T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 1 I came upon this article by Venerable Narada Mahathera:
http://www.buddhism.org/Sutras/BuddhaTeachings/page_28.html
Rebirth of the mental flux is also instantaneous and leaves no room whatever
for any intermediate state (antarabhava). Pure Buddhism does not support
the belief that a spirit of the deceased person takes lodgement in some
temporary state until it finds a suitable place for its "reincarnation."
Is this pure Buddhism?
According to Tibetan Buddhism, bardo takes 49 days:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo
According to people's experiences, they can feel the presence of deceased
ancestors or great teachers. Not only that, some people may call upon those
deceased ones to come into their bodies, such as in the story "send me
someone", Diana had a very successful marriage with Paul till Paul died of
lung cancer. When Paul was very ill, Paul told her that he didn't want her
to be lonely, so Diana spontaneously asked Paul to send her someone, and
Paul firmly agreed. After Paul died, Diana met Ted, and she was more and
more convinced that Ted was the one that Paul sent to her. Ted may do things
that Paul would do but Ted himself wouldn't do, as if Paul is in his body
from time to time. What are those things (such as Paul's spirit or soul)
called in Buddhism? | P******n
发帖数: 329 | 2 严格来说，没有宿世通的人无法回答你这个问题；但是如果依杂阿含里面的一些经文，
应该是此有故彼有，这里的“有”的意思和“不受后有”的“有”同意，所以应该是
instantaneous。就像一根着火的木棒，前面一节节烧掉，后面一节节继续燃烧，紧跟
着前一节的这后一节的燃烧，这个火的相续，就有点这个意思。
最后，这个问题真的那么重要吗？ | q****n
发帖数: 4574 | 3 客观事实就是，一个人死后，如果他是投人等，是有个阶段的（如49天内，或者更长）
，不是马上就投人的。这很好理解的。你要投人，也需要有个合适的机缘，无人生小孩
，你怎么投？这么多人要投，谁投人，谁不投？有的人投入畜牲。在投生之前，是处于
某种状态，可以叫灵性，这也是灵识的一种形态。
如果死后，要变成天人，这是可以马上就往生的。如果下地狱，好像也是很快的。没有
中阴身之阶段。
说人死后投人有个阶段（如49天，很重要，要赶快超度等），这是个客观事实，不是某
些人根据自己的想象而能否定的。
whatever
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I came upon this article by Venerable Narada Mahathera:
: http://www.buddhism.org/Sutras/BuddhaTeachings/page_28.html
: Rebirth of the mental flux is also instantaneous and leaves no room whatever
: for any intermediate state (antarabhava). Pure Buddhism does not support
: the belief that a spirit of the deceased person takes lodgement in some
: temporary state until it finds a suitable place for its "reincarnation."
: Is this pure Buddhism?
: According to Tibetan Buddhism, bardo takes 49 days:
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo
: According to people's experiences, they can feel the presence of deceased
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 4 多谢多谢!
en, I want to know what Buddhism says about it, and perhaps within what
context it is said to be so. It is important to me because I see
discrepancies in theories and experiences, and I want to know why.
That's true, but any thoughts from others would be helpful in some way. I am
wondering how you would explain the discrepancies I listed in the original
post. | T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 5 Thanks a lot!
I could understand the idea that there is a waiting period, but I don't know
why it should take 49 days, and why it's inconsistent with that theory of
instantaneous rebirth.
Also take people's experiences for example, some dead souls could live in
someone else' body much later than 49 days. Is that soul in the intermediate
state between lives or is it in another state that it can naturally stay in
that state for much longer? What is that soul or that state called in
Buddhism?
【在 q****n 的大作中提到】
: 客观事实就是，一个人死后，如果他是投人等，是有个阶段的（如49天内，或者更长）
: ，不是马上就投人的。这很好理解的。你要投人，也需要有个合适的机缘，无人生小孩
: ，你怎么投？这么多人要投，谁投人，谁不投？有的人投入畜牲。在投生之前，是处于
: 某种状态，可以叫灵性，这也是灵识的一种形态。
: 如果死后，要变成天人，这是可以马上就往生的。如果下地狱，好像也是很快的。没有
: 中阴身之阶段。
: 说人死后投人有个阶段（如49天，很重要，要赶快超度等），这是个客观事实，不是某
: 些人根据自己的想象而能否定的。
:
: whatever
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 6 I googled and found this:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1670
From Venerable Bodhi
There definitely seem to be suggestions in the suttas that there is a
temporal gap, an intermediate state, between lives, at least with respect to
rebirth in the human realm and in the case of non-returners. I have a long
note to the Connected Discourses of the Buddha (Samyutta Nikaya), chapter 46
, which explores this question in regard to the fivefold distinction among
non-returners. I will paste it in below.
The position that rebirth is instantaneous is strongly maintained by the
Theravada commentaries, but other schools of Indian Buddhism based on the
early collections (pre-Mahayana) supported an intermediate state. This
became a ground of contention among the Buddhist schools, sometimes
generating a lot of emotional friction, but the issue seems to be given very
little importance in the early discourses. Nevertheless, there are passages
that suggest (quite clearly, in my opinion) that there is an intermediate
state. For example, the famous Metta Sutta speaks of extending loving-
kindness to 'bhuutaa vaa sambhavesii vaa' -- "to beings who have come to be
and those about to come to be" -- and the suttas on nutriment say that the
four kinds of nutriment are "for the maintence of those that have come to be
and to assist those about to come to be." Those beings that are sambhavesii
, "about to come to be" (or "seeking existence") must be an allusion to
those in the intermediate state seeking a new rebirth.
See too SN 44:9, in which Vacchagotta asks the Buddha: "When a being has
laid down this body but has not yet been reborn in another body, what does
Master Gotama declare to be its fuel on that occasion?" The Buddha does not
reject V's question by asserting that such a situation is impossible. He
says, rather, that in such a situation "I declare that it is fueled by
craving.382 For on that occasion craving is its fuel."
Note 382 reads:
382. Tam aha˙ ta˚hÒp›d›na˙ vad›mi. The
Buddha’s statement seems to imply that a temporal gap can intervene between
the death moment and reconception. Since this contradicts Therav›da
orthodoxy, Spk contends that at the death moment itself the being is said to
be “not yet reborn” because the rebirth-consciousness has not yet arisen.
I have also found evidence for beings in this state from the reported
rebirth memories of people who (without meditative experience) can recollect
their previous life and death. Several cases I have read of this type
report that the being, after passing away, spends some time moving about in
a subtle body (identical in form with their previous body, hence with a
sense of the same personal identity) until they find themselves drawn
towards a particular couple, who then become their new parents. Some cases
like this are included in Francis Story's book, Rebirth as Doctrine and
Experience (published by the Buddhist Publcation Society, Kandy, Sri Lanka).
See too Peter Harvey's book, The Selfless Mind (Curzon) which I refer to
in the note below.
65 This fivefold typology of nonreturners recurs at 48:15, 24, 66; 51:26
; 54:5; and 55:25. Spk explains the antar›parinibb›yı (“
attainer of Nibb›na in the interval”) as one reborn in the Pure
Abodes who attains arahantship during the first half of the life span. This
type is subdivided into three, depending on whether arahantship is reached:
(i) on the very day of rebirth; (ii) after one or two hundred aeons have
elapsed; or (iii) after four hundred aeons have elapsed. The
upahaccaparinibb›yı (“attainer of Nibb›na upon landing”)
is explained as one who attains arahantship after passing the first half of
the life span. For Spk, the asaºkh›raparinibb›yı (“
attainer without exertion”) and the sasaºkh›raparinibb›y&#
305; (“attainer with exertion”) then become two modes in which the first
two types of nonreturners attain the goal. This explanation originates from
Pp 16–17 (commented on at Pp-a 198–201). However, not only does this
account of the first two types disregard the literal meaning of their names,
but it also overrides the sequential and mutually exclusive nature of the
five types as delineated elsewhere in the suttas (see below).
If we understand the term antar›parinibb›yı literally,
as it seems we should, it then means one who attains Nibb›na in the
interval between two lives, perhaps while existing in a subtle body in the
intermediate state. The upahaccaparinibb›yı then becomes one who
attains Nibb›na “upon landing” or “striking ground” in the new
existence, i.e., almost immediately after taking rebirth. The next two terms
designate two types who attain arahantship in the course of the next life,
distinguished by the amount of effort they must make to win the goal. The
last, the uddha˙sota akani˛˛hag›mı, is one who takes
rebirth in successive Pure Abodes, completes the full life span in each, and
finally attains arahantship in the Akani˛˛ha realm, the highest
Pure Abode.
This interpretation, adopted by several non-Therav›da schools of
early Buddhism, seems to be confirmed by the Purisagati Sutta (AN IV 70–74)
, in which the simile of the flaming chip suggests that the seven types (
including the three kinds of antar›parinibb›yı) are
mutually exclusive and have been graded according to the sharpness of their
faculties. Additional support comes from AN II 134,25–29, which explains
the antar›parinibb›yı as one who has abandoned the fetter
of rebirth (upapattisa˙yojana) without yet having abandoned the fetter of
existence (bhavasa˙yojana). Though the Therav›din proponents argue
against this interpretation of antar›parinibb›yı (e.g., at
Kv 366), the evidence from the suttas leans strongly in its favour. For a
detailed discussion, see Harvey, The Selfless Mind, pp. 98–108.
AN II 155–56 draws an alternative distinction between the sasaºkh&
#8250;raparinibb›yı and the asaºkh›raparinibb›y&
#305;: the former reaches arahantship through meditation on the “austere”
meditation subjects such as the foulness of the body, the perception of the
repulsiveness of food, discontent with the whole world, the perception of
impermanence in all formations, and mindfulness of death; the latter,
through the four jh›nas. | t****e
发帖数: 2737 | 7 Not only that, some people may call upon those deceased ones to come into
their bodies, such as in the story "send me someone",
经典邪灵附身。这种东西不要接近。
whatever
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I came upon this article by Venerable Narada Mahathera:
: http://www.buddhism.org/Sutras/BuddhaTeachings/page_28.html
: Rebirth of the mental flux is also instantaneous and leaves no room whatever
: for any intermediate state (antarabhava). Pure Buddhism does not support
: the belief that a spirit of the deceased person takes lodgement in some
: temporary state until it finds a suitable place for its "reincarnation."
: Is this pure Buddhism?
: According to Tibetan Buddhism, bardo takes 49 days:
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo
: According to people's experiences, they can feel the presence of deceased
| q****n
发帖数: 4574 | 8
know
一个人死后，灵识离开身体，一般情况下（没有太大的功德或者非常大的恶业），就是
鬼的状态（在地府）。从这人变成鬼，就是REBIRTH, 这就是立刻的（instantaneous
）。许多人从这鬼的状态，可以再去投胎为人，也可以变成天人等等（需要这人的子孙
在他死后的49天内做功德）。所以他死后的49内是非常关键的时候，子孙要多做功德。
这鬼（或者称为灵性），可以在地府呆很长时间，很多年的，有非常多不同的情况。还
有几千年前的鬼没有超度的。
intermediate
in
这所谓的临时状态，或者中间状态，就是鬼道（如人道，是六道中一道），也有人称49
天内的灵性为中阴身，这期间超度，子孙做功德效果非常好，否则已经投生了，再想把
他们超度上天，就没有办法了或者效果不好了。
把注意力放在最重要的东西上，上面这些东西，稍微了解下就可以了，以后也许自然会
知道的。
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I googled and found this:
: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1670
: From Venerable Bodhi
: There definitely seem to be suggestions in the suttas that there is a
: temporal gap, an intermediate state, between lives, at least with respect to
: rebirth in the human realm and in the case of non-returners. I have a long
: note to the Connected Discourses of the Buddha (Samyutta Nikaya), chapter 46
: , which explores this question in regard to the fivefold distinction among
: non-returners. I will paste it in below.
: The position that rebirth is instantaneous is strongly maintained by the
| b********6
发帖数: 556 | 9 嗯 是这样的.
一般来说是49天。但也有短一些或长一些的。
比如大善大恶之人，这个阶段就非常短。在死时，大善之人会立马升天或去往佛世界。
大恶之人会快速堕到地狱。
49
【在 q****n 的大作中提到】
:
: know
: 一个人死后，灵识离开身体，一般情况下（没有太大的功德或者非常大的恶业），就是
: 鬼的状态（在地府）。从这人变成鬼，就是REBIRTH, 这就是立刻的（instantaneous
: ）。许多人从这鬼的状态，可以再去投胎为人，也可以变成天人等等（需要这人的子孙
: 在他死后的49天内做功德）。所以他死后的49内是非常关键的时候，子孙要多做功德。
: 这鬼（或者称为灵性），可以在地府呆很长时间，很多年的，有非常多不同的情况。还
: 有几千年前的鬼没有超度的。
: intermediate
: in
|
|
