l****a
发帖数: 272 | 1 问个非主流问题,
有朋友跟我谈起转移阻击叫, 就是3D开叫表示H 套(或者S 套,类似的设计).
我说我不懂, 但是我不妨自己琢磨一下它的利弊.
使用的人应该不是很多, 也许是受到规则的限制, 反正肯定是非主流了.
想听听这里朋友们的想法.
我英文不好, 请用中文回复. | v**********e
发帖数: 1295 | 2 好处一是可以旋转庄位，二是可以把好牌和差牌的阻击分开，尤其对于高花。缺点在于
低花阻击的精确性就要下降了,还要以多义性的叫品与之相配合。
使用上来说，如果是明确指示出套所在的i.e.3D=H preempt，应该不算是brown
sticker。
3D=H or S preempt 就是 brown sticker.
【在 l****a 的大作中提到】
: 问个非主流问题,
: 有朋友跟我谈起转移阻击叫, 就是3D开叫表示H 套(或者S 套,类似的设计).
: 我说我不懂, 但是我不妨自己琢磨一下它的利弊.
: 使用的人应该不是很多, 也许是受到规则的限制, 反正肯定是非主流了.
: 想听听这里朋友们的想法.
: 我英文不好, 请用中文回复.
| b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 3 如果只是简单地用３Ｄ表示红心阻击，３Ｈ表示黑桃阻击，其实意义不大。把庄位对换
也仅仅可能制造一些swing而已，没有特别的技术上的优势。
我所知道的“转移阻击”有两种。一种是所谓的"2-under"，比方用３Ｃ表示红心套，
３Ｄ表示黑桃阻击，离实际花色差两个叫品。应叫方可以用first step询问，开叫方用
second step示弱，这样仍能停在三阶高花。这个设计主要是为了允许拿特别破的牌／
套作一些 aggressive preempts.
还有一种是multi-color的变种。比方说：
３Ｃ＝方块的阻击，或是单套红心强牌，或是双高花好牌，或是双低花好牌
３Ｄ＝红心的阻击，或是单套黑桃强牌，或是红心加一低花
３Ｈ＝黑桃的阻击，或是黑桃加一低花的强牌
2-under是mid-chart，在A/X或是open的比赛中一般可以用。Multi-color应该是brown-
sticker.
Ron Anderson 有本书叫做 Preempts from A to Z，对转移阻击叫（以及防守手段）有
不错的介绍。 | b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 4 Actually, 3D=H or S preempt may not be brown sticker, it is allowed in ACBL
superchart.
【在 v**********e 的大作中提到】
: 好处一是可以旋转庄位，二是可以把好牌和差牌的阻击分开，尤其对于高花。缺点在于
: 低花阻击的精确性就要下降了,还要以多义性的叫品与之相配合。
: 使用上来说，如果是明确指示出套所在的i.e.3D=H preempt，应该不算是brown
: sticker。
: 3D=H or S preempt 就是 brown sticker.
| l****a
发帖数: 272 | 5 写的好, bucky 总是言简意赅.
我想到的优点,
1, 转换庄位, 特别是有时候低花去摸3nt, 庄位就尤其重要了.
2, 还有 2-under 里面的 first step 询问, 这个也提供了额外的空间和手段.
还有一个, 算不上理论上的优点, 就是假如我开叫3D, 对方X, 如果对方没有
事先有所准备, 这个X 容易在对方两人之间造成误会.
当然, 这么做有点胜之不武了
缺点,
1，给对方提供了一个扣叫示强的机会
2，毕竟, 约定叫复杂了, 增大了记忆量, 约定叫模糊了, 偶尔会有误会.
PS: 昨天在BBO 上看到的一副牌,
开叫人 2D (多义,一般是弱高花), 应叫人拿着 AKJxxx 6 张S,
死也想不到开叫人是Q 7张S, 首攻 SA, 被庄家一吃一垫.
误会总是难免的. | b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 6 如果是ACBL的比赛，你打转移阻击的话必须提供对手一套防守资料，对方造成误会的机
会不大。:-)
如果是2-under的话确实还是有不少使用价值的，当然你要充分利用这个体系，尽量多
阻击对手。如果只是1-under的话似乎不划算，徒然给对方增加防守的手段和空间。至
于庄位，其实没那么重要，正常阻击开叫，应叫方仍然可以摸3NT。 | v**********e
发帖数: 1295 | 7 举两套例子
(2NT=C PRE)
3C=D PRE
3D=H PRE
3H=S PRE
3S=Gambling 3NT
好处主要是庄位，特别是拼搏性3NT的庄位。
3C=C or D PRE
3D=decent PRE for H or S
3H=bad PRE
3S=bad PRE
好处是高花套的阻击可将建设性和非建设性分开。
坏处都是牺牲低花阻击的精确性或者占用2NT作阻击。
【在 l****a 的大作中提到】
: 写的好, bucky 总是言简意赅.
: 我想到的优点,
: 1, 转换庄位, 特别是有时候低花去摸3nt, 庄位就尤其重要了.
: 2, 还有 2-under 里面的 first step 询问, 这个也提供了额外的空间和手段.
: 还有一个, 算不上理论上的优点, 就是假如我开叫3D, 对方X, 如果对方没有
: 事先有所准备, 这个X 容易在对方两人之间造成误会.
: 当然, 这么做有点胜之不武了
: 缺点,
: 1，给对方提供了一个扣叫示强的机会
: 2，毕竟, 约定叫复杂了, 增大了记忆量, 约定叫模糊了, 偶尔会有误会.
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 8 转移阻击已经是被实践证实是非常差的约定。主要的原因是防守起来太方便，有太多方
式显示各种持牌类型。
比如直接扣叫显示双套，直接的加倍显示不怎么合格的弱takeout加倍，比如Axxx KQxx
xxx Ax， 假设对方开自然３D，你加倍如果同伴叫４C你可以遭受一个巨大的罚分。但
是如果对方开３C来转移，你依然加倍，同伴拿C可以罚放，对方基本很难让开叫人打３
C加倍。这样一来，你就可以免费显示牌的类型而不用受到惩罚。或者同伴拿３－３－
４－３牌型，不太好的牌，也可以pass３C，反正开叫方也很难放打３Cx。
再有就是有些处理可以明确的显示倾向于惩罚的牌。比如
Axxx Axx KQJx Kx， 如果直接来３D， 你就叫３NT了，但是３C转移的话你可以pass然
后对方叫３D的时候加倍，表达惩罚愿望的均型牌。
由于有那么多弱点，基本没有任何顶尖牌手用这个约定。
【在 l****a 的大作中提到】
: 问个非主流问题,
: 有朋友跟我谈起转移阻击叫, 就是3D开叫表示H 套(或者S 套,类似的设计).
: 我说我不懂, 但是我不妨自己琢磨一下它的利弊.
: 使用的人应该不是很多, 也许是受到规则的限制, 反正肯定是非主流了.
: 想听听这里朋友们的想法.
: 我英文不好, 请用中文回复.
| v**********e
发帖数: 1295 | 9 按照BS的定义，有明显4+套的不是BS。多义2D是个例外，3D也被例外了？
ACBL
【在 b***y 的大作中提到】
: Actually, 3D=H or S preempt may not be brown sticker, it is allowed in ACBL
: superchart.
| v**********e
发帖数: 1295 | 10 这个也不好说，至少百幕大四强八强的队伍中还是有人用的。可以试试，主要比的还是
后续进程的理解和讨论。
KQxx
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: 转移阻击已经是被实践证实是非常差的约定。主要的原因是防守起来太方便，有太多方
: 式显示各种持牌类型。
: 比如直接扣叫显示双套，直接的加倍显示不怎么合格的弱takeout加倍，比如Axxx KQxx
: xxx Ax， 假设对方开自然３D，你加倍如果同伴叫４C你可以遭受一个巨大的罚分。但
: 是如果对方开３C来转移，你依然加倍，同伴拿C可以罚放，对方基本很难让开叫人打３
: C加倍。这样一来，你就可以免费显示牌的类型而不用受到惩罚。或者同伴拿３－３－
: ４－３牌型，不太好的牌，也可以pass３C，反正开叫方也很难放打３Cx。
: 再有就是有些处理可以明确的显示倾向于惩罚的牌。比如
: Axxx Axx KQJx Kx， 如果直接来３D， 你就叫３NT了，但是３C转移的话你可以pass然
: 后对方叫３D的时候加倍，表达惩罚愿望的均型牌。
| | | b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 11 你可以去看一下ACBL的Superchart。Superchart要求至少连打１２副牌的时候才能用，
所以双人赛不可以，但在 Vencerbilt/Spingold 等都是允许的。要求是所显示的套必
须只有两种可能（比方红心或黑桃）。
【在 v**********e 的大作中提到】
: 按照BS的定义，有明显4+套的不是BS。多义2D是个例外，3D也被例外了？
:
: ACBL
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 12 This logic is bizarre. One should play some certain conventions or systems
because it is good to handle a certain type of hands or to create a lot of
problems for opps, not because some pairs in a top 8 bermuda bowl finished
team play this convention. If this convention is intrinsically worse than
standard treatment like this one (because it makes the opp's defense much
easier), one should not play it at all.
【在 v**********e 的大作中提到】
: 这个也不好说，至少百幕大四强八强的队伍中还是有人用的。可以试试，主要比的还是
: 后续进程的理解和讨论。
:
: KQxx
| l****a
发帖数: 272 | | b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 14 What you said was true, one should not purposely choose a bad convention to
play. However, the fact that some pairs in world championship choose to play
this convention, it opens the possibility that they may know something that
you don't, there may be some merit in this convention that you overlooked.
Or maybe this convention incorporates well with their specific system.
Rather than assuming the top-8 pair had brain failure and dismissing the
convention as total stupidity, it may be worthwhile to figure out why they
chose this seemingly inferior treatment.
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: This logic is bizarre. One should play some certain conventions or systems
: because it is good to handle a certain type of hands or to create a lot of
: problems for opps, not because some pairs in a top 8 bermuda bowl finished
: team play this convention. If this convention is intrinsically worse than
: standard treatment like this one (because it makes the opp's defense much
: easier), one should not play it at all.
| v**********e
发帖数: 1295 | 15 百幕大有人用至少说明有人认为值得使用，人家再怎么说吃这碗饭的...
对于一个体系的阻击叫系统，变化较多的是2D和2NT,其它叫品的设置一般是配合这两个
叫品来设置的。有时候三阶低花可以用二阶叫品来帮助表达，自然就留出转移叫的空间
来区分好的阻击和差的阻击,这对于使用范围较大的阻击叫很有帮助。
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: This logic is bizarre. One should play some certain conventions or systems
: because it is good to handle a certain type of hands or to create a lot of
: problems for opps, not because some pairs in a top 8 bermuda bowl finished
: team play this convention. If this convention is intrinsically worse than
: standard treatment like this one (because it makes the opp's defense much
: easier), one should not play it at all.
| b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 16 Google translation:
你说的是真实的，不应该刻意选择一个坏的公约发挥。然而，一些世界冠军对选择的事
实，即发挥本公约，它开启了可能性，他们可能知道一些不这样做，有可能被你忽略了
一些本公约的优点。或者，也许本公约的集成以及与他们的具体制度。而不是假设顶级
8对大脑失败驳回总愚蠢的公约，它可能是值得弄清楚他们为什么选择了这个看似劣势
的治疗。
这种逻辑是奇怪的。一是要发挥一些某些公约或制度因为它是很好的处理某种类型的手
创造了很多OPPS问题，而不是因为在百慕大杯前8对完成队出战本公约。如果本公约在
本质上是比像这样的标准治疗（因为它使OPP的国防更容易），应该没有发挥它在所有
。
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: This logic is bizarre. One should play some certain conventions or systems
: because it is good to handle a certain type of hands or to create a lot of
: problems for opps, not because some pairs in a top 8 bermuda bowl finished
: team play this convention. If this convention is intrinsically worse than
: standard treatment like this one (because it makes the opp's defense much
: easier), one should not play it at all.
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 17 This logic is also bizarre. Players other than the top players have many
many holes in their systems. Some of them may not realize them at all. Some
of them may like to incorporate them just because they want to have a trade
off for some other hand types. Still, the transfer preemption is so bad that
you have to have a huge gain from somewhere else to make it really playable
(like the case for multi 2D, multi 2D is also rather bad, but it saves 2H/
2S for some other usages, which can be good (enough or not is an open
question) to compensate the disadvantage of multi 2D), which is highly
unlikely.
to
play
that
.
【在 b***y 的大作中提到】
: What you said was true, one should not purposely choose a bad convention to
: play. However, the fact that some pairs in world championship choose to play
: this convention, it opens the possibility that they may know something that
: you don't, there may be some merit in this convention that you overlooked.
: Or maybe this convention incorporates well with their specific system.
: Rather than assuming the top-8 pair had brain failure and dismissing the
: convention as total stupidity, it may be worthwhile to figure out why they
: chose this seemingly inferior treatment.
| l****a
发帖数: 272 | 18 纯技术的好理解, 我总是很难理解的是, 诸如
"one should ..."
"the best way is ..."
"... is rather bad ..."
这类口气
听上去, 只有一种方法才是对的, 是不是?
我不是针对谁, 只是针对这样的表达. | b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 19 这个似乎没太大必要去争了。我只是讲一个可能性，并不作结论说这个约定好还是坏。
既然世界比赛中有前八或前四名的选手在用，一般总是假设他们有他们的理由。也许他
们这么做是基于系统总体的配置，对我们不适用，但你不能假设人家是愚昧的，对于这
种约定叫的优劣没有基本概念。就算人家天资没你好，起码打了这么久的牌了，真要是
这个约定叫会带来很坏的后果，肯定早就被修理了。也许人家就根本不是最简单的那种
转移，里面还有一些你不了解的装置。你敢于表达自己的观点这很好，但是没深入研究
就下结论，这就太武断了，尤其是在你还没能证明自己水平更高的时候。就像你自己说
的，be polite to other ideas.
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: This logic is also bizarre. Players other than the top players have many
: many holes in their systems. Some of them may not realize them at all. Some
: of them may like to incorporate them just because they want to have a trade
: off for some other hand types. Still, the transfer preemption is so bad that
: you have to have a huge gain from somewhere else to make it really playable
: (like the case for multi 2D, multi 2D is also rather bad, but it saves 2H/
: 2S for some other usages, which can be good (enough or not is an open
: question) to compensate the disadvantage of multi 2D), which is highly
: unlikely.
:
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 20 Well, this is not a point invented by myself. I am only citing the comments
given by many strong players. Also, if you are really interested in bridge
itself, at least you should provide some bridge insights other than "good
players always have their reasons to play a bad convention", or "because
some good players play like that, so I adopt it". There have been quite a
few good discussions on this issue, and I doubt you may have read them.
Anyway, to me, the conclusion is known. Anyway, I don't want to argue too
much about things known and most arguments are not started from me.
【在 b***y 的大作中提到】
: 这个似乎没太大必要去争了。我只是讲一个可能性，并不作结论说这个约定好还是坏。
: 既然世界比赛中有前八或前四名的选手在用，一般总是假设他们有他们的理由。也许他
: 们这么做是基于系统总体的配置，对我们不适用，但你不能假设人家是愚昧的，对于这
: 种约定叫的优劣没有基本概念。就算人家天资没你好，起码打了这么久的牌了，真要是
: 这个约定叫会带来很坏的后果，肯定早就被修理了。也许人家就根本不是最简单的那种
: 转移，里面还有一些你不了解的装置。你敢于表达自己的观点这很好，但是没深入研究
: 就下结论，这就太武断了，尤其是在你还没能证明自己水平更高的时候。就像你自己说
: 的，be polite to other ideas.
| | | m****r
发帖数: 6639 | 21 you are citing comments by other strong players.
and they are using conventions used by other strong players.
what's the problem here?
comments
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: Well, this is not a point invented by myself. I am only citing the comments
: given by many strong players. Also, if you are really interested in bridge
: itself, at least you should provide some bridge insights other than "good
: players always have their reasons to play a bad convention", or "because
: some good players play like that, so I adopt it". There have been quite a
: few good discussions on this issue, and I doubt you may have read them.
: Anyway, to me, the conclusion is known. Anyway, I don't want to argue too
: much about things known and most arguments are not started from me.
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 22 I don't think they are using the transfer preempts at all. They just want to
debate for the sake of debate.
【在 m****r 的大作中提到】
: you are citing comments by other strong players.
: and they are using conventions used by other strong players.
: what's the problem here?
:
: comments
| m****r
发帖数: 6639 | 23 isn't that one of simple pleasures of life? doing something for the sake of
doing it? instead of doing something with an hidden motive?
to
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: I don't think they are using the transfer preempts at all. They just want to
: debate for the sake of debate.
| b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 24 No, I don't adopt a convention just because some good players like it. I
have to see the value myself. But if good players play a seemingly useless
convention, I will be intrigued enough to find out the reason behind.
【在 p***r 的大作中提到】
: Well, this is not a point invented by myself. I am only citing the comments
: given by many strong players. Also, if you are really interested in bridge
: itself, at least you should provide some bridge insights other than "good
: players always have their reasons to play a bad convention", or "because
: some good players play like that, so I adopt it". There have been quite a
: few good discussions on this issue, and I doubt you may have read them.
: Anyway, to me, the conclusion is known. Anyway, I don't want to argue too
: much about things known and most arguments are not started from me.
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 25 That's the nature of bridge bidding. There are many inventions every day.
Some players try them every day, even some pretty good players try them
every day. Some conventions are quite good and become popular, some are also
quite good before people find good defense against them, then nobody would
really use them regularly. Transfer preempts were quite popular ten years
ago and gradually died out in my observation.
【在 b***y 的大作中提到】
: No, I don't adopt a convention just because some good players like it. I
: have to see the value myself. But if good players play a seemingly useless
: convention, I will be intrigued enough to find out the reason behind.
| m****r
发帖数: 6639 | 26 i think your summary is rather bad, and incomplete.
【在 l****a 的大作中提到】
: 纯技术的好理解, 我总是很难理解的是, 诸如
: "one should ..."
: "the best way is ..."
: "... is rather bad ..."
: 这类口气
: 听上去, 只有一种方法才是对的, 是不是?
: 我不是针对谁, 只是针对这样的表达.
| b***y
发帖数: 2804 | 27 You are rather funny...
【在 m****r 的大作中提到】
: i think your summary is rather bad, and incomplete.
| l****a
发帖数: 272 | 28 you have rather brilliant sense of humor
【在 m****r 的大作中提到】
: i think your summary is rather bad, and incomplete.
| p***r
发帖数: 20570 | 29 In many areas, there are definitely best treatments in bridge bidding. Of
course, there can be better treatments in the future in that area.
Most bidding problems raised in this board have definitive answers, like the
transfer preempts.
【在 l****a 的大作中提到】
: 纯技术的好理解, 我总是很难理解的是, 诸如
: "one should ..."
: "the best way is ..."
: "... is rather bad ..."
: 这类口气
: 听上去, 只有一种方法才是对的, 是不是?
: 我不是针对谁, 只是针对这样的表达.
| m****r
发帖数: 6639 | 30 that's the difference between you and me!
【在 l****a 的大作中提到】
: you have rather brilliant sense of humor
| | | w****b
发帖数: 623 | 31 转移最大的好处是获得一个tempo，就是说，在你表达过牌情后，在不逼叫的基础上保
证再有一次叫牌。在阻击叫后，这个最大的好处显然毫无用处。
这里有两个次要的好处，一是庄位，一是可能打低的花色。但是这两点在这里都不是那
么关键。
有很多约定，即使在high level被运用，有很多情况，是因为有人想要实践而大部分对
手如果缺乏相当的理论素养，又没有准备过的话，会缺乏对策，而并非是其约定本身生
命力昂然所致。随着时间的流逝，这些约定也流逝了。比如现在还有几个人打曾经喧嚣
的弱开叫？
问个非主流问题,有朋友跟我谈起转移阻击叫, 就是3D开叫表示H 套(或者S 套,类似的
设计). 我说我不懂, 但是我不妨自己琢磨一下它的利弊.使用的人应该不是很多, 也许
是受到........
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【在 l****a 的大作中提到】
: you have rather brilliant sense of humor
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