c****1
发帖数: 457 | 1 5/10 game.
hero (1700) 3 bet 4 times and win them all without showdown, villain (~2000)
is a decent LAG regular, 3 bet a couple of times, and call others' 3-bet
almost 80% of times (but fold to c-bet about 60%), very aggressive and like
to steal and make big bet bluff.
preflop: all fold to button villain, who raise to 35. hero at BB with 4h9h,
3-bet to 80. The idea is that, players at the table give hero's 3 bet too
much credit and most likely perceive hero's 3-bet range at high end (two
high cards or high pocket pair). So if low cards like 4 or 9 hit the board,
I may get value from button's floating. Also, I want to win the hand with
showdown so that to balance my 3 bet range, so that I can win big 3-bet pot
with premium hand later on, so that villain got tilt and pay me off later by
bad bluff.
flop: 3h5d6h. I cant expect better flop, straight and flush draw. I bet 105,
villain smooth call.
turn: Jh, complete my flush. considered about 2-barrel, but since villain
like to bluff in position, so decided to check raise the turn. I check,
villain bet 175. When I want to push foward the chips for the check raise, I
just feel that if I raise here, he almost fold all his bluff range and his
value range (higher flush) will suck out all my chips (150BB left). So I
changed my mind and just called. by calling, I keep the pot small and give
him the chance to hang himself on river.
river, another heart. I have to check here, he bet 400. what would you do???
Any comment? especially 3 options on turn. Bet, check-raise or check call | n*****t
发帖数: 190 | 2 So sick! I'd like to fold here.
2000)
like
,
,
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: 5/10 game.
: hero (1700) 3 bet 4 times and win them all without showdown, villain (~2000)
: is a decent LAG regular, 3 bet a couple of times, and call others' 3-bet
: almost 80% of times (but fold to c-bet about 60%), very aggressive and like
: to steal and make big bet bluff.
: preflop: all fold to button villain, who raise to 35. hero at BB with 4h9h,
: 3-bet to 80. The idea is that, players at the table give hero's 3 bet too
: much credit and most likely perceive hero's 3-bet range at high end (two
: high cards or high pocket pair). So if low cards like 4 or 9 hit the board,
: I may get value from button's floating. Also, I want to win the hand with
| c****1
发帖数: 457 | 3 I folded. How would you play the turn?
【在 n*****t 的大作中提到】
: So sick! I'd like to fold here.
:
: 2000)
: like
: ,
: ,
| f*****g
发帖数: 15860 | 4 if he had a high heart, turn check raise wouldn't make much diff.
his river bet size was kind of fishy though.
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: I folded. How would you play the turn?
| p****r
发帖数: 9164 | 5 easy river call for me.
think about the calling range of villian on the flop. lot of straight
draw or pair with straight draw. villion put you on a big pair and trying to
stack you off based on villion's style. some small pp is in villian's
range as well.
I like the check/call on the turn. If you led or check/raise the turn,
you pretty much get worse hand to fold and better hand to call. By checking
/calling, you gave him chance value betting worse since he may put you on
two overs and bet his small pair or pair with str draw, also it gave him a
good chance to bluff. Certainly higher flush is part of villian's range, but
only a small portion of it.
the river bettting size made his range very polorized. He is not
betting Q of h or less for value there. There are tons of stright draw/ pr
with str draw in villian's range. you may run pokerstove to find out your
equality against villian's range.
this is one of the major leak of many non super thinking LAG reg- over
value the bluff opportunity of these scary card. You need go through how
the hand is played and his calling range and thought process to make the
most +EV play. I have this leak myself too.
Strongly recommend Phil.G's philasophy series. He called over 80k$ river
shove with TT against Zigi on KQQ86 board, when Zigi had J9, with a missed
str draw.
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: I folded. How would you play the turn?
| c******q
发帖数: 456 | 6 1
the river card actually helped you in certain way because it removed quite a
few better flush hands out of Villian's betting range. Plus your turn c/c
under-represented your hand strength. Consider both of these factors and 3
to 1 pot odds, I would call here.
easy river call for me.think about the calling range of villian on the flop.
lot of
★ Sent from iPhone App: iReader Mitbbs Lite 7.39
【在 p****r 的大作中提到】
: easy river call for me.
:
: think about the calling range of villian on the flop. lot of straight
: draw or pair with straight draw. villion put you on a big pair and trying to
: stack you off based on villion's style. some small pp is in villian's
: range as well.
:
: I like the check/call on the turn. If you led or check/raise the turn,
: you pretty much get worse hand to fold and better hand to call. By checking
: /calling, you gave him chance value betting worse since he may put you on
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 7 This turn is a definitely a check raise.
First of all, he might not be bluffing river once you called turn bet.
Second of all, more importantly, if they give you a lot of credit for 3 bet
preflop, you look very bluffy here with your range. The only strong hand
you can have is Ahxh, with very few combo of big x. The rest are over played
over pair + flush draw or pure semi bluff with Ah. I think you might just
get a few 3 bets with set 2 pair or even a nut flush draw if he is agro
simply because you can't rep a strong hand very much here. You also set
yourself with a good sized value bet facing a blank river.
Facing a good lag who is capable of reading hand and calling light, I think
check raise is no brainier here. Facing a nit who only play his hand and
won't continue with worse, then you played fine. As played, river is tough
decision. I think folding is slightly better.
BTW, I don't like the 3 bet preflop at all out of position deep facing a good
lag regular. Totally FPS here. | W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 8 To decide your turn action,I think the key here is 1) what is your read
towards this guy? How good this lag really is? 2) what image do you have? | p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 9 既然你turn上决定slow play，那就是你付出的代价，river 来个heart就认了呗
2000)
like
,
,
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: 5/10 game.
: hero (1700) 3 bet 4 times and win them all without showdown, villain (~2000)
: is a decent LAG regular, 3 bet a couple of times, and call others' 3-bet
: almost 80% of times (but fold to c-bet about 60%), very aggressive and like
: to steal and make big bet bluff.
: preflop: all fold to button villain, who raise to 35. hero at BB with 4h9h,
: 3-bet to 80. The idea is that, players at the table give hero's 3 bet too
: much credit and most likely perceive hero's 3-bet range at high end (two
: high cards or high pocket pair). So if low cards like 4 or 9 hit the board,
: I may get value from button's floating. Also, I want to win the hand with
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 10 认了是call 还是fold? 好像都可以认为哈。
【在 p*******p 的大作中提到】
: 既然你turn上决定slow play，那就是你付出的代价，river 来个heart就认了呗
:
: 2000)
: like
: ,
: ,
| | | n*****t
发帖数: 190 | 11 I may continue betting on the turn most of the time. But given the vilain's
table image, I may sometimes do as you did to trap the opponent. Your play
is great, but just got bad luck. As vilain's play, it's hard to judge if he
was bluffing. So folding is good.
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: I folded. How would you play the turn?
| p**********1
发帖数: 1458 | 12 if your plan was to give him the chance to hang himself on river, then call
the river. it's only half psb not an over bet. if villain likes to bluff,
this monotonic board is fairly ideal. by the way, what is the river, Ah/Kh?
2000)
like
,
,
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: 5/10 game.
: hero (1700) 3 bet 4 times and win them all without showdown, villain (~2000)
: is a decent LAG regular, 3 bet a couple of times, and call others' 3-bet
: almost 80% of times (but fold to c-bet about 60%), very aggressive and like
: to steal and make big bet bluff.
: preflop: all fold to button villain, who raise to 35. hero at BB with 4h9h,
: 3-bet to 80. The idea is that, players at the table give hero's 3 bet too
: much credit and most likely perceive hero's 3-bet range at high end (two
: high cards or high pocket pair). So if low cards like 4 or 9 hit the board,
: I may get value from button's floating. Also, I want to win the hand with
| g**s
发帖数: 1114 | 13 OOP play is always tough against good reg. For people who call others' 3-bet
almost 80% of times, I would not 3-bet this light OOP.
Bet/CR/CC on the turn has it's own merits. 3 bet 4 times and win them all
without showdown is a lot in live game(at least from my experiences). so I
would still bet on the turn, as he folds 60% on flop but not this time.
However if you check/call the turn, you show weakness, which is not a bad
thing at all but be prepared to see big bluff on the river. You got bad luck
for the heart river card, but still the bluff chance is very very high...
2000)
like
,
,
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: 5/10 game.
: hero (1700) 3 bet 4 times and win them all without showdown, villain (~2000)
: is a decent LAG regular, 3 bet a couple of times, and call others' 3-bet
: almost 80% of times (but fold to c-bet about 60%), very aggressive and like
: to steal and make big bet bluff.
: preflop: all fold to button villain, who raise to 35. hero at BB with 4h9h,
: 3-bet to 80. The idea is that, players at the table give hero's 3 bet too
: much credit and most likely perceive hero's 3-bet range at high end (two
: high cards or high pocket pair). So if low cards like 4 or 9 hit the board,
: I may get value from button's floating. Also, I want to win the hand with
| c****1
发帖数: 457 | 14 I paid $10 to see his cards, he had Ah5d, nut flush draw and a a pair on the
turn
call
【在 p**********1 的大作中提到】
: if your plan was to give him the chance to hang himself on river, then call
: the river. it's only half psb not an over bet. if villain likes to bluff,
: this monotonic board is fairly ideal. by the way, what is the river, Ah/Kh?
:
: 2000)
: like
: ,
: ,
| c****1
发帖数: 457 | 15 如果turn被3-bet，你就准备get in了？如果被人家higher flush cooler了，150BB是
不是有点多啊。我觉得他如果中了set 或者2 pair，应该会在flop raise 我。所以他
那种board下在turn bet，10% made flush, 40% semi bluff with all kinds of draw
, 50% weak hand bluffing (maybe has one pair but he think have no showdown
value). 但是那90%情况下我raise，他可能就fold了，我也赢不了多少，而那10%却一
下子输150BB，是不是有点多？ 按概率说 150BB*0.1< 50BB*0.9,似乎也应该get in。
bet
played
just
think
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: This turn is a definitely a check raise.
: First of all, he might not be bluffing river once you called turn bet.
: Second of all, more importantly, if they give you a lot of credit for 3 bet
: preflop, you look very bluffy here with your range. The only strong hand
: you can have is Ahxh, with very few combo of big x. The rest are over played
: over pair + flush draw or pure semi bluff with Ah. I think you might just
: get a few 3 bets with set 2 pair or even a nut flush draw if he is agro
: simply because you can't rep a strong hand very much here. You also set
: yourself with a good sized value bet facing a blank river.
: Facing a good lag who is capable of reading hand and calling light, I think
| c****1
发帖数: 457 | 16 那你对button raise的 3-bet range是什么，我总感觉如果3-bet oop 就是Aq+, 88+,
at most one gap SC, 这range还是太窄，赢不了大pot，容易被人家read。而且这么宅
的defending range ，我要是button，几乎是steal with any two cards.
bet
played
just
think
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: This turn is a definitely a check raise.
: First of all, he might not be bluffing river once you called turn bet.
: Second of all, more importantly, if they give you a lot of credit for 3 bet
: preflop, you look very bluffy here with your range. The only strong hand
: you can have is Ahxh, with very few combo of big x. The rest are over played
: over pair + flush draw or pure semi bluff with Ah. I think you might just
: get a few 3 bets with set 2 pair or even a nut flush draw if he is agro
: simply because you can't rep a strong hand very much here. You also set
: yourself with a good sized value bet facing a blank river.
: Facing a good lag who is capable of reading hand and calling light, I think
| g******s
发帖数: 211 | 17 The decision change on the turn: the stack is too deep to commit for a baby
flush. Even river a blank, you may not be willing to commit, either. | M********g
发帖数: 717 | 18 I am confused. what do u mean by "按概率说 150BB*0.1< 50BB*0.9"?
draw
。
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: 如果turn被3-bet，你就准备get in了？如果被人家higher flush cooler了，150BB是
: 不是有点多啊。我觉得他如果中了set 或者2 pair，应该会在flop raise 我。所以他
: 那种board下在turn bet，10% made flush, 40% semi bluff with all kinds of draw
: , 50% weak hand bluffing (maybe has one pair but he think have no showdown
: value). 但是那90%情况下我raise，他可能就fold了，我也赢不了多少，而那10%却一
: 下子输150BB，是不是有点多？ 按概率说 150BB*0.1< 50BB*0.9,似乎也应该get in。
:
: bet
: played
: just
| c****1
发帖数: 457 | 19 我还有150BB左右，10%可能性，他有higher flush，我输掉这150BB。pot里面已经大约
有500多的dead money，90%的可能性，我raise，他fold（假设我raise 够大，他不
chase他的flushdraw）。 那我赢50BB
所以EV= -150*0.1+50*0.9>0 , 所以check raise还是+EV的。其实只要他有made
flush的可能性<30%, check raise 应该是+EV
【在 M********g 的大作中提到】
: I am confused. what do u mean by "按概率说 150BB*0.1< 50BB*0.9"?
:
: draw
: 。
| p*******p
发帖数: 13670 | 20 认了当然是fold，call的那是死不肯认的心态啊
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: 认了是call 还是fold? 好像都可以认为哈。
| | | M********g
发帖数: 717 | 21 The calculation has flaws. If he was behind, you would win the hand at least
80% of the time on the river even if you did not cr the turn. So the ev
should be compared with 50*.9*.8, not 0.
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: 我还有150BB左右，10%可能性，他有higher flush，我输掉这150BB。pot里面已经大约
: 有500多的dead money，90%的可能性，我raise，他fold（假设我raise 够大，他不
: chase他的flushdraw）。 那我赢50BB
: 所以EV= -150*0.1+50*0.9>0 , 所以check raise还是+EV的。其实只要他有made
: flush的可能性<30%, check raise 应该是+EV
| c****1
发帖数: 457 | 22 some misunderstanding here, I assume he wont call my check raise with draws.
So only two scenarios, 1:)he had big made flush and come on top, 2:) he
fold to my check raise.
least
【在 M********g 的大作中提到】
: The calculation has flaws. If he was behind, you would win the hand at least
: 80% of the time on the river even if you did not cr the turn. So the ev
: should be compared with 50*.9*.8, not 0.
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 23 Yes if he 3 bets I would get it in. Of course that is if we assume he is a
good aggressive reg. 150bb is not too deep. If he is a good player, his
continuation range vs turn check raise should be a lot wider than a higher
flush because your range of flush is very limited. when our hand is
disguised we of course go straight for full value. So much value to have on
the turn when your range look weak, the hand i see that he can continue are
sets, 2 pair, over pair + a flush draw, nut flush draw + a pair, bare nut
flush draw. He could even jam back some of these range. We lose so much
value by calling. it is a crime not to raise. If his turn continue range is
only a better flush, that is simple, you could just check raise turn all day
with air and exploit him.
I don't like check call because not only we lose so much value, but also if
total air or a paired hand, he might not be betting river at all if flush
card does not come. Because your hand look like an over pair or at least a
pair (i don't think you would check call here with a bare nut flush draw
here, would you?). He might not be sure that he could bluff you off so he
could just take the showdown or give up. I do not think we gain much at all
by calling.
so yeah, i would check raise turn and get it in.
draw
。
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: 如果turn被3-bet，你就准备get in了？如果被人家higher flush cooler了，150BB是
: 不是有点多啊。我觉得他如果中了set 或者2 pair，应该会在flop raise 我。所以他
: 那种board下在turn bet，10% made flush, 40% semi bluff with all kinds of draw
: , 50% weak hand bluffing (maybe has one pair but he think have no showdown
: value). 但是那90%情况下我raise，他可能就fold了，我也赢不了多少，而那10%却一
: 下子输150BB，是不是有点多？ 按概率说 150BB*0.1< 50BB*0.9,似乎也应该get in。
:
: bet
: played
: just
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 24 I think you worry too much about balancing and defensing your blind.
Sometimes we should just let it go even if we know button is stealing
especially if he does not like to fold to 3 bet. You are putting yourself in a very bad situation post flop when you 3 bet bluff out of position. you lose more long term than defending the blinds. If you really want to defend and he likes to call 3 bet a lot light, i would rather 3 bet wider for thin value than 3 bet bluff. adding K10s, A9s etc into your 3 bet range. 94s is really too much a junk to play back. Didn't you post a hand before with 94s out of position deep? It is the same thing, not profitable at all long term vs a good player. You can mixed in a few 3 bet bluff in position. They
usually don't mess around too much out of position post flop so your life would be a lot easier. For an ordinary player, they might not even notice the difference except that you 3 bet a lot.
,
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: 那你对button raise的 3-bet range是什么，我总感觉如果3-bet oop 就是Aq+, 88+,
: at most one gap SC, 这range还是太窄，赢不了大pot，容易被人家read。而且这么宅
: 的defending range ，我要是button，几乎是steal with any two cards.
:
: bet
: played
: just
: think
| W********m
发帖数: 7793 | 25 I also think an aggressive villian would raise a lot of flop with a flush draws on the flop in a 3 bet pot. That decreases his made flush a bit on the turn. But this largely depending on your read. | l*****g
发帖数: 1128 | 26 I would bet bigger on the flop. 150 to a PSB sounds good to me. On the turn
I would continue bet big (400-450), if villain called the turn and fired on
the river, then I would give up since there was nothing else he could call
you with except for a big heart.
2000)
like
,
,
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: 5/10 game.
: hero (1700) 3 bet 4 times and win them all without showdown, villain (~2000)
: is a decent LAG regular, 3 bet a couple of times, and call others' 3-bet
: almost 80% of times (but fold to c-bet about 60%), very aggressive and like
: to steal and make big bet bluff.
: preflop: all fold to button villain, who raise to 35. hero at BB with 4h9h,
: 3-bet to 80. The idea is that, players at the table give hero's 3 bet too
: much credit and most likely perceive hero's 3-bet range at high end (two
: high cards or high pocket pair). So if low cards like 4 or 9 hit the board,
: I may get value from button's floating. Also, I want to win the hand with
| s*******o
发帖数: 4896 | 27 I totally agree with you on this hand.
我认为如果拿边缘牌3bet撞到牌的话就打3条街到all in能获得最大value
turn
on
【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: I would bet bigger on the flop. 150 to a PSB sounds good to me. On the turn
: I would continue bet big (400-450), if villain called the turn and fired on
: the river, then I would give up since there was nothing else he could call
: you with except for a big heart.
:
: 2000)
: like
: ,
: ,
| l*****g
发帖数: 1128 | 28 Yeah, no need to slow play unless you had the nuts flush, otherwise just
continue to bet for value.
【在 s*******o 的大作中提到】
: I totally agree with you on this hand.
: 我认为如果拿边缘牌3bet撞到牌的话就打3条街到all in能获得最大value
:
: turn
: on
| H****r
发帖数: 2801 | 29 这个分析相当高！
其实感觉要能比较准确的把不同对手各种牌的可能性划分出来随之做出决定是理性分析
的方法，很多时候牌还是没办法100%确定的，根据分析做决定，接受结果，通过经验增
加判断的准确程度？
draw
。
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: 如果turn被3-bet，你就准备get in了？如果被人家higher flush cooler了，150BB是
: 不是有点多啊。我觉得他如果中了set 或者2 pair，应该会在flop raise 我。所以他
: 那种board下在turn bet，10% made flush, 40% semi bluff with all kinds of draw
: , 50% weak hand bluffing (maybe has one pair but he think have no showdown
: value). 但是那90%情况下我raise，他可能就fold了，我也赢不了多少，而那10%却一
: 下子输150BB，是不是有点多？ 按概率说 150BB*0.1< 50BB*0.9,似乎也应该get in。
:
: bet
: played
: just
| M********g
发帖数: 717 | 30 I thought so. But even you did not check raise, 90%*80% of the time you were
gonna take the pot. So the ev for calling is at least 50*.9*.8=36. But cr
ev would be -150*.1+50*.9=30, which is worse, assuming no river action for
calling.
draws.
【在 c****1 的大作中提到】
: some misunderstanding here, I assume he wont call my check raise with draws.
: So only two scenarios, 1:)he had big made flush and come on top, 2:) he
: fold to my check raise.
:
: least
| | | M********g
发帖数: 717 | 31 I really like this theory of value town of yours.
on
are
is
day
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: Yes if he 3 bets I would get it in. Of course that is if we assume he is a
: good aggressive reg. 150bb is not too deep. If he is a good player, his
: continuation range vs turn check raise should be a lot wider than a higher
: flush because your range of flush is very limited. when our hand is
: disguised we of course go straight for full value. So much value to have on
: the turn when your range look weak, the hand i see that he can continue are
: sets, 2 pair, over pair + a flush draw, nut flush draw + a pair, bare nut
: flush draw. He could even jam back some of these range. We lose so much
: value by calling. it is a crime not to raise. If his turn continue range is
: only a better flush, that is simple, you could just check raise turn all day
| M********g
发帖数: 717 | 32 But I think his balancing from time to time is a good idea. He 3bets 4 times
in a row and no callers. His image was too tight for action. But in order
to execute his original plan to widen his presumed 3bet range, i think maybe
it is better for cmis to call the river and show this hand.
in a very bad situation post flop when you 3 bet bluff out of position. you
lose more long term than defending the blinds. If you really want to defend
and he likes to call 3 bet a lot light, i would rather 3 bet wider for thin
value than 3 bet bluff. adding K10s, A9s etc into your 3 bet range. 94s is
really too much a junk to play back. Didn't you post a hand before with 94s
out of position deep? It is the same thing, : not profitable at all long
term vs a good player. You can mixed in a few 3 bet bluff in position. They
would be a lot easier. For an ordinary player, they might not even notice
the difference except that you 3 bet a lot.
【在 W********m 的大作中提到】
: I think you worry too much about balancing and defensing your blind.
: Sometimes we should just let it go even if we know button is stealing
: especially if he does not like to fold to 3 bet. You are putting yourself in a very bad situation post flop when you 3 bet bluff out of position. you lose more long term than defending the blinds. If you really want to defend and he likes to call 3 bet a lot light, i would rather 3 bet wider for thin value than 3 bet bluff. adding K10s, A9s etc into your 3 bet range. 94s is really too much a junk to play back. Didn't you post a hand before with 94s out of position deep? It is the same thing, not profitable at all long term vs a good player. You can mixed in a few 3 bet bluff in position. They
: usually don't mess around too much out of position post flop so your life would be a lot easier. For an ordinary player, they might not even notice the difference except that you 3 bet a lot.
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| H****r
发帖数: 2801 | 33 this does seem to work better in live games
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【在 l*****g 的大作中提到】
: I would bet bigger on the flop. 150 to a PSB sounds good to me. On the turn
: I would continue bet big (400-450), if villain called the turn and fired on
: the river, then I would give up since there was nothing else he could call
: you with except for a big heart.
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