14103 人，其中2597名属于死亡，9581名负伤，1925名失踪。共
: 产党方面，据参谋长联席会议估计：北朝鲜620264人死伤总数中，有214899名死亡，
: 303685名负伤，101680名失踪。中国死伤总数909607人，其中401401名死亡，486995
: 名负伤，21211 名失踪。
: 因此在整个战争中，双方伤亡总数达到195.6 万人。北、南朝鲜共有200 多万
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 9 这是官方战史，3.8万里有被俘活着回来的，所以最后确定的死亡是3.6万。
【在 w********9 的大作中提到】
:
: 这不是官方文件.而且是3万8.
: 如前大量报道:广大的各界美国民众在40年里不知道3万6.
| w********9
发帖数: 8613 | | | | r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 11 民众一直都知道。就是在战争期间，美国的媒体也一直在报道伤亡数字。停战时的数字
就是2.4万死亡加1.2万失踪，后来失踪大部分转化为死亡了。
朝鲜战争刚结束，美国时代杂志有下面初估数字，约38,000人死亡、失踪、被俘：
08/03/1953, Time Magazine, "At Last"
The war had cost the U.S. more than 140,000 casualties (some 25,000 dead,
102,000 wounded, 13,000 missing and captured), $22 billion.
过了半年，更详细的数字是死亡、失踪合计 33,635人。
01/11/1954, Time Magazine, "Presumed Dead"
Last week the U.S. added 3,656 names to its list of Korean war dead. All the
men —3,400 from the Army and 256 from the Air Force—had been classified "
missing in action" for at least a year, now are "presumed dead." Still
counted as missing: some 3,713 servicemen. New total of U.S. dead: 29,922.
再过一段日子，终于拍板定案成为33,629人，1960年代出版的书籍就是使用这个数字：
Robert Leckie, Conflict: The History of the Korean War, Avon Book: New York,
1962, 384 pages.
第331页，战斗死亡33,629，伤103,284。
David Rees, Korea: The Limited War, St. Martins: New York, 1964.
附录C:战斗死亡33,629人。
同时期的新闻报导拿越战跟朝战比较，也是使用33,629人这个数字。
08/02/1963, Time Magazine, "A Place of 10 Million Words",
Winding past Pork Chop Hill, Heartbreak Ridge, Old Baldy and other blood-
drenched ground, the Military Demarcation Line runs for 151 miles across the
waist of Korea. It was drawn at a cost of 1,820,000 casualties, including
33,629 U.S. dead and 103,284 wounded.
05/14/1969, Time Magazine, "Nixon's Hard Choice in Vienam"
U.S. dead in Viet Nam now number 32,376, and the total is fast approaching
the Korean War figure of 33,629.
【在 w********9 的大作中提到】
: 除非你有实在内容,否则我不会再回复.
| l******t
发帖数: 55733 | 12
the
Time也算战史？
【在 r*****y 的大作中提到】
: 朝鲜战争刚结束，美国时代杂志有下面初估数字，约38,000人死亡、失踪、被俘：
: 08/03/1953, Time Magazine, "At Last"
: The war had cost the U.S. more than 140,000 casualties (some 25,000 dead,
: 102,000 wounded, 13,000 missing and captured), $22 billion.
: 过了半年，更详细的数字是死亡、失踪合计 33,635人。
: 01/11/1954, Time Magazine, "Presumed Dead"
: Last week the U.S. added 3,656 names to its list of Korean war dead. All the
: men —3,400 from the Army and 256 from the Air Force—had been classified "
: missing in action" for at least a year, now are "presumed dead." Still
: counted as missing: some 3,713 servicemen. New total of U.S. dead: 29,922.
| g******t
发帖数: 18158 | 13 广大的各界美国民众你好，广大的各界美国民众再见
【在 w********9 的大作中提到】
: 除非你有实在内容,否则我不会再回复.
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 14 你根本就是道听途说，没有任何实在的内容。
【在 w********9 的大作中提到】
: 除非你有实在内容,否则我不会再回复.
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 15 我有说time是战史？我没贴过战史比如朝鲜我们第一次战败的数字？我引用time是为了
说明美国民众一直都知道3.6万这个数字，而不是所谓的40年来都是5.4万这个数字。
【在 l******t 的大作中提到】
:
: the
: Time也算战史？
| w********9
发帖数: 8613 | 16
the
这些仍然不是官方的数据.
我一直用"40年"是有原因的.官方的3万6第一次出现大致在1990左右,但是没有在大众传
播.
【在 r*****y 的大作中提到】
: 朝鲜战争刚结束，美国时代杂志有下面初估数字，约38,000人死亡、失踪、被俘：
: 08/03/1953, Time Magazine, "At Last"
: The war had cost the U.S. more than 140,000 casualties (some 25,000 dead,
: 102,000 wounded, 13,000 missing and captured), $22 billion.
: 过了半年，更详细的数字是死亡、失踪合计 33,635人。
: 01/11/1954, Time Magazine, "Presumed Dead"
: Last week the U.S. added 3,656 names to its list of Korean war dead. All the
: men —3,400 from the Army and 256 from the Air Force—had been classified "
: missing in action" for at least a year, now are "presumed dead." Still
: counted as missing: some 3,713 servicemen. New total of U.S. dead: 29,922.
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 17 战争刚结束就有3.6万的数字，美军六七十年代的战史都是这个数字。5.4万是全球美军
死亡人数。
【在 w********9 的大作中提到】
: 这是简单的事实.
| w********9
发帖数: 8613 | 18
显然未读2楼内容的绿点,
你坏,
未迎不送.
【在 g******t 的大作中提到】
: 广大的各界美国民众你好，广大的各界美国民众再见
| w********9
发帖数: 8613 | 19
2楼的内容都是道听途说????????????
【在 r*****y 的大作中提到】
: 你根本就是道听途说，没有任何实在的内容。
| w********9
发帖数: 8613 | 20 2楼解释得很清楚.从官方到民众,长期一直用5万4. | | | r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 21 胡扯，从官方到民众，3.6万的数字一直都在用，5.4万是战争期间全球美军死亡人数，
包括1.7万和朝鲜战争无关的非战区死亡。
民众一直都知道。就是在战争期间，美国的媒体也一直在报道伤亡数字。停战时的数字
就是2.4万死亡加1.2万失踪，后来失踪大部分转化为死亡了。
朝鲜战争刚结束，美国时代杂志有下面初估数字，约38,000人死亡、失踪、被俘：
08/03/1953, Time Magazine, "At Last"
The war had cost the U.S. more than 140,000 casualties (some 25,000 dead,
102,000 wounded, 13,000 missing and captured), $22 billion.
过了半年，更详细的数字是死亡、失踪合计 33,635人。
01/11/1954, Time Magazine, "Presumed Dead"
Last week the U.S. added 3,656 names to its list of Korean war dead. All the
men —3,400 from the Army and 256 from the Air Force—had been classified "
missing in action" for at least a year, now are "presumed dead." Still
counted as missing: some 3,713 servicemen. New total of U.S. dead: 29,922.
再过一段日子，终于拍板定案成为33,629人，1960年代出版的书籍就是使用这个数字：
Robert Leckie, Conflict: The History of the Korean War, Avon Book: New York,
1962, 384 pages.
第331页，战斗死亡33,629，伤103,284。
David Rees, Korea: The Limited War, St. Martins: New York, 1964.
附录C:战斗死亡33,629人。
同时期的新闻报导拿越战跟朝战比较，也是使用33,629人这个数字。
08/02/1963, Time Magazine, "A Place of 10 Million Words",
Winding past Pork Chop Hill, Heartbreak Ridge, Old Baldy and other blood-
drenched ground, the Military Demarcation Line runs for 151 miles across the
waist of Korea. It was drawn at a cost of 1,820,000 casualties, including
33,629 U.S. dead and 103,284 wounded.
05/14/1969, Time Magazine, "Nixon's Hard Choice in Vienam"
U.S. dead in Viet Nam now number 32,376, and the total is fast approaching
the Korean War figure of 33,629.
【在 w********9 的大作中提到】
: 2楼解释得很清楚.从官方到民众,长期一直用5万4.
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 22 5.4万是全球美军死亡人数，包括1.7万和朝鲜战争无关的非战区死亡。这是基本事实。
【在 w********9 的大作中提到】
: 这是简单的事实.
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 23 美日韩六七十年代的战史都是3.6万，美军伤亡战时一直都在报道，到停战时就是2.4万
战死加1.2万失踪。5.4万是全球美军死亡。
【在 w********9 的大作中提到】
: 2楼解释得很清楚.从官方到民众,长期一直用5万4.
| w********9
发帖数: 8613 | 24 我引用的内容，全面、非常清楚地叙述了5万4这个数字长期（40年）被各界所用的事实
. | w********9
发帖数: 8613 | | P******9
发帖数: 15 | 26 老子当年把你射在狗逼里真是作孽。
【在 z***y 的大作中提到】
: 志愿军炮灰几十年了也搞不清到底死了几个人。
| P******9
发帖数: 15 | 27 官方有屁用。稍有常识的人都知道真相肯定是在双方声称之间。老子当年真应该把你射
马桶里。
【在 r*****y 的大作中提到】
: 5.4万是战争期间全球美军死亡数字，其中包括7000空军和近5000海军，稍有常识的人
: 就知道美海空军不可能在朝鲜战争中死那么多人。
| M****u
发帖数: 17708 | 28 死这么多，现在是死不起了
【在 w********9 的大作中提到】
: 这是简单的事实.
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 29 你是纯粹胡说八道，对不利于你的证据故意视而不见。
美日韩六七十年代的战史都是3.6万，美军伤亡战时一直都在报道，到停战时就是2.4万
战死加1.2万失踪。5.4万是全球美军死亡。
【在 w********9 的大作中提到】
: 我引用的内容，全面、非常清楚地叙述了5万4这个数字长期（40年）被各界所用的事实
: .
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 30 哪个双方？怎么声称？
【在 P******9 的大作中提到】
: 官方有屁用。稍有常识的人都知道真相肯定是在双方声称之间。老子当年真应该把你射
: 马桶里。
| | | r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 31 胡扯，从官方到民众，3.6万的数字一直都在用，5.4万是战争期间全球美军死亡人数，
包括1.7万和朝鲜战争无关的非战区死亡。
民众一直都知道。就是在战争期间，美国的媒体也一直在报道伤亡数字。停战时的数字
就是2.4万死亡加1.2万失踪，后来失踪大部分转化为死亡了。
朝鲜战争刚结束，美国时代杂志有下面初估数字，约38,000人死亡、失踪、被俘：
08/03/1953, Time Magazine, "At Last"
The war had cost the U.S. more than 140,000 casualties (some 25,000 dead,
102,000 wounded, 13,000 missing and captured), $22 billion.
过了半年，更详细的数字是死亡、失踪合计 33,635人。
01/11/1954, Time Magazine, "Presumed Dead"
Last week the U.S. added 3,656 names to its list of Korean war dead. All
the
men —3,400 from the Army and 256 from the Air Force—had been classified "
missing in action" for at least a year, now are "presumed dead." Still
counted as missing: some 3,713 servicemen. New total of U.S. dead: 29,922.
再过一段日子，终于拍板定案成为33,629人，1960年代出版的书籍就是使用这个数字：
Robert Leckie, Conflict: The History of the Korean War, Avon Book: New York,
1962, 384 pages.
第331页，战斗死亡33,629，伤103,284。
David Rees, Korea: The Limited War, St. Martins: New York, 1964.
附录C:战斗死亡33,629人。
同时期的新闻报导拿越战跟朝战比较，也是使用33,629人这个数字。
08/02/1963, Time Magazine, "A Place of 10 Million Words",
Winding past Pork Chop Hill, Heartbreak Ridge, Old Baldy and other blood-
drenched ground, the Military Demarcation Line runs for 151 miles across
the
waist of Korea. It was drawn at a cost of 1,820,000 casualties, including
33,629 U.S. dead and 103,284 wounded.
05/14/1969, Time Magazine, "Nixon's Hard Choice in Vienam"
U.S. dead in Viet Nam now number 32,376, and the total is fast approaching
the Korean War figure of 33,629.
【在 w********9 的大作中提到】
: Case closed。不再回复。
| p******o
发帖数: 9007 | 32 The casualty toll had been reported as 54,246 until June 2000, when the
Pentagon acknowledged that a clerical ERROR（！）had included deaths outside
the Korean War theater in the total.
美国国防部已经清清楚楚地承认这是个“错误”，更不要说还把这个“错误”的数字刻
在朝鲜战争纪念碑上了。不知道李将军还在凹什么。 | p******o
发帖数: 9007 | 33 The casualty toll had been reported as 54,246 until June 2000, when the
Pentagon acknowledged that a clerical ERROR（！）had included deaths outside
the Korean War theater in the total.
美国国防部已经清清楚楚地承认这是个“错误”，更不要说还把这个“错误”的数字刻
在朝鲜战争纪念碑上了。不知道李将军还在凹什么。 | f*****n
发帖数: 12752 | 34 很好奇当时在朝鲜以外地区美军是怎么死掉一万八千人的 | r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 35 你承认这是个错误就好，问题是小将五毛不承认，试图证明5.4万是真实的美军朝鲜死
亡人数。
outside
【在 p******o 的大作中提到】
: The casualty toll had been reported as 54,246 until June 2000, when the
: Pentagon acknowledged that a clerical ERROR（！）had included deaths outside
: the Korean War theater in the total.
: 美国国防部已经清清楚楚地承认这是个“错误”，更不要说还把这个“错误”的数字刻
: 在朝鲜战争纪念碑上了。不知道李将军还在凹什么。
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 36 300万美军，平均每年死6000。年死亡率千份之二。二战时美军非战斗死亡率千分之三
，80年代美军非战斗死亡率千份之一。50年代的千份之二非战斗死亡率很正常。死亡原
因包括病死事故死意外死等等。
【在 f*****n 的大作中提到】
: 很好奇当时在朝鲜以外地区美军是怎么死掉一万八千人的
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 37 根据1953年6月1日印行的《二次大战陆军战斗伤亡与非战斗死亡最后报告》的数字，美
国陆军1946年在本土非战斗死亡2807人。由于1946年是持续复员裁军，人越来越少，就
拿年中数字来当平均值，1946年5月31日美国陆军在本土有约111.7万人。这样计算起来
，1946年在本土非战斗死亡每10万人为251.3人。 | f*****n
发帖数: 12752 | 38 二战和80年代美军总数有吗？不知和50年代的300万差多少？二战结束美国都修养五年
了，非战斗死亡率还是那么高，倒也有趣。
【在 r*****y 的大作中提到】
: 300万美军，平均每年死6000。年死亡率千份之二。二战时美军非战斗死亡率千分之三
: ，80年代美军非战斗死亡率千份之一。50年代的千份之二非战斗死亡率很正常。死亡原
: 因包括病死事故死意外死等等。
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 39 80年代美军200万，平均每年死2000，非战斗死亡率千分之一。二战美军人数变化挺大
的，二战美军总共非战斗死亡12万。非战斗死亡和修不修养无关，基本一段时间内是个
比较恒定的比例数字。
【在 f*****n 的大作中提到】
: 二战和80年代美军总数有吗？不知和50年代的300万差多少？二战结束美国都修养五年
: 了，非战斗死亡率还是那么高，倒也有趣。
| h*****9
发帖数: 4028 | 40 美军只要不是战场当场被打死的，都属非战死亡，哪怕刚抬到后方医院马上就死，都算
意外。
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 1.0.3
【在 f*****n 的大作中提到】
: 二战和80年代美军总数有吗？不知和50年代的300万差多少？二战结束美国都修养五年
: 了，非战斗死亡率还是那么高，倒也有趣。
| | | r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 41 这完全是愤青谣传，战伤死被俘死失踪死，都是战斗死亡。
【在 h*****9 的大作中提到】
: 美军只要不是战场当场被打死的，都属非战死亡，哪怕刚抬到后方医院马上就死，都算
: 意外。
:
: ★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 1.0.3
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 42
【在 h*****9 的大作中提到】
: 美军只要不是战场当场被打死的，都属非战死亡，哪怕刚抬到后方医院马上就死，都算
: 意外。
:
: ★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 1.0.3
| p******o
发帖数: 9007 | 43 这个错误美国国防部犯了４０多年，这才是官方的数据。你贴的那些Ｔｉｍｅｓ顶个屁
用。
【在 r*****y 的大作中提到】
: 你承认这是个错误就好，问题是小将五毛不承认，试图证明5.4万是真实的美军朝鲜死
: 亡人数。
:
: outside
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 44 美国国防部犯了４０多年，
-------------------------------
证据？
两个数字一直都有，5.4万是全球美军死亡，3.6万是朝鲜战区死亡。
【在 p******o 的大作中提到】
: 这个错误美国国防部犯了４０多年，这才是官方的数据。你贴的那些Ｔｉｍｅｓ顶个屁
: 用。
| w********9
发帖数: 8613 | | r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 46 两个数字一直都有，5.4万是全球美军死亡，3.6万是朝鲜战区死亡。
【在 w********9 的大作中提到】
: 5万4竟然出现在另一个主题，让让它成为姊妹篇。
: http://www.mitbbs.com/mitbbs_article_t.php?board=Military&gid=4
| p******o
发帖数: 9007 | 47 The casualty toll had been reported as 54,246 until June 2000, when the
Pentagon acknowledged that a clerical ERROR had included deaths outside the
Korean War theater in the total.
【在 r*****y 的大作中提到】
: 美国国防部犯了４０多年，
: -------------------------------
: 证据？
: 两个数字一直都有，5.4万是全球美军死亡，3.6万是朝鲜战区死亡。
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 48 三无网文？国防部正式承认错误的证据呢？
the
【在 p******o 的大作中提到】
: The casualty toll had been reported as 54,246 until June 2000, when the
: Pentagon acknowledged that a clerical ERROR had included deaths outside the
: Korean War theater in the total.
| p******o
发帖数: 9007 | | r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 50 cnn不是撒谎成性吗？你咋知道国防部真的承认过错误？你得拿出国防部网站上的说法
来。
【在 p******o 的大作中提到】
: google都不会？
: http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/28/world/asia/korean-war-fast-facts/
| | | p******o
发帖数: 9007 | | r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | | p******o
发帖数: 9007 | 53 我对美国坚持这个错误的数据达４０多年之久感兴趣，同时对美国的可信度深表怀疑。
【在 r*****y 的大作中提到】
: 既然国防部都说5.4万是全球美军死亡人数，那么你是否认可国防部的这个说法呢？
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 54 没这回事，从停战到2000年，一直有3.6万死亡的战史和新闻报道。
【在 p******o 的大作中提到】
: 我对美国坚持这个错误的数据达４０多年之久感兴趣，同时对美国的可信度深表怀疑。
| p******o
发帖数: 9007 | 55 从国防部，到越战纪念碑，到CNN，洛杉矶时报，西雅图时报，华盛顿邮报的报道来看5
万4这个数据更为正式和为大众接受。比如华盛顿邮报的论述
President Clinton and veterans from across the nation will gather in somber
remembrance this afternoon at the Korean War Veterans Memorial, where it is
carved into stone that 54,246 Americans died in the war that began 50 years
ago today.
For decades, the number has been enshrined in almanacs, histories, memories
and monuments, cited as proof of the war's cost.
【在 r*****y 的大作中提到】
: 没这回事，从停战到2000年，一直有3.6万死亡的战史和新闻报道。
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 56 美军战史的数字一直都是3.6万，比如《朝鲜，我们第一次战败》
http://www.shuku.net:8080/novels/wars/cxwmdycsb/cxwmdycsb62.htm
美国在整个战争中的伤亡总数为139272人，尚不包括冻伤及其他受伤人数。
其 中有24965 名死亡，101368名负伤，另有12939 名失踪，估计已经死亡。南朝鲜共
损失272975人，其中有46182 名死亡，15972 名负伤，另有66436 名失踪。其他联 合
国军成员共损失14103 人，其中2597名属于死亡，9581名负伤，1925名失踪。共 产党
方面，据参谋长联席会议估计：北朝鲜620264人死伤总数中，有214899名死亡，
303685名负伤，101680名失踪。中国死伤总数909607人，其中401401名死亡，486995
名负伤，21211 名失踪。
因此在整个战争中，双方伤亡总数达到195.6 万人。北、南朝鲜共有200
多万 平民死亡。此外，南朝鲜大部分地区及实际上全部北朝鲜遭到巨大破坏，要想恢
复 需耗时数年。
朝鲜战争刚结束，美国时代杂志有下面初估数字，约38,000人死亡、失踪、被俘：
08/03/1953, Time Magazine, "At Last"
The war had cost the U.S. more than 140,000 casualties (some 25,000 dead,
102,000 wounded, 13,000 missing and captured), $22 billion.
过了半年，更详细的数字是死亡、失踪合计 33,635人。
01/11/1954, Time Magazine, "Presumed Dead"
Last week the U.S. added 3,656 names to its list of Korean war dead. All the
men —3,400 from the Army and 256 from the Air Force—had been classified "
missing in action" for at least a year, now are "presumed dead." Still
counted as missing: some 3,713 servicemen. New total of U.S. dead: 29,922.
再过一段日子，终于拍板定案成为33,629人，1960年代出版的书籍就是使用这个数字：
Robert Leckie, Conflict: The History of the Korean War, Avon Book: New York,
1962, 384 pages.
第331页，战斗死亡33,629，伤103,284。
David Rees, Korea: The Limited War, St. Martins: New York, 1964. 附录C:战斗
死亡33,629人。
同时期的新闻报导拿越战跟朝战比较，也是使用33,629人这个数字。
08/02/1963, Time Magazine, "A Place of 10 Million Words",
Winding past Pork Chop Hill, Heartbreak Ridge, Old Baldy and other blood-
drenched ground, the Military Demarcation Line runs for 151 miles across the
waist of Korea. It was drawn at a cost of 1,820,000 casualties, including
33,629 U.S. dead and 103,284 wounded.
05/14/1969, Time Magazine, "Nixon's Hard Choice in Vienam"
U.S. dead in Viet Nam now number 32,376, and the total is fast approaching
the Korean War figure of 33,629.
看5
somber
is
years
memories
【在 p******o 的大作中提到】
: 从国防部，到越战纪念碑，到CNN，洛杉矶时报，西雅图时报，华盛顿邮报的报道来看5
: 万4这个数据更为正式和为大众接受。比如华盛顿邮报的论述
: President Clinton and veterans from across the nation will gather in somber
: remembrance this afternoon at the Korean War Veterans Memorial, where it is
: carved into stone that 54,246 Americans died in the war that began 50 years
: ago today.
: For decades, the number has been enshrined in almanacs, histories, memories
: and monuments, cited as proof of the war's cost.
| w********9
发帖数: 8613 | 57 归纳篇...
5万4这个数字曾经深入人心。
1993年版的大英百科全书第6卷第963页仍然用那个数字：“The Korean War resulted
in the deaths of about ...; and about 54,000 Americans..."
1997年版的The World Book Encyclopedia在J-K卷的第384页用的是“54,246”
http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/28/world/asia/korean-war-fast-facts/
The casualty toll had been reported as 54,246 until June 2000, when the
Pentagon acknowledged that a clerical error had included deaths outside the
Korean War theater in the total.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-many-americans-died-in-korea/
June 5, 2000 - As the 50th anniversary of the start of the Korean War
approaches, one key statistic is being reclarified— the one detailing just
how many Americans were killed in the war.
For years after the war ended in 1953, the Pentagon published a figure of 54
,260. That combined the 33,643 "battle deaths" with 20,617 "other deaths."
But in 1989 the Pentagon began revising the totals because "other deaths"
included U.S. military deaths worldwide during the three years of the war,
rather than just those soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines who died in and
around the Korean peninsula.
In the 1994 version of its annual publication, Service and Casualties in
Major Wars and Conflicts, the Pentagon put Korean War battle deaths at 33,
652 and "other deaths" meaning deaths in the war zone from illness,
accidents and other non-battle causes at 3,262. That yields a total of 36,
914.
Today's official Pentagon figures are virtually the same: 33,651 battle
deaths and 3,262 other deaths.
Why, then, has the old figure of 54,000 deaths been used by the Department
of Defense 50th Anniversary of the Korean War Commemorative Committee in a
newsletter meant to highlight the war's history?
Maj. Bob White, the committee's historian, said Monday he had been using the
old 54,000 figure until he recently discovered that the Pentagon's casualty
statistics had been revised several years ago.
The higher figure also is engraved on the Korean War Veterans Memorial on
the National Mall in Washington apparently because the memorial's organizers
wanted to honor all military members who died during the period of the war,
not just those lost in Korea.
It might not be surprising that there would be confusion over Korean War
casualty figures. The Pentagon made its official revisions over a period of
several years, with little or no public explanation.
For several years in the early 1990s the "other deaths" figures were simply
listed as "not available," and so there was no official Defense Department
total combining battle deaths and other deaths.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2000-06-05/news/0006050034_1
WASHINGTON, D.C. — The Pentagon has revised downward the number of U.S.
soldiers who died in the 1950-53 Korean War, and said the "primary culprit"
for the error was an unnamed clerk, Time magazinereported Sunday.
The Pentagon cut the death toll from 54,246 to 36,940, Time said in its
current edition.
The higher toll was given after a bureaucrat mistakenly added all non-combat
deaths worldwide to the toll of combat deaths in Korea, Time reported. That
meant that the death toll was inflated by more than 17,000 for about a half
-century.
http://www.newson6.com/story/7674679/pentagon-knew-about-error-
WASHINGTON aPresident Clinton and veterans from across the nation will
gather in somber remembrance Sunday afternoon at the Korean War Veterans
Memorial, where it is carved into stone that 54,246 Americans died in the
war that began 50 years ago.
For decades, the number has been enshrined in histories, almanacs, monuments
and memories, reverently cited as proof of the war's cost. But nearly one-
third of those deaths a17,730 aoccurred elsewhere, often half a
world away from Korea. The actual number of Americans killed in the Korean
War theater of operations is 36,516, the Pentagon acknowledged this month.
"If you were walking down the street in Washington, D.C., and were hit by a
car, you'd be considered a casualty of the Korean War," said Burt Hagelin, a
Korean War veteran who helped uncover the historical mystery.
The error was blamed on an anonymous government clerk who in the 1950s
mistakenly added noncombat deaths worldwide to the total, and the correction
was credited to revised accounting procedures, according to brief news
accounts reporting the Pentagon's clarification. That is not the real story,
according to veterans and others who have been pushing for years to get the
numbers corrected.
Revised data available
"Fifty years later, they're trying to drop it all on one clerk," said
Richard Kolb, publisher of VFW Magazine, a Veterans of Foreign Wars
publication that has lobbied several times for the number to be corrected. "
They had the facts all along. Now they're acting like it's a new revelation."
Pentagon officials have known for years that the 54,000 figure is inflated
and believed before the memorial was dedicated in 1995 that engraving that
number in black granite would be misleading, according to interviews. But at
the insistence of the veterans committee that oversaw the memorial's
construction, the larger figure was used.
Far more than an arcane numbers game, the issue is deeply emotional to many
Korean War veterans, who see the lower, revised total as one more slap at
their oft-ignored sacrifices.
Vets cling to old number
Some veterans, tired of the conflict being slighted in favor of the Vietnam
War, say 54,000 remains an accurate tally because all those killed were part
of the general war effort, regardless of where they died. They are angry
that VFW Magazine and others have suggested changing the number engraved
along the memorial's Pool of Remembrance.
If the Vietnam Veterans Memorial included out-of-area deaths along with the
58,000-plus names engraved on the Wall, it would have to add the names of
more than 20,000 Americans who died in the United States and elsewhere from
1965 through 1975, according to a study cited by VFW Magazine.
Two Korean War veterans from Maine are responsible for bringing the issue to
the fore through years of prodding, Mr. Kolb said.
Mr. Hagelin, who was with the 2nd Infantry Division during the bloody
fighting for the outpost known as Old Baldy, read an article in the early
1990s that said the 54,000 Americans killed in the Korean War included 20,
000 nonbattle deaths.
"I couldn't believe it," said Mr. Hagelin, 69, a self-described "Maine farm
boy" in the town of Dover Foxcraft.
Mr. Hagelin started making inquiries at the Pentagon, asking to see
statistics on the nonbattle deaths, which usually stem from accidents,
training mishaps and disease.
But Mr. Hagelin obtained data after members of Maine's congressional
delegation applied pressure on his behalf. He teamed up with a former
soldier from Augusta, Marty O'Brien, who was independently investigating the
matter. "The numbers were all over the place," said Mr. O'Brien, 70, a 1st
Cavalry Division veteran.
Through the Freedom of Information Act, Mr. O'Brien obtained a microfiche
showing the Army's nonbattle deaths during the war, information the Army had
claimed did not exist.
Working together, Mr. Hagelin and Mr. O'Brien helped establish that most of
the 20,000 nonbattle deaths during the war occurred outside Korea.
The Pentagon published statistics in 1994 and subsequent years showing that
17,000 of the nonbattle deaths occurred elsewhere. About 2,800 of the
nonbattle deaths occurred in the theater. When that figure was added to the
33,600 killed in battle, the number of Americans who died in the war came to
fewer than 37,000.
Nonetheless, the Pentagon made no effort to publicize the new numbers, and
the 54,000 figure continued to be generally accepted.
54,000 number pervasive
The Pentagon's Korean War Commemorations Committee used the higher figure in
promotional bookmarks it published this year.
"The 54,000 number became so pervasive in the secondary literature that we
felt it not necessary to go to the primary sources," said Air Force Maj. Bob
White, the committee's historian.
Maj. White said he learned the figure was suspect from a military historian
who saw the bookmark.
The 54,000 figure dates to the war's end in 1953, reflecting about 33,600
killed in battle and 20,600 nonhostile deaths worldwide.
The total of 54,000 became the common reference for Korean War deaths. For
many Korean veterans, the fact that it is close to the 58,000 killed in
Vietnam was significant.
The veterans' view won out as far as the monument was concerned. "Had it not
been for the Korean War, they would never have been drafted," said Bob
Hansen of the Korean War Veterans Memorial Advisory Board.
http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,997160,00.
A half-century after the Korean War, THE PENTAGON has just revised the
number of Americans killed in the conflict, from 54,246 to 36,940. It seems
that the higher figure--endorsed by the Encyclopaedia Britannica and
engraved on the five-year-old KOREAN WAR VETERANS MEMORIAL on the National
Mall in Washington--cropped up shortly after both sides declared a truce in
1953 and has been repeated, erroneously, ever since.
The "primary culprit" for the error was an anonymous government clerk, the
Pentagon says. The bureaucrat mistakenly added all nonbattlefield U.S.
military deaths--20,617--that occurred worldwide during the three-year
conflict to the more than 33,000 U.S.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB111937345541365397
A decade ago, the Department of Defense corrected an important point in U.S.
military history: about 36,000 American soldiers died in the Korean War,
not 54,000 as first thought. The revision was the result of new research,
conducted at the request of veterans.
Yet as the 55th anniversary of the war's beginning approaches, the larger,
incorrect figure can still be found in textbooks and newspapers, in recent
speeches from lawmakers and on war memorials -- demonstrating how bad
statistics can linger after they've been corrected.
The 54,000 figure included all soldiers who died during the war, anywhere in
the world, from any cause -- including about 18,000 heart attacks, suicides
, car accidents and other nonwar deaths during the war years. Some occurred
thousands of miles from the theater of war. In the mid-1990s, the Department
of Defense began to clarify the record, and that quiet change received
widespread publicity in 2000, on the 50th anniversary of the war.
But the higher number lives on today. Olympia J. Snowe, a Republican senator
from Maine, said in a press release last month, "Let there be no doubt --
the 54,000 Americans who perished on the Korean peninsula and in the
neighboring seas are to be honored and exalted in our time -- and for all
time." (A spokesman for Sen. Snowe declined to comment when I contacted her
office.) After spotting the news coverage about the numerical error,
Encyclopedia Britannica corrected its online entry a few years ago and in
print in 2003, senior editor Robert Curley told me. World Book also uses the
lower figure, a spokeswoman told me. But Wikipedia, a popular user-edited
online encyclopedia, carried the 54,000 figure as of Wednesday in its entry
on the war. Most newspaper articles mentioning the Korean War's death toll
now cite the lower figure or qualify the higher one. But the higher number
has cropped up dozens of times in the past five years, including articles in
the past month in the Gainsville, Ga., Times and Canada's CBC News, and a
Waco Tribune-Herald editorial.
Burt Hagelin and Marty O'Brien, two veterans from Sen. Snowe's state, led a
campaign to correct the historical record, which the Department of Defense
blames on a faulty counting methodology and, also, on a fire at the National
Personnel Records Center in St. Louis that destroyed many records and
delayed research. Their efforts led to the update by the government,
followed by articles in the Veterans of Foreign Wars' magazine and the
Washington Post leading up to the 50th anniversary of the start of the war -
- five years ago Saturday. (Numbers Guy reader Bob Haines noticed the shift
and suggested I look into it.)
There are several reasons the old number persists. One is that most books
aren't updated regularly like encyclopedias -- a search within books on
Amazon.com finds several that contain the 54,000 figure, including "The
Korean War: The Story and Photographs" and "The Coldest War: A Memoir of
Korea." Not all school textbooks have been updated yet, including several
from Pearson Prentice Hall. Pearson spokeswoman Wendy Spiegel told me "our
forthcoming texts will reflect the newest scholarship." Meanwhile, the
number 54,000 carries symbolic value for veteran's groups because it is
close to the roughly 58,000 American soldiers who died in Vietnam, and they
feel the Korean War is the "forgotten war" compared with Vietnam. (See the
Department of Defense's breakdown of casualties from the Korean War, the
Vietnam War and all U.S. wars.)
For Mr. Hagelin, who was a squad leader with the Second Infantry Division in
Korea, the truth about his own conflict is paramount. "It's our war," Mr.
Hagelin, now 74 years old and living in Dover Foxcroft, Maine, told me. "Let
's get the records straight." | r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 58 朝鲜战争刚结束，美国时代杂志有下面初估数字，约38,000人死亡、失踪、被俘：
08/03/1953, Time Magazine, "At Last"
The war had cost the U.S. more than 140,000 casualties (some 25,000 dead,
102,000 wounded, 13,000 missing and captured), $22 billion.
过了半年，更详细的数字是死亡、失踪合计 33,635人。
01/11/1954, Time Magazine, "Presumed Dead"
Last week the U.S. added 3,656 names to its list of Korean war dead. All
the
men —3,400 from the Army and 256 from the Air Force—had been classified "
missing in action" for at least a year, now are "presumed dead." Still
counted as missing: some 3,713 servicemen. New total of U.S. dead: 29,922.
再过一段日子，终于拍板定案成为33,629人，1960年代出版的书籍就是使用这个数字：
Robert Leckie, Conflict: The History of the Korean War, Avon Book: New York,
1962, 384 pages.
第331页，战斗死亡33,629，伤103,284。
David Rees, Korea: The Limited War, St. Martins: New York, 1964. 附录C:战斗
死亡33,629人。
同时期的新闻报导拿越战跟朝战比较，也是使用33,629人这个数字。
08/02/1963, Time Magazine, "A Place of 10 Million Words",
Winding past Pork Chop Hill, Heartbreak Ridge, Old Baldy and other blood-
drenched ground, the Military Demarcation Line runs for 151 miles across
the
waist of Korea. It was drawn at a cost of 1,820,000 casualties, including
33,629 U.S. dead and 103,284 wounded.
05/14/1969, Time Magazine, "Nixon's Hard Choice in Vienam"
U.S. dead in Viet Nam now number 32,376, and the total is fast approaching
the Korean War figure of 33,629.
resulted
the
【在 w********9 的大作中提到】
: 归纳篇...
: 5万4这个数字曾经深入人心。
: 1993年版的大英百科全书第6卷第963页仍然用那个数字：“The Korean War resulted
: in the deaths of about ...; and about 54,000 Americans..."
: 1997年版的The World Book Encyclopedia在J-K卷的第384页用的是“54,246”
: http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/28/world/asia/korean-war-fast-facts/
: The casualty toll had been reported as 54,246 until June 2000, when the
: Pentagon acknowledged that a clerical error had included deaths outside the
: Korean War theater in the total.
: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-many-americans-died-in-korea/
| p******o
发帖数: 9007 | 59 复读机就省省吧。这战史谁都能写，又不是官方的，哪怕他写了美军阵亡１００万，写
了也就写了。
人数。
共
鲜共有200
【在 r*****y 的大作中提到】
: 美军战史的数字一直都是3.6万，比如《朝鲜，我们第一次战败》
: http://www.shuku.net:8080/novels/wars/cxwmdycsb/cxwmdycsb62.htm
: 美国在整个战争中的伤亡总数为139272人，尚不包括冻伤及其他受伤人数。
: 其 中有24965 名死亡，101368名负伤，另有12939 名失踪，估计已经死亡。南朝鲜共
: 损失272975人，其中有46182 名死亡，15972 名负伤，另有66436 名失踪。其他联 合
: 国军成员共损失14103 人，其中2597名属于死亡，9581名负伤，1925名失踪。共 产党
: 方面，据参谋长联席会议估计：北朝鲜620264人死伤总数中，有214899名死亡，
: 303685名负伤，101680名失踪。中国死伤总数909607人，其中401401名死亡，486995
: 名负伤，21211 名失踪。
: 因此在整个战争中，双方伤亡总数达到195.6 万人。北、南朝鲜共有200
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 60 战史是要根据原始档案资料写的，你找个美军阵亡100万的战史出来看看？
【在 p******o 的大作中提到】
: 复读机就省省吧。这战史谁都能写，又不是官方的，哪怕他写了美军阵亡１００万，写
: 了也就写了。
:
: 人数。
: 共
: 鲜共有200
| | | w********9
发帖数: 8613 | 61 关于这些数据的追究已经比较彻底了。
最早就没有36000-37000的死亡数字，死缠硬搅的离奇维只能找到最常见的33000多的数
字。
最初引起长期混乱的基本原因也是比较清楚的，下面的报道也有提及。最早公布的死亡
是先陈述了因敌对引起的死亡（died from hostile action）之类的数据，然后列出“
其它死亡”一类的数据作为韩战伤亡统计数据陈列的一部分。对此，长期的理解是那些
“其它死亡”与韩战有关。
5万4这个数字曾经深入人心。
1993年版的大英百科全书第6卷第963页仍然用那个数字：“The Korean War resulted
in the deaths of about ...; and about 54,000 Americans..."
1997年版的The World Book Encyclopedia在J-K卷的第384用的是“54,246”
http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/28/world/asia/korean-war-fast-facts/
The casualty toll had been reported as 54,246 until June 2000, when the
Pentagon acknowledged that a clerical error had included deaths outside the
Korean War theater in the total.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-many-americans-died-in-korea/
June 5, 2000 - As the 50th anniversary of the start of the Korean War
approaches, one key statistic is being reclarified— the one detailing just
how many Americans were killed in the war.
For years after the war ended in 1953, the Pentagon published a figure of 54
,260. That combined the 33,643 "battle deaths" with 20,617 "other deaths."
But in 1989 the Pentagon began revising the totals because "other deaths"
included U.S. military deaths worldwide during the three years of the war,
rather than just those soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines who died in and
around the Korean peninsula.
In the 1994 version of its annual publication, Service and Casualties in
Major Wars and Conflicts, the Pentagon put Korean War battle deaths at 33,
652 and "other deaths" meaning deaths in the war zone from illness,
accidents and other non-battle causes at 3,262. That yields a total of 36,
914.
Today's official Pentagon figures are virtually the same: 33,651 battle
deaths and 3,262 other deaths.
Why, then, has the old figure of 54,000 deaths been used by the Department
of Defense 50th Anniversary of the Korean War Commemorative Committee in a
newsletter meant to highlight the war's history?
Maj. Bob White, the committee's historian, said Monday he had been using the
old 54,000 figure until he recently discovered that the Pentagon's casualty
statistics had been revised several years ago.
The higher figure also is engraved on the Korean War Veterans Memorial on
the National Mall in Washington apparently because the memorial's organizers
wanted to honor all military members who died during the period of the war,
not just those lost in Korea.
It might not be surprising that there would be confusion over Korean War
casualty figures. The Pentagon made its official revisions over a period of
several years, with little or no public explanation.
For several years in the early 1990s the "other deaths" figures were simply
listed as "not available," and so there was no official Defense Department
total combining battle deaths and other deaths.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2000-06-05/news/0006050034_1
WASHINGTON, D.C. — The Pentagon has revised downward the number of U.S.
soldiers who died in the 1950-53 Korean War, and said the "primary culprit"
for the error was an unnamed clerk, Time magazinereported Sunday.
The Pentagon cut the death toll from 54,246 to 36,940, Time said in its
current edition.
The higher toll was given after a bureaucrat mistakenly added all non-combat
deaths worldwide to the toll of combat deaths in Korea, Time reported. That
meant that the death toll was inflated by more than 17,000 for about a half
-century.
http://www.newson6.com/story/7674679/pentagon-knew-about-error-
WASHINGTON aPresident Clinton and veterans from across the nation will
gather in somber remembrance Sunday afternoon at the Korean War Veterans
Memorial, where it is carved into stone that 54,246 Americans died in the
war that began 50 years ago.
For decades, the number has been enshrined in histories, almanacs, monuments
and memories, reverently cited as proof of the war's cost. But nearly one-
third of those deaths a17,730 aoccurred elsewhere, often half a
world away from Korea. The actual number of Americans killed in the Korean
War theater of operations is 36,516, the Pentagon acknowledged this month.
"If you were walking down the street in Washington, D.C., and were hit by a
car, you'd be considered a casualty of the Korean War," said Burt Hagelin, a
Korean War veteran who helped uncover the historical mystery.
The error was blamed on an anonymous government clerk who in the 1950s
mistakenly added noncombat deaths worldwide to the total, and the correction
was credited to revised accounting procedures, according to brief news
accounts reporting the Pentagon's clarification. That is not the real story,
according to veterans and others who have been pushing for years to get the
numbers corrected.
Revised data available
"Fifty years later, they're trying to drop it all on one clerk," said
Richard Kolb, publisher of VFW Magazine, a Veterans of Foreign Wars
publication that has lobbied several times for the number to be corrected. "
They had the facts all along. Now they're acting like it's a new revelation."
Pentagon officials have known for years that the 54,000 figure is inflated
and believed before the memorial was dedicated in 1995 that engraving that
number in black granite would be misleading, according to interviews. But at
the insistence of the veterans committee that oversaw the memorial's
construction, the larger figure was used.
Far more than an arcane numbers game, the issue is deeply emotional to many
Korean War veterans, who see the lower, revised total as one more slap at
their oft-ignored sacrifices.
Vets cling to old number
Some veterans, tired of the conflict being slighted in favor of the Vietnam
War, say 54,000 remains an accurate tally because all those killed were part
of the general war effort, regardless of where they died. They are angry
that VFW Magazine and others have suggested changing the number engraved
along the memorial's Pool of Remembrance.
If the Vietnam Veterans Memorial included out-of-area deaths along with the
58,000-plus names engraved on the Wall, it would have to add the names of
more than 20,000 Americans who died in the United States and elsewhere from
1965 through 1975, according to a study cited by VFW Magazine.
Two Korean War veterans from Maine are responsible for bringing the issue to
the fore through years of prodding, Mr. Kolb said.
Mr. Hagelin, who was with the 2nd Infantry Division during the bloody
fighting for the outpost known as Old Baldy, read an article in the early
1990s that said the 54,000 Americans killed in the Korean War included 20,
000 nonbattle deaths.
"I couldn't believe it," said Mr. Hagelin, 69, a self-described "Maine farm
boy" in the town of Dover Foxcraft.
Mr. Hagelin started making inquiries at the Pentagon, asking to see
statistics on the nonbattle deaths, which usually stem from accidents,
training mishaps and disease.
But Mr. Hagelin obtained data after members of Maine's congressional
delegation applied pressure on his behalf. He teamed up with a former
soldier from Augusta, Marty O'Brien, who was independently investigating the
matter. "The numbers were all over the place," said Mr. O'Brien, 70, a 1st
Cavalry Division veteran.
Through the Freedom of Information Act, Mr. O'Brien obtained a microfiche
showing the Army's nonbattle deaths during the war, information the Army had
claimed did not exist.
Working together, Mr. Hagelin and Mr. O'Brien helped establish that most of
the 20,000 nonbattle deaths during the war occurred outside Korea.
The Pentagon published statistics in 1994 and subsequent years showing that
17,000 of the nonbattle deaths occurred elsewhere. About 2,800 of the
nonbattle deaths occurred in the theater. When that figure was added to the
33,600 killed in battle, the number of Americans who died in the war came to
fewer than 37,000.
Nonetheless, the Pentagon made no effort to publicize the new numbers, and
the 54,000 figure continued to be generally accepted.
54,000 number pervasive
The Pentagon's Korean War Commemorations Committee used the higher figure in
promotional bookmarks it published this year.
"The 54,000 number became so pervasive in the secondary literature that we
felt it not necessary to go to the primary sources," said Air Force Maj. Bob
White, the committee's historian.
Maj. White said he learned the figure was suspect from a military historian
who saw the bookmark.
The 54,000 figure dates to the war's end in 1953, reflecting about 33,600
killed in battle and 20,600 nonhostile deaths worldwide.
The total of 54,000 became the common reference for Korean War deaths. For
many Korean veterans, the fact that it is close to the 58,000 killed in
Vietnam was significant.
The veterans' view won out as far as the monument was concerned. "Had it not
been for the Korean War, they would never have been drafted," said Bob
Hansen of the Korean War Veterans Memorial Advisory Board.
http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,997160,00.
A half-century after the Korean War, THE PENTAGON has just revised the
number of Americans killed in the conflict, from 54,246 to 36,940. It seems
that the higher figure--endorsed by the Encyclopaedia Britannica and
engraved on the five-year-old KOREAN WAR VETERANS MEMORIAL on the National
Mall in Washington--cropped up shortly after both sides declared a truce in
1953 and has been repeated, erroneously, ever since.
The "primary culprit" for the error was an anonymous government clerk, the
Pentagon says. The bureaucrat mistakenly added all nonbattlefield U.S.
military deaths--20,617--that occurred worldwide during the three-year
conflict to the more than 33,000 U.S.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB111937345541365397
A decade ago, the Department of Defense corrected an important point in U.S.
military history: about 36,000 American soldiers died in the Korean War,
not 54,000 as first thought. The revision was the result of new research,
conducted at the request of veterans.
Yet as the 55th anniversary of the war's beginning approaches, the larger,
incorrect figure can still be found in textbooks and newspapers, in recent
speeches from lawmakers and on war memorials -- demonstrating how bad
statistics can linger after they've been corrected.
The 54,000 figure included all soldiers who died during the war, anywhere in
the world, from any cause -- including about 18,000 heart attacks, suicides
, car accidents and other nonwar deaths during the war years. Some occurred
thousands of miles from the theater of war. In the mid-1990s, the Department
of Defense began to clarify the record, and that quiet change received
widespread publicity in 2000, on the 50th anniversary of the war.
But the higher number lives on today. Olympia J. Snowe, a Republican senator
from Maine, said in a press release last month, "Let there be no doubt --
the 54,000 Americans who perished on the Korean peninsula and in the
neighboring seas are to be honored and exalted in our time -- and for all
time." (A spokesman for Sen. Snowe declined to comment when I contacted her
office.) After spotting the news coverage about the numerical error,
Encyclopedia Britannica corrected its online entry a few years ago and in
print in 2003, senior editor Robert Curley told me. World Book also uses the
lower figure, a spokeswoman told me. But Wikipedia, a popular user-edited
online encyclopedia, carried the 54,000 figure as of Wednesday in its entry
on the war. Most newspaper articles mentioning the Korean War's death toll
now cite the lower figure or qualify the higher one. But the higher number
has cropped up dozens of times in the past five years, including articles in
the past month in the Gainsville, Ga., Times and Canada's CBC News, and a
Waco Tribune-Herald editorial.
Burt Hagelin and Marty O'Brien, two veterans from Sen. Snowe's state, led a
campaign to correct the historical record, which the Department of Defense
blames on a faulty counting methodology and, also, on a fire at the National
Personnel Records Center in St. Louis that destroyed many records and
delayed research. Their efforts led to the update by the government,
followed by articles in the Veterans of Foreign Wars' magazine and the
Washington Post leading up to the 50th anniversary of the start of the war -
- five years ago Saturday. (Numbers Guy reader Bob Haines noticed the shift
and suggested I look into it.)
There are several reasons the old number persists. One is that most books
aren't updated regularly like encyclopedias -- a search within books on
Amazon.com finds several that contain the 54,000 figure, including "The
Korean War: The Story and Photographs" and "The Coldest War: A Memoir of
Korea." Not all school textbooks have been updated yet, including several
from Pearson Prentice Hall. Pearson spokeswoman Wendy Spiegel told me "our
forthcoming texts will reflect the newest scholarship." Meanwhile, the
number 54,000 carries symbolic value for veteran's groups because it is
close to the roughly 58,000 American soldiers who died in Vietnam, and they
feel the Korean War is the "forgotten war" compared with Vietnam. (See the
Department of Defense's breakdown of casualties from the Korean War, the
Vietnam War and all U.S. wars.)
For Mr. Hagelin, who was a squad leader with the Second Infantry Division in
Korea, the truth about his own conflict is paramount. "It's our war," Mr.
Hagelin, now 74 years old and living in Dover Foxcroft, Maine, told me. "Let
's get the records straight." | w********9
发帖数: 8613 | 62
resulted
“Why, then, has the old figure of 54,000 deaths been used by the Department
of Defense 50th Anniversary of the Korean War Commemorative Committee in a
newsletter meant to highlight the war's history?
Maj. Bob White, the committee's historian, said Monday he had been using the
old 54,000 figure until he recently discovered that the Pentagon's casualty
statistics had been revised several years ago. ”
【在 w********9 的大作中提到】
: 关于这些数据的追究已经比较彻底了。
: 最早就没有36000-37000的死亡数字，死缠硬搅的离奇维只能找到最常见的33000多的数
: 字。
: 最初引起长期混乱的基本原因也是比较清楚的，下面的报道也有提及。最早公布的死亡
: 是先陈述了因敌对引起的死亡（died from hostile action）之类的数据，然后列出“
: 其它死亡”一类的数据作为韩战伤亡统计数据陈列的一部分。对此，长期的理解是那些
: “其它死亡”与韩战有关。
: 5万4这个数字曾经深入人心。
: 1993年版的大英百科全书第6卷第963页仍然用那个数字：“The Korean War resulted
: in the deaths of about ...; and about 54,000 Americans..."
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 63 33000是战斗死亡，但是发生在朝鲜的非战斗死亡能有2万这么多？所以这已经证明了5.
4万是全球美军死亡而不是朝鲜死亡。
resulted
【在 w********9 的大作中提到】
: 关于这些数据的追究已经比较彻底了。
: 最早就没有36000-37000的死亡数字，死缠硬搅的离奇维只能找到最常见的33000多的数
: 字。
: 最初引起长期混乱的基本原因也是比较清楚的，下面的报道也有提及。最早公布的死亡
: 是先陈述了因敌对引起的死亡（died from hostile action）之类的数据，然后列出“
: 其它死亡”一类的数据作为韩战伤亡统计数据陈列的一部分。对此，长期的理解是那些
: “其它死亡”与韩战有关。
: 5万4这个数字曾经深入人心。
: 1993年版的大英百科全书第6卷第963页仍然用那个数字：“The Korean War resulted
: in the deaths of about ...; and about 54,000 Americans..."
| w********9
发帖数: 8613 | 64 大概是怎么回事，读者自己会去解读。也没什么好辩的。就为某个/某些小题目，离奇
维可以很可能会去热烈争论5年以上。 | r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 65 事实就是美国对3.6万和5.4万的数字有很好的解释，中国对志愿军死亡人数从11万到19
万都没有很清楚公开的解释。
【在 w********9 的大作中提到】
: 大概是怎么回事，读者自己会去解读。也没什么好辩的。就为某个/某些小题目，离奇
: 维可以很可能会去热烈争论5年以上。
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 66 还有美军阵亡的５万４，名字都是刻在朝鲜战争纪念碑上。
---------------------------------------
证据？
【 在 pokerpro (专业的) 的大作中提到: 】 | p******o
发帖数: 9007 | 67 这个我收回。
【在 r*****y 的大作中提到】
: 还有美军阵亡的５万４，名字都是刻在朝鲜战争纪念碑上。
: ---------------------------------------
: 证据？
: 【 在 pokerpro (专业的) 的大作中提到: 】
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 68 承认你在胡扯就好
【在 p******o 的大作中提到】
: 这个我收回。
| a*******o
发帖数: 290 | 69 其实美军一个都没有死，都还活在李奇微的心里呢
【在 w********9 的大作中提到】
: 大概是怎么回事，读者自己会去解读。也没什么好辩的。就为某个/某些小题目，离奇
: 维可以很可能会去热烈争论5年以上。
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 70 全球美军死亡5.4万，其中死于朝鲜战争的3.6万。
【在 a*******o 的大作中提到】
: 其实美军一个都没有死，都还活在李奇微的心里呢
| | | p******o
发帖数: 9007 | 71 我就收回这一点，其它观点和论证我都坚持。我们还等着看你的ABMC的回信呢。
【在 r*****y 的大作中提到】
: 承认你在胡扯就好
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 72 不是早就告诉你找不到了吗？你要真想知道，大可以自己写信去问，然后把回信公布在
这里。
【在 p******o 的大作中提到】
: 我就收回这一点，其它观点和论证我都坚持。我们还等着看你的ABMC的回信呢。
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 73 你承认你在胡扯就好
【在 p******o 的大作中提到】
: 我就收回这一点，其它观点和论证我都坚持。我们还等着看你的ABMC的回信呢。
| p******o
发帖数: 9007 | 74 我就关心你这大言不惭地说人家回信却拿不出来。
【在 r*****y 的大作中提到】
: 不是早就告诉你找不到了吗？你要真想知道，大可以自己写信去问，然后把回信公布在
: 这里。
| L**W
发帖数: 2277 | 75 稍有常识的人就知道美海空军在不打仗的时间地点可能死那么多人？
【在 r*****y 的大作中提到】
: 5.4万是战争期间全球美军死亡数字，其中包括7000空军和近5000海军，稍有常识的人
: 就知道美海空军不可能在朝鲜战争中死那么多人。
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 76 当然有可能，二战时在美国本土没有打仗美军就损失了一万多架飞机死亡了一万多人。
【在 L**W 的大作中提到】
: 稍有常识的人就知道美海空军在不打仗的时间地点可能死那么多人？
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 77 十年前的信，你还有保存吗？事实是你胡说八道自己都不得不承认。
【在 p******o 的大作中提到】
: 我就关心你这大言不惭地说人家回信却拿不出来。
| L**W
发帖数: 2277 | 78 那在朝鲜被干了7000空军和近5000海军就更有可能了
【在 r*****y 的大作中提到】
: 当然有可能，二战时在美国本土没有打仗美军就损失了一万多架飞机死亡了一万多人。
| r*****y
发帖数: 53800 | 79 不可能，中朝没这个能力。
【在 L**W 的大作中提到】
: 那在朝鲜被干了7000空军和近5000海军就更有可能了
| m**********g
发帖数: 919 | 80 你自己不做Research那你活该被人玩啊。美军韩战的数字从来都是54000和33000并存。
压根不存在篡改一说。54000是全球同期（其实是4年）死亡人数。33000是战区死亡人
数。因为之前都是全面战争，所以都是统计全死亡。
二战挂的40万里还有10万的非战斗死亡。4年里非战斗死2万有什么大惊小怪的？
5毛每次发这种贴就是耍自己的智商有多低。
【在 w********9 的大作中提到】
: 大概是怎么回事，读者自己会去解读。也没什么好辩的。就为某个/某些小题目，离奇
: 维可以很可能会去热烈争论5年以上。
| | | m**********g
发帖数: 919 | 81 5毛的常识还不如厕所里的草纸有用。二战美军参战不到4年就有10万左右的非战斗死亡
。韩战的死亡统计到1954年，挂个2万算跟毛啊?
【在 L**W 的大作中提到】
: 稍有常识的人就知道美海空军在不打仗的时间地点可能死那么多人？
| h*****9
发帖数: 4028 | 82 哈哈，李将军每天都在膜拜。
★ 发自iPhone App: ChineseWeb 1.0.3
【在 a*******o 的大作中提到】
: 其实美军一个都没有死，都还活在李奇微的心里呢
|
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