h*******s
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player (Hope is the best thing) 于 (Mon Nov 21 15:26:29 2011, 美东) 提到:
5/10 NL. Very loose game and lots of action. A few guys sat down with 10+
K.
I played a super nitty game with shortstack(starting with 1k) at the table
and tried to not getting involved with many pots.
Then this hand came out: I was at SB with 1.8k, there were two limpers,
including button with very big stack. I looked my hand and I got KK. So I
made 100$ to go out of SB, BB called and button called as well.
BB is a very loose/aggro cash game pro and sat with more than 10K
stack. He was very active at the session, open like 40 preflop and bluff a
lot postflop as well. But he played very well overrall and he is a quite
thinking player. He was up a lot at that session.
The flop came as 744, rainbow. Seemed a pretty good flop for my KK. I bet
out 300$ on the flop, with 1400$ behind, BB raised to 700$, everybody else
folded, action to me..
what to do?
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Hector (ouou) 于 (Mon Nov 21 15:46:43 2011, 美东) 提到:
大牛都打5-10级别啊，太敬仰了！！！
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dch1010 (Jim) 于 (Mon Nov 21 16:31:11 2011, 美东) 提到:
player大大是high roller，5－10是relaxing game吧，我的两分钱，这个跟你坐下来
之后的历史有关系，如果之前你从来没进过局的话，无脑推。
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hillgong (King GG) 于 (Mon Nov 21 16:31:54 2011, 美东) 提到:
tough spot, I would ship in. Villian could raise for info here a lot w/ 88+
and we are not that deep enough to just flat here.
10+
limpers,
I
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superbobo (123) 于 (Mon Nov 21 16:36:17 2011, 美东) 提到:
我在online的习惯是call然后等着别人ship。。
有时候你反推回去别人的bluff range可能会fold掉啊
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GannTrader (甘哥(nasd)) 于 (Mon Nov 21 16:39:17 2011, 美东) 提到:
Below is my two cents:
Being a thoughtful pro as you said, BB probably had the following in his
mind before he pushed his raise in.
1. He thought you were tight and most likely had AK,AQ with your PF raise -
ideal to make his post flop outplays
2. You thought his range was either super strong, or total air (which he is
capable of).
3. He thought you thought he could have anything playing his rush in such a
big winning day -- therefore good timing to represent a 4 with high fold
equity.
Based on information you gave about BB and your table image, there is a
decent chance (over 70%) that you had the best hand. It appeared to be an
attempt to rob you on a paired rag flop against your continuation bet. With
your stack size, shoving/calling flop then shoving turn does not make much
difference because calling the raise would commit your stack anyways. On
the risk side, AA/77/54 suited is in his range, too, but we can scratch AA
with actions PF, so the only true nightmare would be that he hit his dream
flop with 77 or 54, in which case, with his pro-like thinking, it probably
makes more sense to flat call the flop, or shove it all in to represent a
bluff with his LAG image against a TAG player like you.
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fryking (赤道企鹅) 于 (Mon Nov 21 16:40:09 2011, 美东) 提到:
u pushed, and he folded
-----------------------
mark this as my final answer, lol.
10+
limpers,
I
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dch1010 (Jim) 于 (Mon Nov 21 16:52:44 2011, 美东) 提到:
我的两分钱，
一方面，你的push赶走了bluffer。
另一方面，你的push留下了pocket pair，来抓你bluff。
但如果你只是call的话，bluffer可能stop，pocket pair可能fold或者check behind
给open ends一张免费turn，甚至river
都是depends，桌子的历史是个重要因素
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Windstormm (Windstormm) 于 (Mon Nov 21 17:22:36 2011, 美东) 提到:
看对手是十么thinking level. 其实有时候 call 反而把自己range弄窄le
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player (Hope is the best thing) 于 (Mon Nov 21 17:38:10 2011, 美东) 提到:
俺不是high roller, 最大Live 也就打过 10-20 NL , 也不是很多。
现在FTP已经给俺弄破产了。 这个是BF 以前打的。
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player (Hope is the best thing) 于 (Mon Nov 21 17:57:22 2011, 美东) 提到:
Thanks for all the input, guys. appreciate it!
In reality, I thought about that hand for 7-8 minutes after that 700$ flop
raise and folded on the flop. Somebody almost called time on me.
Before that hand, I have sit on that table for about 2 hours and had been
playing really tight. He is an observant player and he knew that. My
decision here really depends what he thought about my hand range and how to
proceed based on that.
In his perception, can I bet 300$ into 400$ pot on 744 flop against 3
other players in the pot with AQ,AK in a very loose game? I would not and
he would think the same way. He was absolutely not raising for info there
with hand like 88-QQ with my shallow stack. His range was very polarized
there, either had AA, 77, trip 4s, either total airball. So I think he
thought I had a big pair and the small raise was to induce a shove.
Also, although my stack(1800$) was pretty short on the table, but
there were 2 other callers with much bigger stack, which could give him the
implied odds to call with hands like 45s. I was thinking that long because
he had been playing really loose and bluffed a lot. Still very tough spot
like your guys said.
After I left the table, he was nice enough to tell me that he had trip
4s. I did believe him. I said "you know I had a big pocket pair". He said"
that is exactly right".
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player (Hope is the best thing) 于 (Mon Nov 21 18:17:53 2011, 美东) 提到:
a
Very good analysis!
I was thinking about similiar thing back then. I made the fold the
decision mainly coz I thought my image was so tight and my stack was so
short, I could shove there a lot. So it was less likely that he was bluffing
there.
BTW, AA is definately a possibity there. With another guy sitting with 10K
+ in the pot, flatting with AA is very profitable if he can get set vs set,
set vs 2 pairs situation.
He actually played AA similiar way later on that day and busted a tight
guy with about 3k stack with QQ or KK.
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fryking (赤道企鹅) 于 (Mon Nov 21 19:05:30 2011, 美东) 提到:
wow, sigh, wow, ft, wow, i'm a donk, hehe.
flop
been
to
3
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Windstormm (Windstormm) 于 (Mon Nov 21 19:22:33 2011, 美东) 提到:
其实我觉得这里flop bet 太大了。 应该bet 的大小能让7x 和任何 pocket pair 叫。
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player (Hope is the best thing) 于 (Mon Nov 21 21:16:49 2011, 美东) 提到:
No you are not. it is +EV to shove most of time with KK.
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fryking (赤道企鹅) 于 (Mon Nov 21 21:18:42 2011, 美东) 提到:
要不俺说不玩deep stack呢，呵呵(虽然这里也只是200BB的问题)。
决策越简单越好不是？
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player (Hope is the best thing) 于 (Mon Nov 21 21:24:03 2011, 美东) 提到:
agree. shorter stack definately will make life easilier. But you wanna have
a deep stack when there are huge fishes with deep stack at stable :)
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fryking (赤道企鹅) 于 (Mon Nov 21 21:26:03 2011, 美东) 提到:
sigh, level ah level.
some ppl feel happy because he made $xxx, some ppl feel sad because he could
make $xxx more, sigh.
have
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goes (goes) 于 (Mon Nov 21 22:28:08 2011, 美东) 提到:
I agree. If I was BB here I would just call with 4X. Flop bet is too big
compare to pot size/SB's stack size so BB has enough time to build the pot.
。
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player (Hope is the best thing) 于 (Mon Nov 21 22:36:44 2011, 美东) 提到:
I actually like my flop betsize there. The pot was 400$ and my bet is 75%
of the pot. I can find enough info with this bet.
Smaller bet would make ppl behind me float a lot in positioin and make
life really tough in later street. The button is a very good loose/aggro
player as well.
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Windstormm (Windstormm) 于 (Tue Nov 22 09:16:04 2011, 美东) 提到:
exactly my point. this is not a great play for him to raise here if he does
have a 4.
Why raising is not good? it polarizes his range. he either has 4x or pocket
7s or bluff. It puts the big pair on a defensive mode to bluff catch. Could
he have an over pair or 7x? yes then this is an even worse play since we
all know we should not be raising with that here. There is also no need to over leveling here to think of things like "will he think this is more like a bluff here if i raise."
Calling is good.
1) the stack is so shallow. he can easily put all stack in with just calling.
2) board is so dry, his opponents is left with 2 outs or less
3) Protect his calling range on the flop (这点是key). When he calls here,
his range is very wide. he could float with air, over pair 7X, any pocket
pair or 7s and 4x. Vs this range, it keeps big pair on the valuing mode.
Much easier to put everything in by river.
bottom line here, this guy is either bluffing or if he is not bluffing 那他
一定是打鱼打惯了， 习惯了在flop 上就用nuts和鱼的over pair 打到all in.
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goes (goes) 于 (Tue Nov 22 10:39:33 2011, 美东) 提到:
3 players in the pot plus 2 limper's money so the pot is just over 300
unless I miss something. So you were betting at least 85% of the pot.
If BB just called you $300 bet, what info would you get from that? Nothing.
As BB's range is still widely open and could have all kinds of hands as MM
mentioned. By betting that much and given the nit image you have, you are
saying to everyone "Guys, I have over pair, come on...".
Also why are you afraid of getting floated here? You have close to nuts hand
and shallow stack. I am happy to see people to float me in this particular
situation.
Betting small(around 55-60% of the pot) has following benefits:
1. Keep you range wide. you can certainly bet that amount by having AK.
2. induce them to call with worse hand.
3. induce them to float and bluff.
4. if they do have strong hand, give them the feeling that they need to re-
raise flop to get whole stack. At that time, we can always re-evaluate.
Just my 2 cents.
make
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player (Hope is the best thing) 于 (Tue Nov 22 10:58:05 2011, 美东) 提到:
my bad that I missed something in the orignal post. both limpers called
100$ raise preflop and there were straddle . So the pot is 430$ preflop.
Onec factor we may consider when making these decision that the stack
in the game was so deep and the game was very loose. The game had a few new
comers/fishes , not much balance needed. I agree that a lot of online
cash players think too much about balance in live game.
With my super tight image and they may already know that I had QQ+, I
actually wants to find out if my KK is good on the flop. I may even give up
on the turn if I get smooth called.
.
hand
particular
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Windstormm (Windstormm) 于 (Tue Nov 22 11:09:03 2011, 美东) 提到:
The stack is not so deep any more after preflop action. If you bet and give
up, u are playing kk like ak. With the stack size, and a relatively safe
board, I think the primary goal here is to stack someone with worse like 10s
js or any shit hand a live fish can come up with. The question is how.
my bad that I missed something in the orignal post. both limpers called 100$
raise prefl........
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player (Hope is the best thing) 于 (Tue Nov 22 11:14:32 2011, 美东) 提到:
Both BB and button sitting with deepstack are cash game pro. They are
both very aggro, but both are very thinking players. NO way they would
stack me off with TT-QQ with my super nitty image.
【 在 Windstormm (Windstormm) 的大作中提到: 】
give
10s
100$
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Windstormm (Windstormm) 于 (Tue Nov 22 11:24:52 2011, 美东) 提到:
Then check and open up their bluffing and calling range at later street or
bet smaller. Big bet then give up with kk on that board is just not the way
to do it. You are pretty much telling me that their calling range for your
bet size on the flop is only better hand than kk, then why are we betting
here so big again if there is no value? Turning KK into a bluff?
Both BB and button sitting with deepstack
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Windstormm (Windstormm) 于 (Tue Nov 22 11:28:31 2011, 美东) 提到:
You want them to float you with air and 7x because they have to bluff later
street and they are drawing dead. You don't want them to fold a worse hand
or only call with a better hand.
Then check and open up their bluffing and calling range at later street or
bet smaller.
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player (Hope is the best thing) 于 (Tue Nov 22 11:49:10 2011, 美东) 提到:
I think the play/thought process should be very opponent dependant. I want
to fish to call/float, I want to find out enough info from very thinking/
obervant players.
later
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goes (goes) 于 (Tue Nov 22 13:08:07 2011, 美东) 提到:
Looks like MM and I graduated from same poker school and had same teacher.
We must have same or similar leaks as well.
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Windstormm (Windstormm) 于 (Tue Nov 22 14:07:40 2011, 美东) 提到:
这里讲的都是 poker 里最基本的东西。当然我们看法都差不多。 yubobo 另一贴里的
第三点也是差不多东西。
我发现on-line game 里成长起来的赢家对于这些基本东西的理解都要比live 牌手好一
些。 其实bet or raise for information 是live players 最大的leak, 而on-line
player 一开始就知道这样做大部分时候都是不对的。这有一点也是因为没有真正理解range 这个概念.
有时候我听live players 说他们常常可以把一个人打的牌的range精确到1 combo. 我就想笑， 不是因为我不相信， 其实我相信。。 只是这个对手要打得多差才能让你range 到只有一手牌？ |
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