B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 1 但是如果你是一个聪明的穷孩子，而且考上了 TJHSST 或者 Northside College Prep
， 那你上精英大学的几率几乎是百分之百！
http://www.npr.org/2013/01/09/168889785/elite-colleges-struggle
Elite Colleges Struggle To Recruit Smart, Low-Income Kids
by Shankar Vedantam
January 09, 2013 3:31 AM
Across the United States, college administrators are poring over student
essays, recommendation letters and SAT scores as they select a freshman
class for the fall.
If this is like most years, administrators at top schools such as Harvard
and Stanford will try hard to find talented high school students from poor
families in a push to increase the socioeconomic diversity on campus and to
counter the growing concern that highly selective colleges cater mainly to
students from privileged backgrounds.
Top schools often offer scholarships that not only include free tuition, but
also free room and board for top students from poor families — meaning it
can be less expensive for these students to attend Harvard than a state
school or a community college, says Caroline Hoxby, an economist at Stanford
who tracks these students.
Each year, however, colleges are confronted with a paradox: No matter how
many incentives they provide, enrollment of highly talented, low-income
students barely seems to budge.
After Harvard offered what was, in essence, a free college education to
students whose families earned under $40,000 a year, Hoxby says, "the number
of students whose families had income below that threshold changed by only
about 15 students, and the class at Harvard is about 1,650 freshmen."
Hoxby says some college administers had confided to her that they had
reluctantly come to the conclusion that the pool of low-income students with
top academic credentials was just limited, and there wasn't much they could
do to change that.
But in an analysis published with Christopher Avery in December, Hoxby has
shown that this conclusion isn't true. There is in fact a vast pool of
highly talented, low-income students; they just aren't ending up in top
schools.
Hoxby says in an interview that she asked herself why talented students
might escape the attention of college administrators, when the
administrators were looking so hard for these students.
"The students whom they see are the students who apply," she says, of
admissions officers. "And if a student doesn't apply to any selective
college or university, it's impossible for admissions staff to see that they
are out there."
Hoxby found that the majority of academically gifted low-income students
come from a handful of places in the country: About 70 percent of them come
from 15 large metropolitan areas. These areas often have highly regarded
public high schools, such as Stuyvesant in New York City or Thomas Jefferson
in the Washington, D.C., area.
Low-income high-achieving students at these schools have close to 100
percent odds of attending an Ivy League school or other highly selective
college, Hoxby says.
The reasons are straightforward: These schools boast top teachers and
immense resources. They have terrific guidance counselors. Highly selective
colleges send scouts to these schools to recruit top talent. And perhaps
most important, students in these schools are part of a peer group where
many others are also headed to highly selective colleges.
Hoxby and Avery found that top students who do not live in these major
metropolitan areas were significantly less likely to end up at a highly
selective school. These students were far less likely to find themselves in
a pipeline that ended at an Ivy League school.
"Imagine a student who is the only student who is a likely candidate for a
place like Harvard or Stanford or University of Chicago — and he's not just
the only student in his or her high school, but he's the only student that
that high school has graduated like that in, say, three or four years,"
Hoxby says.
Without mentors and academically talented peers, Hoxby says, many of these
students fail to apply to schools that can offer them a premium education
free of charge. And because the students are widely dispersed across the 42,
000 high schools in the country, college recruiters have a hard time finding
them.
Hoxby is working on interventions to reach these students and to give them a
clear picture of their choices. She doesn't believe all these students need
to necessarily end up at a highly selective college, but she wants them to
clearly understand that they have that choice. |
N********n
发帖数: 13236 | 2 大叔好，我们刚念叨你呢。。。
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 但是如果你是一个聪明的穷孩子，而且考上了 TJHSST 或者 Northside College Prep
: ， 那你上精英大学的几率几乎是百分之百！
: http://www.npr.org/2013/01/09/168889785/elite-colleges-struggle
: Elite Colleges Struggle To Recruit Smart, Low-Income Kids
: by Shankar Vedantam
: January 09, 2013 3:31 AM
: Across the United States, college administrators are poring over student
: essays, recommendation letters and SAT scores as they select a freshman
: class for the fall.
: If this is like most years, administrators at top schools such as Harvard
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 3 据我所知，被您念叨似乎不是什么好事。
还是省了吧。
【在 N********n 的大作中提到】
: 大叔好，我们刚念叨你呢。。。
|
i*****t
发帖数: 9074 | 4 very true.
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 但是如果你是一个聪明的穷孩子，而且考上了 TJHSST 或者 Northside College Prep
: ， 那你上精英大学的几率几乎是百分之百！
: http://www.npr.org/2013/01/09/168889785/elite-colleges-struggle
: Elite Colleges Struggle To Recruit Smart, Low-Income Kids
: by Shankar Vedantam
: January 09, 2013 3:31 AM
: Across the United States, college administrators are poring over student
: essays, recommendation letters and SAT scores as they select a freshman
: class for the fall.
: If this is like most years, administrators at top schools such as Harvard
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 5 诸位如果是伯乐，知道哪个穷孩子成绩好，可要鼓励他（她）申请精英大学哟！
第一步是让他（她）考上四大高中：
Whitney Young, Northside College Prep, Walter Payton, Jones |
i*****t
发帖数: 9074 | 6 GS has couple of high prfile guys who were black 穷孩子.
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 诸位如果是伯乐，知道哪个穷孩子成绩好，可要鼓励他（她）申请精英大学哟！
: 第一步是让他（她）考上四大高中：
: Whitney Young, Northside College Prep, Walter Payton, Jones
|
i*****t
发帖数: 9074 | 7 I talked to one of them ,and he is a very brilliant guy.
【在 i*****t 的大作中提到】
: GS has couple of high prfile guys who were black 穷孩子.
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 8 不好意思问一下，GS 是什么呀？ Goldman Sachs ?
【在 i*****t 的大作中提到】
: GS has couple of high prfile guys who were black 穷孩子.
|
i*****t
发帖数: 9074 | 9 yes.
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 不好意思问一下，GS 是什么呀？ Goldman Sachs ?
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 10 Thanks.
【在 i*****t 的大作中提到】
: yes.
|
|
|
N********n
发帖数: 13236 | 11 老大，您错了，其实大叔我内心也是100%支持AA，支持老黑的孩子不用努力就应该直接
把他们送到社会中上层，老中的孩子就是土逼，活该有大学录取政策限制其比例，恩。
。。
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 据我所知，被您念叨似乎不是什么好事。
: 还是省了吧。
|
c********r
发帖数: 1422 | 12 你这个叫嚣AA好的就别再丢人现眼了。
芝加哥那四个公立学校去的最多的是UIUC和UIC，每年就那么几个去HYPMS,胡扯什么穷
孩子100%精英大学。
http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/Chicago/31792497.html
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 诸位如果是伯乐，知道哪个穷孩子成绩好，可要鼓励他（她）申请精英大学哟！
: 第一步是让他（她）考上四大高中：
: Whitney Young, Northside College Prep, Walter Payton, Jones
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 13 您自己给自己下套，套牢了不是？贪便宜吃大亏。
【在 N********n 的大作中提到】
: 老大，您错了，其实大叔我内心也是100%支持AA，支持老黑的孩子不用努力就应该直接
: 把他们送到社会中上层，老中的孩子就是土逼，活该有大学录取政策限制其比例，恩。
: 。。
|
N********n
发帖数: 13236 | 14 大萝卜还是不如我们challenger大叔牛掰啊。。。
【在 c********r 的大作中提到】
: 你这个叫嚣AA好的就别再丢人现眼了。
: 芝加哥那四个公立学校去的最多的是UIUC和UIC，每年就那么几个去HYPMS,胡扯什么穷
: 孩子100%精英大学。
: http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/Chicago/31792497.html
|
N********n
发帖数: 13236 | 15 崇拜老黑还用套？直接内射啊，我们版主最近也好这一口，回头让其帮你m上。。。
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 您自己给自己下套，套牢了不是？贪便宜吃大亏。
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 16 据说，反对 AA 制的论点之一是精英学校按肤色录取学生。反对 AA 制的人士，有的推
崇用 socioeconomic diversity 取代 AA 制。
本文说明，精英大学已经在考虑 socioeconomic diversity 的 factor。但巧妇难为
无米之炊，因为＂穷＂孩子又聪明的申请人太少。
至于您的质问，去向原文作者反映吧。第二，您的理解有偏差：我说过＂所有＂上
Northside 或者其他公立高中的＂都＂上精英大学了吗？文章说的可是＂穷＂孩子。第
三，考虑到您的理解能力，我就不和您讨论有关 AA 制的问题了。第四，谁丢人现眼了？
P.S.: 您对公立学校的看法，让版上有孩子上其它非 HYPMS 大学的网友多伤心啊。好
歹芝加哥大学也算个精英大学吧？
【在 c********r 的大作中提到】
: 你这个叫嚣AA好的就别再丢人现眼了。
: 芝加哥那四个公立学校去的最多的是UIUC和UIC，每年就那么几个去HYPMS,胡扯什么穷
: 孩子100%精英大学。
: http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/Chicago/31792497.html
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 17 您瞧，又让我说中了不是？您就继续念叨吧。除了这些提不到桌面的言词，您还会说啥？
【在 N********n 的大作中提到】
: 崇拜老黑还用套？直接内射啊，我们版主最近也好这一口，回头让其帮你m上。。。
|
N********n
发帖数: 13236 | 18 我路上踩到狗屎还不让我说shit啦？
啥？
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 您瞧，又让我说中了不是？您就继续念叨吧。除了这些提不到桌面的言词，您还会说啥？
|
Z*****l
发帖数: 14069 | 19 聪明的穷孩子？聪明勤奋应该是家传的，那么其父母怎么会贫穷呢？听着跟基因突变似
的。
另外这穷孩子发迹了，下一代就不能再使用这个政策了。长此以往，当然这类孩子会越
来越少。毕竟基因突变是少数。 |
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 20 似乎在众多炸药奖的得主中，是一家子的很少。
又似乎:很多聪明勤奋的家长为自己既不聪明也不勤奋的孩子发愁。
【在 Z*****l 的大作中提到】
: 聪明的穷孩子？聪明勤奋应该是家传的，那么其父母怎么会贫穷呢？听着跟基因突变似
: 的。
: 另外这穷孩子发迹了，下一代就不能再使用这个政策了。长此以往，当然这类孩子会越
: 来越少。毕竟基因突变是少数。
|
|
|
Z*****l
发帖数: 14069 | 21 你似乎一下炸药奖得主一家全是白痴的，可以更极端例子更有说服力一点。
愚笨懒惰的富二代太多了，但这不能说明穷孩子聪明的多。
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 似乎在众多炸药奖的得主中，是一家子的很少。
: 又似乎:很多聪明勤奋的家长为自己既不聪明也不勤奋的孩子发愁。
|
y***n
发帖数: 2806 | 22 大家对小孩真是太投入了。
能对自己好点不？我感觉小孩给个良好的环境就行了，没必要什么精英不精英的，我小
孩以后只要能上个差不多得大学就行了。 |
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 23 那就看这世界上是穷人多还是富人多了。
文章讨论的是如何发现聪明的穷孩子，并没有讨论哪个阶层聪明孩子多的问题。不过，
大众的假想前提是：聪明孩子在各个阶层平均分布。
【在 Z*****l 的大作中提到】
: 你似乎一下炸药奖得主一家全是白痴的，可以更极端例子更有说服力一点。
: 愚笨懒惰的富二代太多了，但这不能说明穷孩子聪明的多。
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 24 有道理。
【在 y***n 的大作中提到】
: 大家对小孩真是太投入了。
: 能对自己好点不？我感觉小孩给个良好的环境就行了，没必要什么精英不精英的，我小
: 孩以后只要能上个差不多得大学就行了。
|
Z*****l
发帖数: 14069 | 25 在中国或者美国新移民中可能是有不少聪明的穷孩子。但是在美国老移民中多少代还穷
的，只有指望基因突变了。
跟作者美好的愿望不同，俺认为名校招不到聪明穷孩的原因就是美国多少年社会淘汰下
来，这样的人很少。名校如果不是装腔作势而是真有这个愿望，直接到中国去找，聪明
穷孩要多少有多少。
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 那就看这世界上是穷人多还是富人多了。
: 文章讨论的是如何发现聪明的穷孩子，并没有讨论哪个阶层聪明孩子多的问题。不过，
: 大众的假想前提是：聪明孩子在各个阶层平均分布。
|
s*****g
发帖数: 7857 | 26 Lab school那么多孩子都去哪里了?
【在 c********r 的大作中提到】
: 你这个叫嚣AA好的就别再丢人现眼了。
: 芝加哥那四个公立学校去的最多的是UIUC和UIC，每年就那么几个去HYPMS,胡扯什么穷
: 孩子100%精英大学。
: http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/Chicago/31792497.html
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 27 这牵扯到一个敏感的社会问题：那些被你称之为贫穷的老移民的后代，应该怎样去生存
？去当兵或去当强盗？让他们自生自灭？还是有其它的方法让他们脱贫致富？
至于去中国招生一事，我早就说了，他们肯定秒杀大多美国高中生，尤其在＂新东方＂
之类学校的帮助下。
【在 Z*****l 的大作中提到】
: 在中国或者美国新移民中可能是有不少聪明的穷孩子。但是在美国老移民中多少代还穷
: 的，只有指望基因突变了。
: 跟作者美好的愿望不同，俺认为名校招不到聪明穷孩的原因就是美国多少年社会淘汰下
: 来，这样的人很少。名校如果不是装腔作势而是真有这个愿望，直接到中国去找，聪明
: 穷孩要多少有多少。
|
Z*****l
发帖数: 14069 | 28 对于第一题，你是政治正确挂帅的左派，肯定不会喜欢我右派的残酷答案。
貌似大家目的都是为华人利益，只是手段不同，俺就闭嘴了。
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 这牵扯到一个敏感的社会问题：那些被你称之为贫穷的老移民的后代，应该怎样去生存
: ？去当兵或去当强盗？让他们自生自灭？还是有其它的方法让他们脱贫致富？
: 至于去中国招生一事，我早就说了，他们肯定秒杀大多美国高中生，尤其在＂新东方＂
: 之类学校的帮助下。
|
b*x
发帖数: 5456 | 29 我是不知道这些人脑子怎么长的， GRE逻辑白考了。
人人平等
=》Every kid is special.
=>所以要AA。
=>所以黑墨要比华人小孩跟容易考大学。
=》Every kid 不包括华人
=》 人人不是平等的。
【在 Z*****l 的大作中提到】
: 对于第一题，你是政治正确挂帅的左派，肯定不会喜欢我右派的残酷答案。
: 貌似大家目的都是为华人利益，只是手段不同，俺就闭嘴了。
|
x*********n
发帖数: 28013 | 30 AA is right,without any questions
but I would not support it.
I do agree yemen's point.
I believe destiny. |
|
|
g******4
发帖数: 6339 | 31 "Hoxby found that the majority of academically gifted low-income students
come from a handful of places in the country: About 70 percent of them come
from 15 large metropolitan areas. These areas often have highly
regarded public high schools, such as Stuyvesant in New York City or Thomas
Jeffersonin the Washington, D.C., area.
Low-income high-achieving students at these schools have close to 100
percent odds of attending an Ivy League school or other highly selective
college, Hoxby says."
Prep
， 那你上精英大学的几率几乎是百分之百！ |
a**e
发帖数: 5094 | 32 这有什么奇怪的。
把全部家当都扔在本科上才不明智呢。是金子，什么时候都能发光。
我听说过一个家境比较差的孩子，本科被H录取了，没去。因为Duke给了全奖。
医学院又被H录取了，没去。因为一个很普通的州立大学给了奖学金
到住院医的时候，这回不用花钱了，去了Harvard
Prep
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 但是如果你是一个聪明的穷孩子，而且考上了 TJHSST 或者 Northside College Prep
: ， 那你上精英大学的几率几乎是百分之百！
: http://www.npr.org/2013/01/09/168889785/elite-colleges-struggle
: Elite Colleges Struggle To Recruit Smart, Low-Income Kids
: by Shankar Vedantam
: January 09, 2013 3:31 AM
: Across the United States, college administrators are poring over student
: essays, recommendation letters and SAT scores as they select a freshman
: class for the fall.
: If this is like most years, administrators at top schools such as Harvard
|
t*****g
发帖数: 7455 | 33 说实话，穷孩子里面聪明的比例还真不多
父母聪明，还受穷的真是凤毛麟角
父母不聪明，孩子聪明的可能更小
所以什么聪明的穷孩子申请者少这是必然的，跟穷关系不大
很多穷孩子能发达，不是多么聪明，更大程度上来源于锲而不舍的精神和努力
了？
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 据说，反对 AA 制的论点之一是精英学校按肤色录取学生。反对 AA 制的人士，有的推
: 崇用 socioeconomic diversity 取代 AA 制。
: 本文说明，精英大学已经在考虑 socioeconomic diversity 的 factor。但巧妇难为
: 无米之炊，因为＂穷＂孩子又聪明的申请人太少。
: 至于您的质问，去向原文作者反映吧。第二，您的理解有偏差：我说过＂所有＂上
: Northside 或者其他公立高中的＂都＂上精英大学了吗？文章说的可是＂穷＂孩子。第
: 三，考虑到您的理解能力，我就不和您讨论有关 AA 制的问题了。第四，谁丢人现眼了？
: P.S.: 您对公立学校的看法，让版上有孩子上其它非 HYPMS 大学的网友多伤心啊。好
: 歹芝加哥大学也算个精英大学吧？
|
t**********0
发帖数: 1700 | 34 穷孩子不可能聪明
Prep
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 但是如果你是一个聪明的穷孩子，而且考上了 TJHSST 或者 Northside College Prep
: ， 那你上精英大学的几率几乎是百分之百！
: http://www.npr.org/2013/01/09/168889785/elite-colleges-struggle
: Elite Colleges Struggle To Recruit Smart, Low-Income Kids
: by Shankar Vedantam
: January 09, 2013 3:31 AM
: Across the United States, college administrators are poring over student
: essays, recommendation letters and SAT scores as they select a freshman
: class for the fall.
: If this is like most years, administrators at top schools such as Harvard
|
a*****g
发帖数: 19398 | 35 蛮有道理的
【在 t*****g 的大作中提到】
: 说实话，穷孩子里面聪明的比例还真不多
: 父母聪明，还受穷的真是凤毛麟角
: 父母不聪明，孩子聪明的可能更小
: 所以什么聪明的穷孩子申请者少这是必然的，跟穷关系不大
: 很多穷孩子能发达，不是多么聪明，更大程度上来源于锲而不舍的精神和努力
:
: 了？
|
a*****g
发帖数: 19398 | 36 会不会自己家穷，然后寄养在富有的亲戚家里的？
【在 t**********0 的大作中提到】
: 穷孩子不可能聪明
:
: Prep
|
d*****o
发帖数: 2868 | 37 出身贫寒，但非常聪明，学习好的穷孩子上不了一流大学固然可惜, 但我觉得人这一辈
子并不是停止在大学毕业; 一个人本科毕业也就是22, 23的样子，即使博士毕业也就奔
3. 他／她后面还有4,50年的生活要去面对 and a lot of things can happen in
these 4, 50 yrs.
At the end of the day, life isn't a 100m race, it is a journey and the
journey lasts on average 70+ yrs. What really matters isn't how smart
some1 is, or which school that person graduates from, it is the heart! if
some1 really believes in something, and s/he is willing to put the hard work
into it over a long period of time, there is a good chance that s/he will
succeed.
Speaking of 穷孩子, many of the chinese graduate students who came to
america in the 80s barely had any financial assets when they first arrived
in America, but after working/striving for 10+ yrs, starting in the 90s,
many of them finished their degree and found respectable jobs in their
fields.
Life can be tough sometimes, and as an immigrant myself, i feel for those 穷
孩子, as a matter of fact, i had a humble beginning when i came to this
country 12 yrs ago as well. Nevertheless, difficult circumstances should
never be an excuse for giving up, for not trying. these 穷孩子 should work
extra hard, so they can provide a better future for their kids in the near
future. |
b****e
发帖数: 412 | 38 穷的标准是什么？？吃不饱穿不暖？还是买不起北上广的房子？
【在 t*****g 的大作中提到】
: 说实话，穷孩子里面聪明的比例还真不多
: 父母聪明，还受穷的真是凤毛麟角
: 父母不聪明，孩子聪明的可能更小
: 所以什么聪明的穷孩子申请者少这是必然的，跟穷关系不大
: 很多穷孩子能发达，不是多么聪明，更大程度上来源于锲而不舍的精神和努力
:
: 了？
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 39 Good reasoning.
However, I would like to point out two facts:
1) Those Chinese graduate students coming to the U.S. were poor in terms of
wealth when they stepped on the land of the free. But they were not poor in
terms of education. Almost everyone had a B.S. degree from a respectable
college in China. The advantage of having a degree from Beida or Tsinghua
would be an asset for some of those foreign students. It could be argued
that their solid training in a respectable college in China helped establish
their ensuing success in America. A good college education is at least a
stepping stone for one's professional career.
2) At least among my college classmates in China, some were really poor.
One boy never went home during the four-year study because he could not
afford a train ticket to and from home. Another "cut" his hair himself to
save money. Still another wore clothes with "patches" or holes, not those
designer clothes with special effects these days. All of them are smart and
poor. Therefore, I would disagree with the notion that there are no (or very
few) smart, poor kids in the world who deserve a better, if not the best,
college education.
Finally, no one can deny the benefit of graduating from an elite college to
an aspiring young man or woman, especially for those who lack other
connections or passes to future prosperity. Extending such an opportunity to
a smart, poor kid would change his or her life.
work
【在 d*****o 的大作中提到】
: 出身贫寒，但非常聪明，学习好的穷孩子上不了一流大学固然可惜, 但我觉得人这一辈
: 子并不是停止在大学毕业; 一个人本科毕业也就是22, 23的样子，即使博士毕业也就奔
: 3. 他／她后面还有4,50年的生活要去面对 and a lot of things can happen in
: these 4, 50 yrs.
: At the end of the day, life isn't a 100m race, it is a journey and the
: journey lasts on average 70+ yrs. What really matters isn't how smart
: some1 is, or which school that person graduates from, it is the heart! if
: some1 really believes in something, and s/he is willing to put the hard work
: into it over a long period of time, there is a good chance that s/he will
: succeed.
|
p**g
发帖数: 4595 | 40 postdoc子女
【在 Z*****l 的大作中提到】
: 聪明的穷孩子？聪明勤奋应该是家传的，那么其父母怎么会贫穷呢？听着跟基因突变似
: 的。
: 另外这穷孩子发迹了，下一代就不能再使用这个政策了。长此以往，当然这类孩子会越
: 来越少。毕竟基因突变是少数。
|
|
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 41 Link:
http://www.browndailyherald.com/mobile/top-high-schools-find-ad
Top high schools find admissions success
By David Chung
Senior Staff Writer
Published: Wednesday, April 27, 2011
Updated: Wednesday, December 19, 2012
Besides rigorous academic curricula, extracurricular opportunities, long
histories of distinguished alums and growing national and international
reputations, the Harvard-Westlake School and Phillips Academy have something
else in common.
Both institutions have sent more than 45 graduates each to Brown in the past
five years, according to figures released by the schools’ college
counseling departments.
Top-tier private and magnet high schools boast high matriculation rates to
the most prestigious colleges and universities. But these schools deny that
the relationships between college counselors and college admission offices
help boost their students’ chances of getting in.
Harvard-Westlake, a college-preparatory day school in North Hollywood, Calif
., and Phillips Academy, a Massachusetts boarding school usually referred to
as Andover, are two of a handful of high schools across the country that
send more than one-fourth of their students to Ivy League or highly
reputable institutions.
The all-male Collegiate School in New York City has sent 39.6 percent of its
graduates in the past five years to universities falling under the “Ivy
Plus” umbrella — the eight Ivy League universities, as well as Stanford
University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Among the
graduates, 14 have enrolled at Brown.
Other New York private and boarding schools located throughout New England
boast similar statistics.
Trinity School on the Upper West Side of Manhattan — named “America’s
Best Prep School” by Forbes Magazine last year — sent 21 students to Brown
and matriculated 37.3 percent of its students to “Ivy Plus” universities
in the past five years.
Twenty-two graduates of Phillips Exeter Academy, a boarding school in Exeter
, N.H., enrolled at Brown in the past three years, while 250 alums have
entered other “Ivy Plus” institutions in that time. Milton Academy in
Milton, Mass., sent 24 students from its past three graduating classes to
Brown.
But according to Jim Miller ’73, dean of admission, personal relationships
between prestigious institutions and secondary schools do not impact these
numbers.
“We do not admit schools,” he wrote in an email to The Herald. “We admit
students.”
Attracting talent
Miller credited these prep schools’ ability to attract a diverse and
talented group of students with their high college admission rates. The
growing global reputations of institutions such as Andover, Exeter and
Milton allow the schools to enroll exceptional students from all corners of
the world, he wrote. And renowned day schools, such as Harvard-Westlake or
public magnet Stuyvesant High School in New York, benefit from their footing
in larger metropolitan areas.
Such preparatory schools possess a high level of talent, and the greater
number of applicants from the schools is “inevitable,” he wrote. Brown
receives more than 75 applications from many of these schools each year, he
wrote, adding that “it makes sense” for schools with such a large number
of applications to see a high number of acceptances.
“The successes of these schools in our admission process … is a function
of the unique opportunities they have to find promising students across a
broad geographical spectrum and educate them well,” Miller wrote. “We do
not have any quotas, expectations or targets for any institution for any
reason.”
But the top independent schools across the country expect they will maintain
a “batting average” in university admissions, said Stephen Nelson, senior
scholar at Brown’s Leadership Alliance. College counseling is undergoing a
process of “professionalization,” Nelson said, making it the college
counselors’ jobs to get students into top universities.
Though he is unsure whether an “on-the-phone relationship” exists between
universities and certain high schools, he said college admissions are
affected by trends, and universities tend to invest their time in schools
and regions from which students consistently enroll.
Nelson, an alumni representative of Gettysburg College, said there are
schools from which Gettysburg seeks prospective students and other
institutions it avoids based on previous matriculation statistics.
Examining the relationships
Martha Lyman, associate head of school and director of college advising at
Deerfield Academy, a boarding high school in Massachusetts, denied the
existence of any special relationship between Deerfield and universities.
According to the academy’s website, six members of the class of 2010
enrolled at Brown while 48 others matriculated at the remaining “Ivy Plus”
institutions.
Tamar Adegbile, an upper school dean at Harvard-Westlake, said her school
has developed a positive relationship with Brown, but students at Harvard-
Westlake do not receive “preferential treatment” in the admission process.
Ed Hu ’87, Harvard-Westlake’s chief advancement officer and former
associate dean of admission at Brown, has often led Harvard-Westlake
students on tours of the University, but Adegbile said Harvard-Westlake has
not used the relationship to its advantage.
But she added that athletes, especially water polo players or students with
family connections to Brown, may have a greater chance of being admitted.
Max Lubin ’12, a graduate of Harvard-Westlake and a member of the men’s
water polo team, said it has been “a long tradition” for the school’s
water polo players to attend Brown. The coaches at Brown and Harvard-
Westlake do not have an established relationship, but Harvard-Westlake is
well-known for its water polo program, he said.
But Lubin said he believes special relationships have affected college
admissions in the past. According to Lubin, more than 25 students — what
Lubin said was an “absurd” number — were admitted to Penn from Harvard-
Westlake’s class of 2007 because of connections among school personnel, but
when the admissions officials at Penn changed, the acceptance numbers
noticeably decreased, Lubin said.
Stanley Bosworth, former headmaster of Saint Ann’s School in New York,
established connections with a number of universities through his ability to
be “personable,” said Caleb Townsend ’11, a 2007 graduate of the school.
Bosworth, who retired in 2004, developed relationships that were personal
at first, rather than school-to-school, Townsend said. But as Bosworth
consistently sent talented students to reputable universities, Saint Ann’s
became more oriented toward university preparation.
Bosworth’s influence became noticeable after his retirement, Townsend said,
as the “gravity” of the relationships between Saint Ann’s and top
universities has been “dwindling.”
According to matriculation statistics available on the school’s website, 50
students came to Brown and 152 enrolled at “Ivy Plus” universities in the
six years prior to Bosworth’s retirement. In the six years after his
departure, 26 Saint Ann’s graduates have enrolled at Brown, and a total of
118 have entered “Ivy Plus” institutions.
Students at Saint Ann’s receive written reports from their instructors
instead of grades. Universities are accustomed to the school’s grading
system, wrote Elizabeth Hannan and Melissa Gibson, college counselors at
Saint Ann’s, in an email to The Herald. They declined to comment on whether
or not Saint Ann’s has special relationships with certain universities
that can sway admission numbers.
Brenda Tan ’14, who graduated from Trinity last year, said students at her
school expected approximately 50 percent of the graduating class to be
admitted to an Ivy or equally reputable institution. She said that, though
many of the students who went to Ivy League schools from Trinity were legacy
candidates, college counselors who themselves attended the schools were
able to establish connections and contact institutions on behalf of students
placed on waitlists.
But Katrina Toal ’12, a graduate of Hunter College High School, a public
magnet school in New York, said her school’s counselors “don’t buddy it
up with admissions staff to get students into schools.” She said she
believes special relationships exist between Hunter and institutions across
the country, but they are “based solely on the reputation of the quality of
students at Hunter.” Hunter does not publish matriculation statistics.
Clogging the applicant pool
But some graduates of these preparatory schools said attending competitive
schools may have actually hurt their chances of admittance to top
institutions.
Chris Sulawko ’13, who attended Stuyvesant, said he was “frustrated” when
applying to Ivy League universities because of the stiff competition he
faced from his classmates. The school tends to create the “formulaic
college applicant” derived from a “how-to book,” according to Evan
Schwartz ’13, also a Stuvyesant graduate.
Due to the caliber of Stuyvesant students, some might have had better luck
in the college admission process had they attended another high school, said
Gabe Paley ’12, a Stuyvesant alum. Paley said his father suggested he
enroll at the Horace Mann School in New York, which was ranked second in the
nation last year by Forbes, to better his college prospects. Horace Mann
boasts a matriculation rate of 36 percent at “Ivy Plus” universities,
according to Forbes. Like Hunter, Stuyvesant does not publish matriculation
statistics.
Allen Kramer ’13, a member of Stuvyesant’s class of 2009, said the school
sends around seven students each year to Brown, significantly fewer than it
sends to Cornell and Harvard. But Miller wrote that over the past two years,
Stuyvesant has been the school with the highest number of applications to
Brown.
Alice Hines ’11, an Exeter alum, said some students at Exeter believed
their chances of attending a top-ranked university were hurt by having
attended the school. Above-average students who did not stand out among
their classmates could get “screwed over” in the admission process, she
recalled.
College counseling officials at Andover, Exeter, Collegiate, St. Paul’s
School and the Dalton School in New York declined requests for comment. St.
Paul’s, a boarding school in Concord, N.H., sent 15 students to Brown in
the past four years, while Dalton matriculated 25 graduates to Brown in the
past five years.
Though many of the nation’s top secondary schools are heavily concentrated
in New York and New England — Forbes placed only two prep schools located
outside the northeast in its top-20 rankings — Miller wrote in his email to
The Herald that other schools with pools of gifted students find similar
success in the college admission process. Among them, he mentioned the
Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology in Alexandria, Va.
and Li Po Chun United World College of Hong Kong. Around 120 alums of the 13
UWC campuses attend Brown, The Herald reported in February.
The Brown Daily Herald |
w**********9
发帖数: 1058 | 42 楼主的观点是什么？这不是大家都一直说的应该以经济条件，而不是种族作为衡量条件
，跟你一直鼓吹的AA不是一回事呀。
来听听你这次又打算怎么搅和。 |
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 43 如果你是一个聪明的穷孩子，而且考上了 TJHSST 或者 Northside College Prep
， 那你上精英大学的几率几乎是百分之百！
据说，反对 AA 制的论点之一是精英学校按肤色录取学生。反对 AA 制的人士，有的推
崇用 socioeconomic diversity 取代 AA 制。
本文说明，精英大学已经在考虑 socioeconomic diversity 的 factor。但巧妇难为
无米之炊，因为＂穷＂孩子又聪明的申请人太少。
【在 w**********9 的大作中提到】
: 楼主的观点是什么？这不是大家都一直说的应该以经济条件，而不是种族作为衡量条件
: ，跟你一直鼓吹的AA不是一回事呀。
: 来听听你这次又打算怎么搅和。
|
w**********9
发帖数: 1058 | 44 你这不是bullshit吗？
可以说现在这种情况正是AA造成的，穷孩子中大量有talent的，肯努力用功学习的不少
在中学就被AA了，芝加哥的几个学校不就是这个情况吗？
解决这个问题根本不是什么AA能办到的，socioeconomic diversity无法做到，是因为
穷孩子从小就没有受到好的教育，而这个教育从很大程度上是家庭的教育和责任。为什
么同样是穷人家，有人父母能倾尽所有（不管是物力还是人力）努力让孩子受到好的教
育，有人就根本不承担任何为人父母的责任，结果能一样吗？AA的结果就是劣币驱逐良
币。
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 如果你是一个聪明的穷孩子，而且考上了 TJHSST 或者 Northside College Prep
: ， 那你上精英大学的几率几乎是百分之百！
: 据说，反对 AA 制的论点之一是精英学校按肤色录取学生。反对 AA 制的人士，有的推
: 崇用 socioeconomic diversity 取代 AA 制。
: 本文说明，精英大学已经在考虑 socioeconomic diversity 的 factor。但巧妇难为
: 无米之炊，因为＂穷＂孩子又聪明的申请人太少。
|
d*****k
发帖数: 310 | 45 socioeconomic diversity定义是什么？ 为什么要把这个加到Merit based system里？
如果要保持竞争力， 为什么要鼓励大家以好吃懒做为荣？ 任何把非merit based的
factor纳入教育评估系统的都是脑残。 social economic condition已经倾斜大量的资
源到这些低收入家庭， 现在的美国比任何时候更加”共产主义“， 吃”白食“的到达
了顶峰。 为什么chicago 高中毕业率却越来越低？ 为什么游手好闲的黑人越来越多？
beida没法解释吧？
你可以慷慨解囊把你的家产和机会去捐助 这些游手好闲的人（当然谁都知道左棍都是
口是心非的， 自己的钱和机会是一毛不拔的）， 但是你不能代表我们正常人， 把我
们的正当权利送给这些好吃懒做的人。 这才是民主的真谛， 大家给予的平等权利，
你没有权利剥夺别人的正当权利而保留自己的。 |
c*****g
发帖数: 119 | 46 tjhsst是什么？
Prep
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 但是如果你是一个聪明的穷孩子，而且考上了 TJHSST 或者 Northside College Prep
: ， 那你上精英大学的几率几乎是百分之百！
: http://www.npr.org/2013/01/09/168889785/elite-colleges-struggle
: Elite Colleges Struggle To Recruit Smart, Low-Income Kids
: by Shankar Vedantam
: January 09, 2013 3:31 AM
: Across the United States, college administrators are poring over student
: essays, recommendation letters and SAT scores as they select a freshman
: class for the fall.
: If this is like most years, administrators at top schools such as Harvard
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 47 This is a chicken and egg question.
To begin with, the article did not analyze poor Black or poor White kids,
but poor kids in general who are smart, including poor Asian kids.
What is most likely the ethnic group of the poor kid? If your answer is
Black or Hispanic, then along your reasoning, the problem lies in Black and
Hispanic 穷孩子从小就没有受到好的教育, and further 很大程度上是 Black and
Hispanic 家庭的教育和责任. You further hinted that the reason was that the
black andor brown family did not 倾尽所有（不管是物力还是人力）努力让孩子受
到好的教育. That is quite a stretch if you draw such a generalization.
Further, you seemed apathetic to the fate of those poor Black or Hispanic
kids, and would not bother if they "live or die" within their born
socioeconimic status. Tell that to your pastor, your Congressman, your
gardener or your janitor and ask them if that is right or fair.
Finally, with the AA policy, more colored people and minorities achieved
status that their parents could not have fathomed.
放眼望去，美国领导层多为白人男性，这和中国领导层多是汉族男性有类似之处。原因
？我就不说了。你懂的。AA 制其实部分目的就是想打破这种垄断。成果如何，你们自
己评价。反正出了一个黑人总统；目前有十九个妇女在当“财富”500 强的首席执行官
（包括一亚裔女性）；有六个黑人在当“财富”500 强的首席执行官。
Simple math: Asian CEO in Forbes 500: 1/500. Do you think there is a glass
ceiling for Asian leaders in America? Without AA's benefits, do you think
more Asians would become CEO's on the list of Forbes 500?
【在 w**********9 的大作中提到】
: 你这不是bullshit吗？
: 可以说现在这种情况正是AA造成的，穷孩子中大量有talent的，肯努力用功学习的不少
: 在中学就被AA了，芝加哥的几个学校不就是这个情况吗？
: 解决这个问题根本不是什么AA能办到的，socioeconomic diversity无法做到，是因为
: 穷孩子从小就没有受到好的教育，而这个教育从很大程度上是家庭的教育和责任。为什
: 么同样是穷人家，有人父母能倾尽所有（不管是物力还是人力）努力让孩子受到好的教
: 育，有人就根本不承担任何为人父母的责任，结果能一样吗？AA的结果就是劣币驱逐良
: 币。
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 48 Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology (TJHSST, TJ,
Jefferson) is a Virginia state-chartered magnet school located within
Fairfax County.
【在 c*****g 的大作中提到】
: tjhsst是什么？
:
: Prep
|
d*****k
发帖数: 310 | 49 简单的比喻，
beida拿着一大车蜂蜜， 跑到一个化粪池边， 大叫， “这里好落后啊， 我要来AA。
”
说完， 他指使着别人把其他人的一罐罐蜂蜜倒到化粪池里， 倒完了， 还是很臭， 于
是他把自己的那一罐拿回家去了。 然后第二天，他有跑到操场上， 扯着大喇叭叫，
”我们还要AA， 你们每个人再交一罐蜂蜜来。 “ 如此循环不断。 在操场的你一
边， 和他一样肤色的一堆中国小孩饿着肚子缩在角落里。 beida 每天拿着自己的蜂
蜜罐跑来跑去， 从来没有把自己那一罐丢进去。 |
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 50 Most serial or mass killers are well-educated Whites.
，
【在 d*****k 的大作中提到】
: socioeconomic diversity定义是什么？ 为什么要把这个加到Merit based system里？
: 如果要保持竞争力， 为什么要鼓励大家以好吃懒做为荣？ 任何把非merit based的
: factor纳入教育评估系统的都是脑残。 social economic condition已经倾斜大量的资
: 源到这些低收入家庭， 现在的美国比任何时候更加”共产主义“， 吃”白食“的到达
: 了顶峰。 为什么chicago 高中毕业率却越来越低？ 为什么游手好闲的黑人越来越多？
: beida没法解释吧？
: 你可以慷慨解囊把你的家产和机会去捐助 这些游手好闲的人（当然谁都知道左棍都是
: 口是心非的， 自己的钱和机会是一毛不拔的）， 但是你不能代表我们正常人， 把我
: 们的正当权利送给这些好吃懒做的人。 这才是民主的真谛， 大家给予的平等权利，
: 你没有权利剥夺别人的正当权利而保留自己的。
|
|
|
d*****k
发帖数: 310 | 51 Most kills are done by 黑墨。 不要捡了芝麻， 丢了西瓜。
在左棍眼里， 黑墨杀人犯的权利》》》其他颜色杀人犯的人的权利。
事实上 被黑墨杀人犯的人的数量》》》其他颜色杀人犯杀人的数量。
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: Most serial or mass killers are well-educated Whites.
:
: ，
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 52 许多年前在美国，白主人让黑仆人去摘棉花，让黄仆人去铺铁路，还不让他俩上好学校
或乘好公车。后来黑仆人不干了，聚众闹事，被打了，被杀了。黑仆人中聪明的某些人
当了大律师。这些人开始在美国各地立案，证明不让黑仆人的孩子上好学校是不公平的
。最后官司打到美国最高法院，黑仆人赢了。黑仆人和黄仆人的孩子都可以去上好学校
了。谁借了谁的光是很明显的。
又过了几十年，白主人的孩子说自己被黑仆人的孩子欺负了，上不了好大学。此时，部
分黄仆人的孩子认为自己不是仆人的孩子了，跟白主人的孩子应该是一拨的，也说自己
被黑仆人的孩子欺负了。白主人暗笑啊，心说：就是抢了黑仆人的孩子的位置，也不会
便宜其他仆人的孩子。黑仆人心说：日久见人心啊。谁想借光是很明显的。可最后谁会
占便宜可就不那么明显了。 |
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 53 Most killed were the minorities.
【在 d*****k 的大作中提到】
: Most kills are done by 黑墨。 不要捡了芝麻， 丢了西瓜。
: 在左棍眼里， 黑墨杀人犯的权利》》》其他颜色杀人犯的人的权利。
: 事实上 被黑墨杀人犯的人的数量》》》其他颜色杀人犯杀人的数量。
|
d*****k
发帖数: 310 | 54 beida, 过来给你黑爹妈舔一舔干净。
https://portal.chicagopolice.org/portal/page/portal/ClearPath/News/
Statistical%20Reports/Murder%20Reports/MA11.pdf
page 55 |
d*****k
发帖数: 310 | 55 So what?? 你这玷污北大的名声啊。
所以minority不算人了， 那你黑爹妈算什么？
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: Most killed were the minorities.
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 56 From some of the above posts, one may reach the following conclusion:
a seemingly good education might guarantee neither human decency nor common
courtesy. |
d*****k
发帖数: 310 | 57 是的， 一个中国人如果连祖宗都要改变， 连肤色都要改变， 就算读北大都是白搭。 |
d*****k
发帖数: 310 | 58 你这不光肤色改了， 脑子也改了。
公司政府录取里， 黑墨有底线， Asian有吗？
CPS以前录取你， 黑墨有底线， Asian有吗？
CPS现在的Social Economic status录取里， 黑墨有底线， Asian有吗？
先想清楚在来喷。 如果想不清楚， 那就先从CPS开始。
NY的gifted program没有AA， ASian》50%。 为啥这里10%都不到？为什么CPS的高中毕
业率越来越低？
and
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: This is a chicken and egg question.
: To begin with, the article did not analyze poor Black or poor White kids,
: but poor kids in general who are smart, including poor Asian kids.
: What is most likely the ethnic group of the poor kid? If your answer is
: Black or Hispanic, then along your reasoning, the problem lies in Black and
: Hispanic 穷孩子从小就没有受到好的教育, and further 很大程度上是 Black and
: Hispanic 家庭的教育和责任. You further hinted that the reason was that the
: black andor brown family did not 倾尽所有（不管是物力还是人力）努力让孩子受
: 到好的教育. That is quite a stretch if you draw such a generalization.
: Further, you seemed apathetic to the fate of those poor Black or Hispanic
|
z***i
发帖数: 212 | 59 Beida101 is a modern and shameful example of Hanjian (race traitor) -
assuming he is not stupid. He does not understand the fact that AA works
against Asians, simple and plain.
【在 d*****k 的大作中提到】
: 你这不光肤色改了， 脑子也改了。
: 公司政府录取里， 黑墨有底线， Asian有吗？
: CPS以前录取你， 黑墨有底线， Asian有吗？
: CPS现在的Social Economic status录取里， 黑墨有底线， Asian有吗？
: 先想清楚在来喷。 如果想不清楚， 那就先从CPS开始。
: NY的gifted program没有AA， ASian》50%。 为啥这里10%都不到？为什么CPS的高中毕
: 业率越来越低？
:
: and
|
w**********9
发帖数: 1058 | 60 看了你以前的帖子，很佩服自己居然能跟你在这里讨论。
AA在历史上的积极作用没有人能够否认，但是我们现在讨论的是在现在的情况下，AA带
来的是不是负面作用更大些，尤其对于它所要保护的人群来说。你贴的文章其实恰恰说
明了包括这些顶尖学校在内，大家都已经认识到了AA的缺陷，这才有更进一步的用社会
经济地位来作为多样化的标准，这样做，正是因为大家认为这是一个更公平，积极的标
准。不客气的说，你很多的帖子都有这种基本的逻辑混乱，和对最基本常识的缺乏，让
人怀疑你在北大是怎么混的。
早期的AA，是黑人对多年来受到歧视抗争已经白人对自身反省的结果，但应该看到的是
，经过这么多年AA的结果，对不小比例黑人来说AA让他们丧失了最基本的激励作用。AA
最基本的作用是让黑人看到他们的前途是不会被自己的肤色限制的，从而让他们有努力
奋进的动力，而现在，太多的人对自己收到的照顾认为理所当然，而不愿意去做最基本
的努力。这个问题实际上有远见的黑人也都有看到，只是在美国现在所谓政治正确的环
境下，还不能公开讨论而已。
一个有点小恶毒的希望，想看到你儿子从顶级学校被AA下来以后你的反应。
and
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: This is a chicken and egg question.
: To begin with, the article did not analyze poor Black or poor White kids,
: but poor kids in general who are smart, including poor Asian kids.
: What is most likely the ethnic group of the poor kid? If your answer is
: Black or Hispanic, then along your reasoning, the problem lies in Black and
: Hispanic 穷孩子从小就没有受到好的教育, and further 很大程度上是 Black and
: Hispanic 家庭的教育和责任. You further hinted that the reason was that the
: black andor brown family did not 倾尽所有（不管是物力还是人力）努力让孩子受
: 到好的教育. That is quite a stretch if you draw such a generalization.
: Further, you seemed apathetic to the fate of those poor Black or Hispanic
|
|
|
d*****k
发帖数: 310 | 61 我更恶毒， 我希望看到他搬到martin lurther king drive后的表情。
一个有点小恶毒的希望，想看到你儿子从顶级学校被AA下来以后你的反应。
【在 w**********9 的大作中提到】
: 看了你以前的帖子，很佩服自己居然能跟你在这里讨论。
: AA在历史上的积极作用没有人能够否认，但是我们现在讨论的是在现在的情况下，AA带
: 来的是不是负面作用更大些，尤其对于它所要保护的人群来说。你贴的文章其实恰恰说
: 明了包括这些顶尖学校在内，大家都已经认识到了AA的缺陷，这才有更进一步的用社会
: 经济地位来作为多样化的标准，这样做，正是因为大家认为这是一个更公平，积极的标
: 准。不客气的说，你很多的帖子都有这种基本的逻辑混乱，和对最基本常识的缺乏，让
: 人怀疑你在北大是怎么混的。
: 早期的AA，是黑人对多年来受到歧视抗争已经白人对自身反省的结果，但应该看到的是
: ，经过这么多年AA的结果，对不小比例黑人来说AA让他们丧失了最基本的激励作用。AA
: 最基本的作用是让黑人看到他们的前途是不会被自己的肤色限制的，从而让他们有努力
|
c********r
发帖数: 1422 | 62 芝加哥那四个学校平均40%来至于low income family,那些穷孩子都去精英学校了？作
者煞笔，你也二？
看个别人的文章，连想都不想就乱转，你这水平真为北大丢脸。跟你讨论AA,侮辱人类
智商.
了？
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 据说，反对 AA 制的论点之一是精英学校按肤色录取学生。反对 AA 制的人士，有的推
: 崇用 socioeconomic diversity 取代 AA 制。
: 本文说明，精英大学已经在考虑 socioeconomic diversity 的 factor。但巧妇难为
: 无米之炊，因为＂穷＂孩子又聪明的申请人太少。
: 至于您的质问，去向原文作者反映吧。第二，您的理解有偏差：我说过＂所有＂上
: Northside 或者其他公立高中的＂都＂上精英大学了吗？文章说的可是＂穷＂孩子。第
: 三，考虑到您的理解能力，我就不和您讨论有关 AA 制的问题了。第四，谁丢人现眼了？
: P.S.: 您对公立学校的看法，让版上有孩子上其它非 HYPMS 大学的网友多伤心啊。好
: 歹芝加哥大学也算个精英大学吧？
|
d*****k
发帖数: 310 | 63 想一想， 本来那40%可以用到更有希望的其他小孩的身上， 都浪费了这些资源。
与其这样当天才教育， 还不如老老实实从小教育他们踏踏实实作人。
AA不光剥夺了其他种族（特别是Asian）权利， 更让黑墨从小养成吃白食的习惯， 认
为只要是别人有的， 我就可以不费力气拿到。
【在 c********r 的大作中提到】
: 芝加哥那四个学校平均40%来至于low income family,那些穷孩子都去精英学校了？作
: 者煞笔，你也二？
: 看个别人的文章，连想都不想就乱转，你这水平真为北大丢脸。跟你讨论AA,侮辱人类
: 智商.
:
: 了？
|
w**********9
发帖数: 1058 | 64 那个文章本身没什么问题，更准确的说那篇文章正说明现有的中学里的AA是不对的，因
为绝大多数被AA进去的穷孩子不是聪明孩子，甚至都不努力。
楼主的帖子经常自己抽自己的脸，不过他的脸皮后，自己感觉不到而已。
【在 c********r 的大作中提到】
: 芝加哥那四个学校平均40%来至于low income family,那些穷孩子都去精英学校了？作
: 者煞笔，你也二？
: 看个别人的文章，连想都不想就乱转，你这水平真为北大丢脸。跟你讨论AA,侮辱人类
: 智商.
:
: 了？
|
c********r
发帖数: 1422 | 65 TJHSST 55% asian, 芝加哥那几个考试学校10% asian
TJHSST去HYMPS, IVY和其他top school比用AA名义歧视asian的芝加哥几个学校强n倍不
止。你就不要继续鼓吹，show off你得low IQ了。
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 如果你是一个聪明的穷孩子，而且考上了 TJHSST 或者 Northside College Prep
: ， 那你上精英大学的几率几乎是百分之百！
: 据说，反对 AA 制的论点之一是精英学校按肤色录取学生。反对 AA 制的人士，有的推
: 崇用 socioeconomic diversity 取代 AA 制。
: 本文说明，精英大学已经在考虑 socioeconomic diversity 的 factor。但巧妇难为
: 无米之炊，因为＂穷＂孩子又聪明的申请人太少。
|
d*****k
发帖数: 310 | 66 你们太不厚道了， 不能鞭尸啊。 给人留活路， 否则人家不来， 你们下次脚丫痒了，
还能踢谁啊。 |
c********u
发帖数: 1608 | 67 支持大家，比较不喜欢lz的言论，而且id还高个beida就你北大似的，一大把北大的人
也没整天把个学校挂着，真是有够无聊的。几时年前的事了，还挂念一辈子？
【在 d*****k 的大作中提到】
: 你们太不厚道了， 不能鞭尸啊。 给人留活路， 否则人家不来， 你们下次脚丫痒了，
: 还能踢谁啊。
|
C***y
发帖数: 138 | 68 聪明
【在 a**e 的大作中提到】
: 这有什么奇怪的。
: 把全部家当都扔在本科上才不明智呢。是金子，什么时候都能发光。
: 我听说过一个家境比较差的孩子，本科被H录取了，没去。因为Duke给了全奖。
: 医学院又被H录取了，没去。因为一个很普通的州立大学给了奖学金
: 到住院医的时候，这回不用花钱了，去了Harvard
:
: Prep
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 69 先搞清楚你所提及的 ４０％ percentile 是不是文章所说的 low income。再把文章所
说的聪明的定义搞明白。然后搞清楚文章所说的精英学校包括哪些大学。最后对照一下
文章所说的 low income 标准把芝加哥四所著名高中的穷且聪明的学生及其录取学校列
个表。
等看了这么个表，再发表看法也不迟啊。没准儿可以发论文呢。至少可以投到 Chicago
Uninion Tribune.
还有，要是真发表的时候，把用词改改，别显得太____。
【在 c********r 的大作中提到】
: 芝加哥那四个学校平均40%来至于low income family,那些穷孩子都去精英学校了？作
: 者煞笔，你也二？
: 看个别人的文章，连想都不想就乱转，你这水平真为北大丢脸。跟你讨论AA,侮辱人类
: 智商.
:
: 了？
|
d*****k
发帖数: 310 | 70 40%官方叫法是social economic status， 其实都是黑墨， 那chinatown偷渡客的聪明
娃就不算了？ 你先提高一下智商再来喷。
表。
Chicago
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 先搞清楚你所提及的 ４０％ percentile 是不是文章所说的 low income。再把文章所
: 说的聪明的定义搞明白。然后搞清楚文章所说的精英学校包括哪些大学。最后对照一下
: 文章所说的 low income 标准把芝加哥四所著名高中的穷且聪明的学生及其录取学校列
: 个表。
: 等看了这么个表，再发表看法也不迟啊。没准儿可以发论文呢。至少可以投到 Chicago
: Uninion Tribune.
: 还有，要是真发表的时候，把用词改改，别显得太____。
|
|
|
w**********9
发帖数: 1058 | 71 说你脸皮厚，你还真是不一般的厚。自己有没有做过统计，就敢出来胡喷，芝版就有统
计，自己看一看再说吧。
http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/Chicago/31792497.html
你自己看看Walter Payton的结果吧，看看和TJ还有NY的几所没有AA的高中有多大的区
别。
上次也是你在哪儿说美国funding father里没几个上过好大学的吧，结果被人很打了一
把脸，怎么就不长记性？
说别人容易，不过先把自己好好掂量一下。
还有，每次别人有道理的回帖就视而不见，你还真是混网络的一把好手。
Chicago
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 先搞清楚你所提及的 ４０％ percentile 是不是文章所说的 low income。再把文章所
: 说的聪明的定义搞明白。然后搞清楚文章所说的精英学校包括哪些大学。最后对照一下
: 文章所说的 low income 标准把芝加哥四所著名高中的穷且聪明的学生及其录取学校列
: 个表。
: 等看了这么个表，再发表看法也不迟啊。没准儿可以发论文呢。至少可以投到 Chicago
: Uninion Tribune.
: 还有，要是真发表的时候，把用词改改，别显得太____。
|
d*****k
发帖数: 310 | 72 对牛弹琴啊。 而且还是一只自我的傻牛。
【在 w**********9 的大作中提到】
: 说你脸皮厚，你还真是不一般的厚。自己有没有做过统计，就敢出来胡喷，芝版就有统
: 计，自己看一看再说吧。
: http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/Chicago/31792497.html
: 你自己看看Walter Payton的结果吧，看看和TJ还有NY的几所没有AA的高中有多大的区
: 别。
: 上次也是你在哪儿说美国funding father里没几个上过好大学的吧，结果被人很打了一
: 把脸，怎么就不长记性？
: 说别人容易，不过先把自己好好掂量一下。
: 还有，每次别人有道理的回帖就视而不见，你还真是混网络的一把好手。
:
|
w**********9
发帖数: 1058 | 73 你，你太侮辱牛了吧。。。
【在 d*****k 的大作中提到】
: 对牛弹琴啊。 而且还是一只自我的傻牛。
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 74 The white elephant in the room is the legacy preference in college admission
. One big reason that Asian Americans are disadvantaged is the legacy
preference used by admission offices. The alums of elite institutions tend
to be overwhelmingly white. Accordingly, their offspring, also white, make
inroad in the race to the finish-line. Asian Americans and other non-white
groups suffer from this legacy preference since day one.
Taking University of Virginia for example, for the fall 2003 class, 91
percent of legacy applicants accepted by early decision at UVA were white,
compared with just 1.6 percent who were Asian. Keep in mind that UVA is a
public school. You can imagine the picture at a private school. Hardly hear
any complaints against such practice by those who are against AA and
supporting merit-based admission. |
d*****k
发帖数: 310 | 75 解释一下，
CPS gifted 有40%-50%的黑人，
UIUC 录取 5%的黑人， http://www.dmi.illinois.edu/stuenr/abstracts/fa12Freshman_ten.htm
超过10W family income 只有 5%的黑人。
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0695.xls
这说明没有人可以认可这些强加的规则， 效果是负的，剥夺了其他35%-45%的人的权利
。
连基本的道德和是非观都没有， 教育出来都是你这样的人啊？ |
w**********9
发帖数: 1058 | 76 你别转移话题，legacy的问题大家都知道，现在大家这里讨论的是AA的问题。怎么，终
于发现自己的逻辑不通了？
admission
make
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: The white elephant in the room is the legacy preference in college admission
: . One big reason that Asian Americans are disadvantaged is the legacy
: preference used by admission offices. The alums of elite institutions tend
: to be overwhelmingly white. Accordingly, their offspring, also white, make
: inroad in the race to the finish-line. Asian Americans and other non-white
: groups suffer from this legacy preference since day one.
: Taking University of Virginia for example, for the fall 2003 class, 91
: percent of legacy applicants accepted by early decision at UVA were white,
: compared with just 1.6 percent who were Asian. Keep in mind that UVA is a
: public school. You can imagine the picture at a private school. Hardly hear
|
d*****k
发帖数: 310 | 77 人家又开始google啥叫逻辑了。 等会copy paste
【在 w**********9 的大作中提到】
: 你别转移话题，legacy的问题大家都知道，现在大家这里讨论的是AA的问题。怎么，终
: 于发现自己的逻辑不通了？
:
: admission
: make
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 78 Simple math shows that the loss at legacy admission sector may be made up by
AA consideration in other sectors. |
w**********9
发帖数: 1058 | 79 你前面的例子可是亚裔在legacy里受到歧视了，怎么AA里接着受歧视？自己回去搧自己
嘴巴吧。
by
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: Simple math shows that the loss at legacy admission sector may be made up by
: AA consideration in other sectors.
|
d*****k
发帖数: 310 | 80 你咋继续踢寡妇门， 挖绝户坟。。。
【在 w**********9 的大作中提到】
: 你前面的例子可是亚裔在legacy里受到歧视了，怎么AA里接着受歧视？自己回去搧自己
: 嘴巴吧。
:
: by
|
|
|
l****g
发帖数: 5080 | 81 我不相信1%的天才，只相信所谓天才们99%的努力。
现实是，努力是要花钱的。比如努力弹钢琴，努力打篮球（到处比赛），努力打高尔夫
，努力参加奥林匹克的各种竞赛（培训班）。大部分的各类活动都没法拿奖学金吧，到
大学录取的时候，美国的大学通常不很重视标准考试，这些额外的东东不是穷人可以负
担的，就是拿了食品券也不行。穷人要想更公平地竞争，还是要像中国那样，就凭一高
考分数才行。不过既然都吃了那么多年的减价午餐，拿了那么多福利，也不能指望各种
便宜都占到，不太现实嘛。 |
c****2
发帖数: 318 | 82 junkie
Prep
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 但是如果你是一个聪明的穷孩子，而且考上了 TJHSST 或者 Northside College Prep
: ， 那你上精英大学的几率几乎是百分之百！
: http://www.npr.org/2013/01/09/168889785/elite-colleges-struggle
: Elite Colleges Struggle To Recruit Smart, Low-Income Kids
: by Shankar Vedantam
: January 09, 2013 3:31 AM
: Across the United States, college administrators are poring over student
: essays, recommendation letters and SAT scores as they select a freshman
: class for the fall.
: If this is like most years, administrators at top schools such as Harvard
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | |
d*****k
发帖数: 310 | 84 别假惺惺的， 尼玛到黑人区把家财散尽到，看看有用没有。
人家黑人的问题是mentality， 不是money。 在中国， 山区的娃有这样的条件，早就
成才了。
人家就是下半身的动物。
当然知道你和这里几个著名ID一样， 一谈到实际行动支持你们的黑爹妈， 立马哑口无
言。
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 看了一圈儿，还是穷孩子命苦啊！唉，这世道。
|
w**********9
发帖数: 1058 | 85 你在这儿瞎感慨什么？世界大同之前，不公平本身就是存在的，你自己问问自己为改善
这种不公平做了什么？
我从来不反对向社会和经济地位低的孩子倾斜政策，但是我反对AA是因为它现在根本起
不到应有的作用，甚至成为阻碍很多人努力的负面政策和一部分谋求私利的工具。希望
你自己能看清这一点，别搁那儿瞎哼哼。
对了，以后发言先做好功课，别乱大嘴巴。
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 看了一圈儿，还是穷孩子命苦啊！唉，这世道。
|
d*****k
发帖数: 310 | 86 人家只有嘴巴有用， 啥都靠一张嘴啊。
【在 w**********9 的大作中提到】
: 你在这儿瞎感慨什么？世界大同之前，不公平本身就是存在的，你自己问问自己为改善
: 这种不公平做了什么？
: 我从来不反对向社会和经济地位低的孩子倾斜政策，但是我反对AA是因为它现在根本起
: 不到应有的作用，甚至成为阻碍很多人努力的负面政策和一部分谋求私利的工具。希望
: 你自己能看清这一点，别搁那儿瞎哼哼。
: 对了，以后发言先做好功课，别乱大嘴巴。
|
d*****a
发帖数: 3983 | 87 Ur picture is not good enough for ur point.
Read it again. Ask my husband if u don't know where is wrong.
:)
【在 c********r 的大作中提到】
: 你这个叫嚣AA好的就别再丢人现眼了。
: 芝加哥那四个公立学校去的最多的是UIUC和UIC，每年就那么几个去HYPMS,胡扯什么穷
: 孩子100%精英大学。
: http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/Chicago/31792497.html
|
c********r
发帖数: 1422 | 88 嗯，当年天才扎堆的某牛校的#1学生质疑，我老得重视一下。
beida101说 "美国的精英学校招不到聪明的穷孩子,但是如果你是一个聪明的穷孩子，
而且考上了 TJHSST 或者 Northside College Prep， 那你上精英大学的几率几乎是百
分之百！"
beida101又说 "诸位如果是伯乐，知道哪个穷孩子成绩好，可要鼓励他（她）申请精英
大学哟！第一步是让他（她）考上四大高中：Whitney Young, Northside College
Prep, Walter Payton, Jones"
芝加哥这四所学校每年“择优“选择一千二三百人，其中40%来至于low income family
.说这五百人都能上精英大学，这baida101不就是跟当初辩论AA一样睁着眼睛说瞎话么
。最鄙视这种无脑无立场冒牌liberals.
在另外一文，他鼓吹TJHSST去elite schools一大堆，我问他TJHSST有60%asian,到底AA
好，还是不好？这厮就当没看见不回阿。
如果芝加哥selective public schools没有现在歧视asian的录取政策，能跟NYC，
boston, LA, TJHSST一样公平录取，哪有这么多老中半到subruban来,这么大一个city
能出不来一个比TJHSST或者Stuyvesant强的学校？
【在 d*****a 的大作中提到】
: Ur picture is not good enough for ur point.
: Read it again. Ask my husband if u don't know where is wrong.
: :)
|
d*****k
发帖数: 310 | 89 别浪费时间了， 这些普世是没有逻辑的， 没有底线的。
family
【在 c********r 的大作中提到】
: 嗯，当年天才扎堆的某牛校的#1学生质疑，我老得重视一下。
: beida101说 "美国的精英学校招不到聪明的穷孩子,但是如果你是一个聪明的穷孩子，
: 而且考上了 TJHSST 或者 Northside College Prep， 那你上精英大学的几率几乎是百
: 分之百！"
: beida101又说 "诸位如果是伯乐，知道哪个穷孩子成绩好，可要鼓励他（她）申请精英
: 大学哟！第一步是让他（她）考上四大高中：Whitney Young, Northside College
: Prep, Walter Payton, Jones"
: 芝加哥这四所学校每年“择优“选择一千二三百人，其中40%来至于low income family
: .说这五百人都能上精英大学，这baida101不就是跟当初辩论AA一样睁着眼睛说瞎话么
: 。最鄙视这种无脑无立场冒牌liberals.
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 90 1）什么是精英学校？HMPSY？ 太少了吧？去首页的文章查一下原文的定义。什么是穷的
聪明孩子？去首页的文章找一下标准再发飙。你要是认为上了四大高中的孩子都＂聪明
＂得足以上HMPSY，那我对你的＂聪明＂程度表示怀疑。文章的主旨是说部分"聪明的穷
孩子"根本没申请精英学校。你认为他们全都申请了，就不关我的事了。
2）为证明所谓的藤校歧视亚裔生现象，许多人试图 通过＂统计＂数据来说明。比如，
加州公校招生不考虑 AA （虽然加州是铁杆民主党的天下），结果其亚裔学生占 40%。
藤校考虑 AA，结果亚裔学生仅占 17%！这是不是歧视？嘿嘿，还真不见得是。因为，
加州公校的主要生源是加州居民；加州人口有近 15% 是亚裔；不考虑 AA ，导致亚裔
over-representation 达到 40/15 = 266%。再看看考虑了AA 的藤校：全美人口亚裔只
占 5%；换算成亚裔 over-representation = 17/5 = 340%！340% > 266%。考虑了AA 的
藤校哪里歧视亚裔了？
3）再举一例。某帖子声称藤校歧视亚裔学生是 ＂systematic and institutionalized
＂。我问他要证据，他引了个图，说：亚裔 18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到 2011 增
加很多，已经加倍了。但亚裔学生在绝大部分长春藤学校中的百分比例只是持平，没有
太大变化。结论：亚裔被歧视了。
图标左边是学生的百分比；右边是亚裔适龄人数。典型的曲解数据。
Source:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-ame
反驳：
i）白人，黑人，西班牙裔 18 岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到 2011 可能也增加很快，
其增长的人数可能远远超过亚裔增长的人数，尤其是西班牙裔。这些族裔的学生在绝大
部分长春藤学校中的百分比例，可能也只是持平，没有太大变化。他们也被歧视了？那
不是所有族裔都被歧视了吗？
ii）文章作者暗示，亚裔学生在绝大部分长春藤学校中的的百分比例，应该和亚裔 18
岁到 21 岁的人数在 1991 到 2011 的增加比例同步增长。真是这样的话，那么当亚裔
18 岁到 21 岁的人数达到 1991 年人数的五倍时，长春藤学校的学生应该全部是亚裔
才可能避免种族歧视的标签。这也太离谱了吧？
iii）仅从华裔人口增加的细节来看，众所周知，大陆来的小留学生数目在 1991 到
2011 爆增。从台湾来的也不会减少。而这些群体至少部分解释了为什么亚裔 18 岁到
21 岁的人数在 1991 到 2011 增加很多。请问，这些人都是聪明绝顶的该上长春藤学
校的学生吗？乖乖，很多从大陆来的小留学生，在大陆根本考不上正经大学！
因此，该图混淆数目和百分比的关系，误导读者，犯了逻辑错误。该文作者不了解亚裔
年龄段人数增长的原因，忽视了其它可以解释统计数字的原因，同样是逻辑错误。
4) TJ (from Wiki: the class of 2014 having a majority of Asians[8] at 57.5%.)
前面说的 over-representation 又用上了。TJ 高中的生源决大多数是住在 Fairfax
County, VA 的居民。而 Fairfax County, VA 的居民有 17.5% 是亚裔。没有考
虑 AA ，TJ 亚裔 over-representation = 57.5/17.5 = 329% ，还是小于考虑
了 AA 的藤校的亚裔 over-representation （340%）。藤校哪里有歧视了？
再者，TJ 毕业生纷纷被包括藤校在内的精英学校录取，更说明了精英学校似乎并没有
歧视亚裔学生，至少没有歧视从 TJ 毕业的亚裔学生。
后记，我一个化学工作者还要给你这个整天和数据打交道的人上如何分析数据的课，咋
整的？
family
【在 c********r 的大作中提到】
: 嗯，当年天才扎堆的某牛校的#1学生质疑，我老得重视一下。
: beida101说 "美国的精英学校招不到聪明的穷孩子,但是如果你是一个聪明的穷孩子，
: 而且考上了 TJHSST 或者 Northside College Prep， 那你上精英大学的几率几乎是百
: 分之百！"
: beida101又说 "诸位如果是伯乐，知道哪个穷孩子成绩好，可要鼓励他（她）申请精英
: 大学哟！第一步是让他（她）考上四大高中：Whitney Young, Northside College
: Prep, Walter Payton, Jones"
: 芝加哥这四所学校每年“择优“选择一千二三百人，其中40%来至于low income family
: .说这五百人都能上精英大学，这baida101不就是跟当初辩论AA一样睁着眼睛说瞎话么
: 。最鄙视这种无脑无立场冒牌liberals.
|
|
|
d*****a
发帖数: 3983 | 91 No time check all messaage. Just want to say ur picture not support ur point
.
Don't. Wu4 Dao3 other people!
family
【在 c********r 的大作中提到】
: 嗯，当年天才扎堆的某牛校的#1学生质疑，我老得重视一下。
: beida101说 "美国的精英学校招不到聪明的穷孩子,但是如果你是一个聪明的穷孩子，
: 而且考上了 TJHSST 或者 Northside College Prep， 那你上精英大学的几率几乎是百
: 分之百！"
: beida101又说 "诸位如果是伯乐，知道哪个穷孩子成绩好，可要鼓励他（她）申请精英
: 大学哟！第一步是让他（她）考上四大高中：Whitney Young, Northside College
: Prep, Walter Payton, Jones"
: 芝加哥这四所学校每年“择优“选择一千二三百人，其中40%来至于low income family
: .说这五百人都能上精英大学，这baida101不就是跟当初辩论AA一样睁着眼睛说瞎话么
: 。最鄙视这种无脑无立场冒牌liberals.
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 92 这不许多人试图用数据分析的方法证明有歧视嘛，我在网上看到的一些对一篇数据分析
的文章的评论。
Source:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-ame
1)Jewess says:
December 29, 2012 at 8:02 pm
The statistical analysis used in this article is flawed. The author uses
last names to identify the religion (or birth heritage) of NMS semifinalists
? Are you serious? My son was a (recent) National Merit Finalist and
graduated from an ivy league university. His mother is Jewish; his father is
not, thus he has a decidedly WASP surname and according to the author’s
methods he would have been classified as WASP. With the growing numbers of
interfaith and mixed-race children how can anyone draw conclusions about
race and religion in the meritocracy or even “IQ” argument? Anecdotally,
my son reported that nearly half his classmates at his ivy league were at
least one-quarter Jewish (one or more parents or one grandparent). To use
last names (in lieu of actual demographic data) to make the conclusion that
Jews are being admitted to ivies at higher rates than similarly qualified
Asians is irresponsible.
2) Recent Graduate says:
December 25, 2012 at 5:11 pm
Concerning the drop in non-Jewish white enrollment:
I am a recent graduate of a top public high school, where I was a NMS,
individual state champion in Academic Decathlon, perfect ACT score, National
AP Scholar, etc. etc. Many of my friends – almost exclusively white and
Asian – had similar backgrounds and were eminently qualified for Ivy. None
of us even applied Ivy, let alone considered going there. Why? At $60,000/yr
, the cost is simply not worth it, since none of us would have been offered
anything close to substantial financial aid and our parents were unable/
unwilling to fully fund our educations. Meanwhile, my Asian friends applied
to as many Ivies as they could because it was understood that (a) their
parents would foot the bill if they got in or (b) they would take on a large
debt load in order to do it.
This article discounts financial self-selection, which (at least based on my
own, anecdotal evidence) is more prevalent than we tend to think.
3) chris rowe says:
December 25, 2012 at 2:23 pm
I’ve been an SAT tutor for a long time in West Los Angeles (a heavily Asian
city), and I feel that at least some of Asians’ over-representation in SAT
scores and NMS finalists is due to Asian parents putting massive time and
money into driving their children’s success in those very statistics.
In my experience, Asian parents are more likely than other parents to
attempt to ramrod their kids through test prep in order to increase their
scores. For example, the few students I’ve ever had preparing for the PSAT
— most students prepare only for the SAT — were all Asian.
Naturally, because it’s so strange to be preparing for what is supposed to
be a practice test, I asked these parents why their 9th or 10th grade child
was in this class, and the answer was that they wanted to do well on the
PSAT because of its use in the NMS! Similarly, many Asian immigrants send
their children to “cram school” every day after regular school lets out (
and I myself have taught SAT at one of these institutions), essentially
having their students tutored in every academic subject year-round from
early in elementary school.
Because whites are unlikely to do this, it would seem to me that the
resulting Asian academic achievement is analogous to baseball players who
use steroids having better stats than baseball players who do not.
It seems reasonable that the “merit” in “meritocracy” need not be based
solely on test scores and grades, and that therefore a race-based quota
system is not the only conclusion that one can draw from a decrease in the
attendance rate of hard-driving test-preppers. Maybe the university didn’t
want to fill its dorms with grade-grubbers who are never seen because they’
re holed up in the library 20 hours a day, and grade-grubbers just happen to
be over-represented in the Asian population?
Unz’s piece analyzes only the data that lead up to college — when the
Asian parents’ academic influence over their children is absolute —
whereas the Ivy League schools he criticizes are most concerned with what
their students do during and after college. Is the kid who went to cram
school his entire life as likely to join student organizations? To continue
practicing his four instruments once his mom isn’t forcing him to take
lessons 4 days a week? To start companies and give money to his university?
Or did he just peak early because his parents were working him so hard in
order to get him into that college?
4) Michael M says:
December 25, 2012 at 6:18 pm
Three points:
1. The author ignores the role that class plays in setting kids up for
success. At one point he notes, “Given that Asians accounted for just 1.5
percent of the population in 1980 and often lived in relatively impoverished
immigrant families. . .” When I was at Harvard in the mid-1980s, there
were two distinct groups of Asian students: children of doctors, academics,
scientists and businesspeople who came from educated families in China,
Korea and Vietnam, and therefore grew up with both strong educational values
and parental resources to push them; and a much smaller group of kids from
Chinatown and Southeast Asian communities, whose parents were usually
working class and uneducated. The second group were at a severe disadvantage
to the first, who were able to claim “diversity” without really having to
suffer for it.
I would expect you’d see the same difference among higher-caste educated
South Asian Brahmins and Indians from middle and lower castes or from places
like Guyana.
2. It is ridiculous to put South Asians and East Asians in the same category
as “Asian.” They have different cultural traditions and immigration
histories. Ask any Indian parent what race they are and they’ll answer “
Caucasian.” Grouping them without any kind of assessment of how they might
be different undermines the credibility of the author.
3. The takeaway is not that affirmative action is damaging opportunities for
whites, but that whites are losing against Asians. The percentage of
Hispanic and Black students at leading schools is still tiny. Hence, if
invisible quotas for Asians are lifted, there will be far fewer white
students at these schools. This isn’t because of any conspiracy, but
because white students are scoring lower than the competition on the
relevant entry requirements. I would love to see an article in this
publication titled, “Why White Students Are Deficient.” How about some
more writing about “The White Student Achievement Gap?” |
w**********9
发帖数: 1058 | 93 先给大家说声对不起，因为想骂两句脏话。
靠，NM的没完没了了？前面都说了让你做好研究再出来喷，你还没记性？亏你M的还是
学理工的，做好功课，别出来喷粪都不知道？这么些年你怎么糊弄过来的？
别的不说，随便查一下，都能查到AA对招生的影响。有很多的研究都是基于几个“race
blind”（禁止AA）的州里顶级公立学校的招生比例的变化来说明的。以加州为例，
1998年开始禁止AA，在1994年的时候，黑人和拉丁裔占高中毕业生的38%，在UC系列，
这两种族占了学生比例的18%。快进到AA终止10年后的2008，黑人和拉丁裔接近高中毕
业生的50%，但在UC系列，这两种占了学生比例只有20%。
这个影响最大的是在顶级的公立学校，因为他们对学生的成绩要求高，对普通的公立学
校影响并不是太大。在USNews前50名的公立学校，从1995年到2003年，因为ban AA的影
响，黑人和拉丁裔学生分别下降了30%和27%。
这些都是有研究结果的，随便搜一下就能查到。你是脑子被猪啃了，还是别的毛病？
穷的
裔
的
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 1）什么是精英学校？HMPSY？ 太少了吧？去首页的文章查一下原文的定义。什么是穷的
: 聪明孩子？去首页的文章找一下标准再发飙。你要是认为上了四大高中的孩子都＂聪明
: ＂得足以上HMPSY，那我对你的＂聪明＂程度表示怀疑。文章的主旨是说部分"聪明的穷
: 孩子"根本没申请精英学校。你认为他们全都申请了，就不关我的事了。
: 2）为证明所谓的藤校歧视亚裔生现象，许多人试图 通过＂统计＂数据来说明。比如，
: 加州公校招生不考虑 AA （虽然加州是铁杆民主党的天下），结果其亚裔学生占 40%。
: 藤校考虑 AA，结果亚裔学生仅占 17%！这是不是歧视？嘿嘿，还真不见得是。因为，
: 加州公校的主要生源是加州居民；加州人口有近 15% 是亚裔；不考虑 AA ，导致亚裔
: over-representation 达到 40/15 = 266%。再看看考虑了AA 的藤校：全美人口亚裔只
: 占 5%；换算成亚裔 over-representation = 17/5 = 340%！340% > 266%。考虑了AA 的
|
h**r
发帖数: 8078 | 94 呵呵，是原本就是猪脑子吧
race
【在 w**********9 的大作中提到】
: 先给大家说声对不起，因为想骂两句脏话。
: 靠，NM的没完没了了？前面都说了让你做好研究再出来喷，你还没记性？亏你M的还是
: 学理工的，做好功课，别出来喷粪都不知道？这么些年你怎么糊弄过来的？
: 别的不说，随便查一下，都能查到AA对招生的影响。有很多的研究都是基于几个“race
: blind”（禁止AA）的州里顶级公立学校的招生比例的变化来说明的。以加州为例，
: 1998年开始禁止AA，在1994年的时候，黑人和拉丁裔占高中毕业生的38%，在UC系列，
: 这两种族占了学生比例的18%。快进到AA终止10年后的2008，黑人和拉丁裔接近高中毕
: 业生的50%，但在UC系列，这两种占了学生比例只有20%。
: 这个影响最大的是在顶级的公立学校，因为他们对学生的成绩要求高，对普通的公立学
: 校影响并不是太大。在USNews前50名的公立学校，从1995年到2003年，因为ban AA的影
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N********n
发帖数: 13236 | 95 有人说它脑子正常，只是拿钱，人为财死，鸟为食亡罢了。
可是看看它偏执的样子，把自己的半裸照铺天盖地的贴，看来我们得委屈一下猪了。。。
【在 h**r 的大作中提到】
: 呵呵，是原本就是猪脑子吧
:
: race
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w**********9
发帖数: 1058 | |
h**r
发帖数: 8078 | 97 呵呵，大叔够狠
。。
【在 N********n 的大作中提到】
: 有人说它脑子正常，只是拿钱，人为财死，鸟为食亡罢了。
: 可是看看它偏执的样子，把自己的半裸照铺天盖地的贴，看来我们得委屈一下猪了。。。
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B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 98 • In 2009, 52% of black students graduated from high school, only 16%
met the A-G requirements for admission to the University of California (UC)
or California State University (CSU) and
only half (8%) enrolled in one of those two systems.
• In 2009, only 36% of black high school graduates went directly to a
California public college or university, down from 48% in 1990.
• Of black students who do go to college, over two thirds start at a
California Community College, and only one in four earn a certificate,
associate degree, or transfer after six years.
• Black community college students are the least likely to follow
successful enrollment patterns and complete the lowest percentage of credits
attempted (49%) compared to Whites (67%), Asian Pacific Islanders (71%),
and Latinos (58%).
• Of black community college students who do transfer to a four-year
university, only 31% transfer into a UC or CSU (compared to 48% of whites);
more than 40% transfer to colleges outside California; and 19% to a for-
profit college, the highest rate of any ethnic group. |
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 99 黑人在加州也就两百万人，占加州人口的７％左右。多数属于低收入家庭，其教育程度
也是最差的族裔。加州公立大学中如果有７％黑人学生，也就是正常的了；over-
representation = 100%。如果他们不能得到良好的教育，那就会 _______ |
h**r
发帖数: 8078 | 100 晕死啊，这思维，加州公立学校只招加州的学生？
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 黑人在加州也就两百万人，占加州人口的７％左右。多数属于低收入家庭，其教育程度
: 也是最差的族裔。加州公立大学中如果有７％黑人学生，也就是正常的了；over-
: representation = 100%。如果他们不能得到良好的教育，那就会 _______
|
|
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a*****g
发帖数: 19398 | 101 over-represented 是最垃圾的词
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 黑人在加州也就两百万人，占加州人口的７％左右。多数属于低收入家庭，其教育程度
: 也是最差的族裔。加州公立大学中如果有７％黑人学生，也就是正常的了；over-
: representation = 100%。如果他们不能得到良好的教育，那就会 _______
|
d*****k
发帖数: 310 | 102 垃圾人用垃圾词， 非要讲over。
那over-spending, over-reproducing, over-fucking, over-violent,???????
beida 来给解释一下？
【在 a*****g 的大作中提到】
: over-represented 是最垃圾的词
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d*****k
发帖数: 310 | 103 这才是强盗逻辑， 如果他们不能得到良好的教育，那就会好吃懒做， 杀人放火？
如果不是你们这帮左棍把持， 那就全部死刑了。 良民的命不是命， 杀人犯的命倒是
命了。
那AA这么多年， CPS的毕业率有提高吗？ 有用吗？？
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: 黑人在加州也就两百万人，占加州人口的７％左右。多数属于低收入家庭，其教育程度
: 也是最差的族裔。加州公立大学中如果有７％黑人学生，也就是正常的了；over-
: representation = 100%。如果他们不能得到良好的教育，那就会 _______
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 104 And the reason?
It is just an English word. Much better than those four-letter words tossed
around here.
【在 a*****g 的大作中提到】
: over-represented 是最垃圾的词
|
g******4
发帖数: 6339 | 105
point
笑姐, is "Wu4 Dao3" misleading ?
【在 d*****a 的大作中提到】
: No time check all messaage. Just want to say ur picture not support ur point
: .
: Don't. Wu4 Dao3 other people!
:
: family
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a*****g
发帖数: 19398 | 106 说 over-represented ，总是 assume 某些东西应该平等、均的
这个 assume 就不对的
tossed
child!
【在 B******1 的大作中提到】
: And the reason?
: It is just an English word. Much better than those four-letter words tossed
: around here.
|
B******1
发帖数: 9094 | 107 Over-represented is similar to the word disproportional. It only denotes
that one distribution pattern does not follow another distribution pattern.
Whether the former pattern is fair or unfair is another question. What
causes this disproportionality is in disbute.
The word itself is innocent.
【在 a*****g 的大作中提到】
: 说 over-represented ，总是 assume 某些东西应该平等、均的
: 这个 assume 就不对的
:
: tossed
: child!
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