O****e
发帖数: 3290 | 1 Play by the rule as simple as that.
It is the only thing that is tangible and can be proved. Unfortunately, it
is often forgotten in a heated moral discussion or some seemingly convincing
finger pointing or some speculations by smart people one way or the other.
I feel disgusted by what USADA is doing especially under such a high moral
flag. They should spend the money on improving anti-doping program and drug
detection technology.
I like what Eddy Merckx said
"Lance was always very correct during his career. What more can he do? All
the tests he's undertaken, more than 500 since 2000, have come back negative
. So, either the tests don't count for anything, or Armstrong is 'legit'.
"The entire process (against him) is founded on witnesses. It's deeply
unjust." |
t****u
发帖数: 10218 | 2 One correct thing Lance Armstrong has been doing is donating money to UCI.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/26/cycling-cle
convincing
drug
negative
【在 O****e 的大作中提到】
: Play by the rule as simple as that.
: It is the only thing that is tangible and can be proved. Unfortunately, it
: is often forgotten in a heated moral discussion or some seemingly convincing
: finger pointing or some speculations by smart people one way or the other.
: I feel disgusted by what USADA is doing especially under such a high moral
: flag. They should spend the money on improving anti-doping program and drug
: detection technology.
: I like what Eddy Merckx said
: "Lance was always very correct during his career. What more can he do? All
: the tests he's undertaken, more than 500 since 2000, have come back negative
|
p********r
发帖数: 3799 | 3 这几天，我就想，Contador应该笑坏了，他药检没过，才被禁赛2年，stripped ONE
title. |
p********r
发帖数: 3799 | 4 是的，UCI一直backup Lance Amstrong,具体什么原因，就不多说了。我相信，Lance
amstrong应该不是唯一的一个捐钱的....
还有，这几年的TDF，越来越没看头，和前几年的course比起来，平了好多，sprinter
越来越占优势.....这是不是和anti-doping的力度加大有关呢.....
【在 t****u 的大作中提到】
: One correct thing Lance Armstrong has been doing is donating money to UCI.
: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/26/cycling-cle
:
: convincing
: drug
: negative
|
h******2
发帖数: 1498 | 5 Lance Armstrong本人，其实不是问题的症结。rules不是他定的，他只不过是play by
the rules，愿赌服输而已。而且他已经名利双收了。
问题是大部分cycling governing body和race organizer 对doping采取blind eye的态
度，其结果是pro cycling的WWF化，这个对于amateur来说是很可悲的，大众眼里，pro
cycling 就是doping contest, 不管这个主观结论是对还是错，这个最终结果是很失
败的。
so, in the end, everyone loses, except for the people/companies who made
loads of $$ along the way.
所以，最操蛋的是UCI。 |
u*********s
发帖数: 2077 | 6 普通大众也无所谓吧， 跟一般人也没啥关系....
切合自身利益的， 当然会斗得死去活来， 成王败寇.....
至于USADA为啥会死追Lance不放， 就不太清楚了....
by
pro
【在 h******2 的大作中提到】
: Lance Armstrong本人，其实不是问题的症结。rules不是他定的，他只不过是play by
: the rules，愿赌服输而已。而且他已经名利双收了。
: 问题是大部分cycling governing body和race organizer 对doping采取blind eye的态
: 度，其结果是pro cycling的WWF化，这个对于amateur来说是很可悲的，大众眼里，pro
: cycling 就是doping contest, 不管这个主观结论是对还是错，这个最终结果是很失
: 败的。
: so, in the end, everyone loses, except for the people/companies who made
: loads of $$ along the way.
: 所以，最操蛋的是UCI。
|
h******2
发帖数: 1498 | 7 USADA is partly funded by White House Office of National Drug Control Policy
(ONDCP). So if it wants to maintain the gvmt funding, it has to show that
the budget is producing results, so they go after high profile athletes. |
u*********s
发帖数: 2077 | 8 Lance为啥不给他们也donate一些呢....
Policy
that
【在 h******2 的大作中提到】
: USADA is partly funded by White House Office of National Drug Control Policy
: (ONDCP). So if it wants to maintain the gvmt funding, it has to show that
: the budget is producing results, so they go after high profile athletes.
|
h******2
发帖数: 1498 | 9 Then some reporter will dig it out, and some politician will lose their job,
and they will lose the White House funding for sure.
Scandals :)
【在 u*********s 的大作中提到】
: Lance为啥不给他们也donate一些呢....
:
: Policy
: that
|
u*********s
发帖数: 2077 | 10 当然不能公开donate了， Lance的fund好像有500M, 比goverment fund
估计大多了....Lance估计也是耿直又自傲的一个人，不愿意妥协，
宁愿鱼死网破....
job,
【在 h******2 的大作中提到】
: Then some reporter will dig it out, and some politician will lose their job,
: and they will lose the White House funding for sure.
: Scandals :)
|
|
|
u*********s
发帖数: 2077 | 11 其实就算不好看，我也是支持加大anti-doping力度的，
毕竟TdF上百年的历史，大规模doping也就是最近10几年的事吧...
sprinter
【在 p********r 的大作中提到】
: 是的，UCI一直backup Lance Amstrong,具体什么原因，就不多说了。我相信，Lance
: amstrong应该不是唯一的一个捐钱的....
: 还有，这几年的TDF，越来越没看头，和前几年的course比起来，平了好多，sprinter
: 越来越占优势.....这是不是和anti-doping的力度加大有关呢.....
|
n******d
发帖数: 3583 | 12 不doping也应该会很好看的,TDF也没有什么赛道纪录需要破，要的只是完成
【在 u*********s 的大作中提到】
: 其实就算不好看，我也是支持加大anti-doping力度的，
: 毕竟TdF上百年的历史，大规模doping也就是最近10几年的事吧...
:
: sprinter
|
p********r
发帖数: 3799 | 13 不止.
TDF从一开始，就是doped race,40s年以前是合法的，50年以后才有的anti-doping.
【在 u*********s 的大作中提到】
: 其实就算不好看，我也是支持加大anti-doping力度的，
: 毕竟TdF上百年的历史，大规模doping也就是最近10几年的事吧...
:
: sprinter
|
p********r
发帖数: 3799 | 14 TDF为体育做出的另一个贡献就是促进了 doping and anti-doping的发展。 |
p********y
发帖数: 5141 | 15 没错，而且这两个的发展是相辅相成的。
看这篇报道里的第二个视频。
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19364384
【在 p********r 的大作中提到】
: TDF为体育做出的另一个贡献就是促进了 doping and anti-doping的发展。
|
p********r
发帖数: 3799 | 16 视频里看到了Contador....他现在是要偷着乐了吧...
我觉得TDF和cycling本身，还是个伟大的体育项目，不管有没有doping的影响，我还是
喜欢这项运动，每年7月还是会看TDF.
re
【在 p********y 的大作中提到】
: 没错，而且这两个的发展是相辅相成的。
: 看这篇报道里的第二个视频。
: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-19364384
|
p********y
发帖数: 5141 | 17 完全同意。真正喜欢这项运动的人，还是会继续喜欢这项运动的。传说中的真爱？ No
matter better or worse...
【在 p********r 的大作中提到】
: 视频里看到了Contador....他现在是要偷着乐了吧...
: 我觉得TDF和cycling本身，还是个伟大的体育项目，不管有没有doping的影响，我还是
: 喜欢这项运动，每年7月还是会看TDF.
: re
|
R*****s
发帖数: 41236 | 18 胳膊壮在TdF的百年历史里也只是一个插曲而已， 没人会因为一个人
否定一个比赛，甚至一项运动...
只不过历史上很多伟人其实都是禁不住仔细推敲的， 普通人往往只能
看到光彩的一面而已...把任何一个人放在Lance现在这个位置， 也只
能死不认帐了....其实如果不是USADA有非常确凿的证据在手， 以他的
性格， 绝对不会不fight back的.....
【在 p********r 的大作中提到】
: 视频里看到了Contador....他现在是要偷着乐了吧...
: 我觉得TDF和cycling本身，还是个伟大的体育项目，不管有没有doping的影响，我还是
: 喜欢这项运动，每年7月还是会看TDF.
: re
|
R*****s
发帖数: 41236 | 19 你也可以说其实奥运会也就是个doping and anti-doping的历史...
其实不管怎样， Olympic games也就是个game, no need to get
too serious about it....
【在 p********r 的大作中提到】
: TDF为体育做出的另一个贡献就是促进了 doping and anti-doping的发展。
|
t****u
发帖数: 10218 | 20 这话实在。Pro sports也是如此。
【在 R*****s 的大作中提到】
: 你也可以说其实奥运会也就是个doping and anti-doping的历史...
: 其实不管怎样， Olympic games也就是个game, no need to get
: too serious about it....
|
|
|
h******2
发帖数: 1498 | 21 其实cycling是很多种不同的运动。即使road cycling里面也分不同种。
recreational rider和racer之间差别很大，基本上大家生活在不同的平行宇宙里面。
racer里面，cat4/5和cat3，cat3和cat1/2，cat1/2和pro，之间，又有天壤之别。
普通rec rider和pro之间，那是差了好几个宇宙。所以LA dope什么的，除了是灌水骂
娘的好题材，基本上跟咱们的现实没什么关系。 |
u*********s
发帖数: 2077 | 22 that's true. 其实很多足球迷也本身不踢球， 一个道理...
车版我最佩服的其实是上次骑个入门cyclocross12小时完成STP的老山，
还有那个刚学骑车没多久， 就5小时完成100迈那个MM....
这些生活中的例子感觉跟自己更有connection一些....Lance给我的
感觉跟宇航员差不多，的确佩服，但没有太多共呤...
【在 h******2 的大作中提到】
: 其实cycling是很多种不同的运动。即使road cycling里面也分不同种。
: recreational rider和racer之间差别很大，基本上大家生活在不同的平行宇宙里面。
: racer里面，cat4/5和cat3，cat3和cat1/2，cat1/2和pro，之间，又有天壤之别。
: 普通rec rider和pro之间，那是差了好几个宇宙。所以LA dope什么的，除了是灌水骂
: 娘的好题材，基本上跟咱们的现实没什么关系。
|
J********e
发帖数: 2284 | 23 我的车友里面有些人对此议论了几天，也没见得是什么大的波澜- 主要是大伙早有心理
准备了。
我自己么？一点影响没有。主要的原因是，我是个rider，但不是cycling fans。 |
n******d
发帖数: 3583 | 24 Fan可以不ride, 可是rider怎么能不饭呢？
【在 J********e 的大作中提到】
: 我的车友里面有些人对此议论了几天，也没见得是什么大的波澜- 主要是大伙早有心理
: 准备了。
: 我自己么？一点影响没有。主要的原因是，我是个rider，但不是cycling fans。
|
h******2
发帖数: 1498 | 25 偶像们都在逗扑，叫咱怎么饭。
【在 n******d 的大作中提到】
: Fan可以不ride, 可是rider怎么能不饭呢？
|
u*********s
发帖数: 2077 | 26 你这不叫真爱..
【在 h******2 的大作中提到】
: 偶像们都在逗扑，叫咱怎么饭。
|
p********e
发帖数: 16048 | 27 rider应该都知道他们是doping的 所以可以不fan
【在 n******d 的大作中提到】
: Fan可以不ride, 可是rider怎么能不饭呢？
|
O****e
发帖数: 3290 | 28 It's certainly part of the scandal which I am aware of. I just want to share
my two cents of thoughts:
1. Is such donation allowed by the rule?
2. If it is allowed by the rule but is not considered a good thing to do,
these ppl who spread the scandal should try to make the rule changed. There
are certainly higher courts than UCI to appeal to.
3. If it is not allowed by the rule, they should go after UCI.
4. In light of 3., a scandal remains a scandal without an investigation.
5. People have the freedom to believe or not believe such a scandal. That's
probably one of the reason Lance has been controversial since his first tour
win.
【在 t****u 的大作中提到】
: One correct thing Lance Armstrong has been doing is donating money to UCI.
: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/26/cycling-cle
:
: convincing
: drug
: negative
|
t****u
发帖数: 10218 | 29 The article I cited was mainly pointing at UCI. I'm not trying to criticize
your post, just to offer what some other people's opinions.
Here is one more interesting piece to read:
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/08/the-armstrong-fallout-t
The Live Strong foundation will not do as well as before, which is a setback
to the cause.
share
There
s
tour
【在 O****e 的大作中提到】
: It's certainly part of the scandal which I am aware of. I just want to share
: my two cents of thoughts:
: 1. Is such donation allowed by the rule?
: 2. If it is allowed by the rule but is not considered a good thing to do,
: these ppl who spread the scandal should try to make the rule changed. There
: are certainly higher courts than UCI to appeal to.
: 3. If it is not allowed by the rule, they should go after UCI.
: 4. In light of 3., a scandal remains a scandal without an investigation.
: 5. People have the freedom to believe or not believe such a scandal. That's
: probably one of the reason Lance has been controversial since his first tour
|
i*********5
发帖数: 19210 | 30 I know. It's a pity. I'll still wear my LiveStrong yellow band (and keep
breaking Rule #51).
criticize
setback
【在 t****u 的大作中提到】
: The article I cited was mainly pointing at UCI. I'm not trying to criticize
: your post, just to offer what some other people's opinions.
: Here is one more interesting piece to read:
: http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/08/the-armstrong-fallout-t
: The Live Strong foundation will not do as well as before, which is a setback
: to the cause.
:
: share
: There
: s
|
|
|
j*********r
发帖数: 654 | 31 "This is arguably the biggest fraud in the history of sport. Bernie Madoff
would be proud. Maybe even jealous."
http://m.bicycling.com/news/featured-stories/injustice-all |
J********e
发帖数: 2284 | 32 怎么能怎么能怎么能怎么能怎么能怎么能呢？
象我这样TDF每两三天就瞄一眼结果的，除了Armstrong，别人的照片和名字都对不上号
的，一直把sky 和 quick step搞混的。还不是照样越骑越爽越练越快。
【在 n******d 的大作中提到】
: Fan可以不ride, 可是rider怎么能不饭呢？
|
n******d
发帖数: 3583 | 33 没说清楚，可以饭这项运动，而不是不是饭具体哪个人。看那些比赛，精彩的就是那些
个attack，chasing……是谁真的不重要，呵呵。和你一样，我也分不清人，而且我看
球，打球，搞了半天，也没记住几个人，呵呵
【在 J********e 的大作中提到】
: 怎么能怎么能怎么能怎么能怎么能怎么能呢？
: 象我这样TDF每两三天就瞄一眼结果的，除了Armstrong，别人的照片和名字都对不上号
: 的，一直把sky 和 quick step搞混的。还不是照样越骑越爽越练越快。
|
j********l
发帖数: 551 | 34 Amen!
另外从Amstrong整Christophe Bassons和Greg LeMond看，这小子也很操蛋。跟UCI穿一
条裤子。可惜报应晚了点，让这小子赚足了。
by
pro
【在 h******2 的大作中提到】
: Lance Armstrong本人，其实不是问题的症结。rules不是他定的，他只不过是play by
: the rules，愿赌服输而已。而且他已经名利双收了。
: 问题是大部分cycling governing body和race organizer 对doping采取blind eye的态
: 度，其结果是pro cycling的WWF化，这个对于amateur来说是很可悲的，大众眼里，pro
: cycling 就是doping contest, 不管这个主观结论是对还是错，这个最终结果是很失
: 败的。
: so, in the end, everyone loses, except for the people/companies who made
: loads of $$ along the way.
: 所以，最操蛋的是UCI。
|
O****e
发帖数: 3290 | 35 Hey buddy, don't get me wrong. I am just offerring my view too as I do have
trouble with any kind of scandal. I am also a true believer of dual process.
If you look at the whole history of cycling from openly doping to some
symbolic doping control to more serious dopong control to more and more
complicated doping control policies and programs, cycling is making progress
for better and in this respect UCI has done his job probably better than
any other sport professional or not. After all, cycling is the most
scrutinized and cyclists the most tested in the world of sports. No one is
perfect especially when it comes to political organization.
Changing a culture that has a deeply rooted history of doping is certainly
not easy. We also have to bear in mind doping in cycling was not considered
a shame in public in the very early days. Yes, drug test alone may never win
in a race against drug development. But, one has to have faith in human
nature to compete clean. Once the culture shifts and once a cyclist does not
have to make decision between either doping or leave the sport, that's when
the war on doping will turn around. And, from what I read it is happenning
now. And, one of the key to achiev it is to have fair rules and fair process
to enforce them. And, these rules and processes have to be respected by
both athletes and governing body especiaLly the latter.
To some extent, USADA's way of going after Lance reminds me of 中国曾经的严
打 which produces more trajedies to innocent families than help with the
societies. I have fundamental troule with such kind of process.
criticize
setback
【在 t****u 的大作中提到】
: The article I cited was mainly pointing at UCI. I'm not trying to criticize
: your post, just to offer what some other people's opinions.
: Here is one more interesting piece to read:
: http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/08/the-armstrong-fallout-t
: The Live Strong foundation will not do as well as before, which is a setback
: to the cause.
:
: share
: There
: s
|
j*********r
发帖数: 654 | 36 For commentator Frank Deford, doping is the worst sin an athlete can commit.
"But drugs — Lance Armstrong on the highest level, and lesser lights like
Melky Cabrera and Bartolo Colon — don't just poison the game.
They poison our faith. It's only natural now that every rational person must
at least wonder whenever any athlete, no matter how revered, does something
exceptional. We've been surprised too often, disillusioned too often,
suckered too often, hurt too often.
So eventually, we might doubt all the bodies. And if you doubt the voices,
there is no opera; if you doubt the bodies, there is no sport. It becomes
just another entertainment with special effects.
That's why drugs are more of a threat to sport than all the other abuses and
deceits put together."
http://www.npr.org/2012/08/29/160167958/just-say-no-doping-dimi |
