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l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 1 1a. Jesus was conceived of a virgin.
1b. Horus was conceived of a virgin.
2a. Jesus was the “only begotten son” of the god Yahweh.
2b. Horus was the “only begotten son” of the god Osiris.
3a. The mother of Jesus was Mary. Sometimes referred to as Maria or Miriam.
3b. The mother of Horus was Meri.
4a. The foster father of Jesus was Joseph.
4b. The foster father of Horus was Seph.
5a. Joseph was of royal descent, being from the House of David.
5b. Seph was of royal descent.
6a. Jesus was born in cave. (Some accounts say Jesus was born in a manger in
a barn or stable.)
6b. Horus was born in a cave.
7a. The coming birth of Jesus was announced to Mary by an angel.
7b. The coming birth of Horus was announced to his mother by an angel.
8a. The birth of Jesus was heralded by a star in the East (where the Sun
rises in the morning).
8b. The birth of Horus was heralded by the star Sirius (the morning star).
9a. Modern Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25. (This
coincides with a variety of pagan holidays, not just Horus. Most obvious, of
course, is the Winter Solstice.)
9b. Ancient Egyptians celebrated the birth of Horus on the Winter Solstice (
December 21/22).
10a. The birth of Jesus was announced by an angel.
10b. The birth of Horus was announced by an angel.
11a. Jesus was visited by shepherds at his birth.
11b. Horus was visited by shepherds at his birth.
12a. Jesus was visited by magi (astrologers or wise men) at his birth.
Tradition says there were three of them.
12b. Horus was visited by “three solar deities” art his birth.
13a. After the birth of Jesus, Herod tried to have him murdered.
13b. After the birth of Horus, Herut tried to have him murdered.
14a. To hide from Herod, an angel tells Joseph to “arise and take the young
child and his mother and flee into Egypt.”
14b. To hide from Herut, the god That tells Isis, “Come, thou goddess Isis,
hide thyself with thy child.”
15a. When Jesus (and other Jews) come of age, they have a special ritual
called a Bar Mitzvah.
15b. When Horus came of age, he had a special ritual where hsi eye was
restored.
16a. Jesus was 12 at his coming-of-age ritual.
16b. Horus was 12 at his coming-of-age ritual.
17a. Jesus has no official recorded history between age 12 and 30.
17b. Horus has no official recorded history between age 12 and 30.
18a. Jesus was baptized in the river Jordan.
18b. Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus.
19a. Jesus was baptized at age 30.
19b. Horus was baptized at age 30.
20a. Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist.
20b. Horus was baptized by Anup the Baptizer.
21a. John was later beheaded.
21b. Anup was later beheaded.
22a. Jesus was taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain to be
tempted by his arch-nemesis Satan.
22b. Horus was taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain to be
tempted by his arch-rival Set.
23a. Jesus successfully resists.
23b. Horus successfully resists.
24a. Jesus has 12 disciples, although their names are in dispute.
24b. Horus has 12 disciples.
25a. Jesus walked on water (Matthew 14:22, Mark 6:45, John 6:16), cast out
demons, healed the sick, and restored sight to the blind
25b. Horus walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, and restored
sight to the blind.
26a. Jesus commanded the sea to be still by saying, “Peace, be still.” 26b
. Horus “stilled the sea by his power.”
27a. Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave.
27b. Horus raised his dead father (Osiris) from the grave. (Note the
similarity in names when you say them out loud. Further, Osiris was also
known as Asar, which is El-Asar in Hebrew, which is El-Asarus in Latin.)
28a. Lazarus was raised, or at least lived, in Bethany (literally, “house
of Anu”).
28b. Osiris was raised in the town of Anu.
29a. Jesus delivered a Sermon on the Mount.
29b. Horus delivered a Sermon on the Mount.
30a. Jesus was crucified.
30b. Horus was crucified.
31a. Jesus was crucified next to two thieves.
31b. Horus was crucified next to two thieves.
32a. Jesus was buried in a tomb.
32b. Horus was buried in a tomb.
33a. Jesus was sent to Hell and came back “three days” later (although
Friday night to Sunday morning in our modern tradition is hardly three days).
33b. Horus was sent to Hell and resurrected in 3 days.
34a. Jesus had his resurrection announced by women. (The blog MarkAndMore
would like to point out that Mark 16:8 says, “And they went out quickly,
and fled from the sepulcher; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said
they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.” In this version, the
women never made the announcement.)
34b. Horus had his resurrection announced by women.
35a. Jesus is said to return for a 1000-year reign.
35b. Horus is said to return for a 1000-year reign.
36a. Jesus was known as the Christ (which means “anointed one”).
36b. Horus is known as KRST, the anointed one.
37a. Jesus has been called the good shepherd (John 10:11, 10:14), the lamb
of God, the bread of life, the son of man (many places), the Word, the
fisher, and the winnower.
37b. Horus has been called the good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of
life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, and the winnower.
38a. Jesus is associated with the zodiac sign of Pisces (the fish).
38b. Horus is associated with the zodiac sign of Pisces (the fish).
39a. Jesus is associated with the symbols of the fish, the beetle, the vine,
and the shepherd’s crook.
39b. Horus is associated with the symbols of the fish, the beetle, the vine,
and the shepherd’s crook.
40a. Jesus was born in Bethlehem (“the house of bread”).
40b. Horus was born in Anu (“the place of bread”).
41a. The infant Jesus was carried into Egypt to escape the wrath of Herod.
Concerning the infant Jesus, the New Testament states the following prophecy
41b. The infant Horus was carried out of Egypt to escape the wrath of Typhon.
42a. Jesus was transfigured on the mount.
42b. Horus was transfigured on the mount.
43. The catacombs of Rome have pictures of the infant Horus being held by
his mother, not unlike the modern-day images of “Madonna and Child.”
44. Noted English author C. W. King says that both Isis and Mary are called
“Immaculate”.
45. Jesus says: “Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in
him. If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and
will glorify him at once.”
45b. Horus says: “Osiris, I am your son, come to glorify your soul, and to
give you even more power.”
46a. Jesus is identified with the Tau (cross).
46b. Horus was identified with the Tau (cross). | m****a
发帖数: 9485 | 2 不是巧合，也不是抄袭，是同一个启示，通过不同人群传下来了。
为什么不想想这个option呢？为什么说一定是抄袭的呢？人名字不同，也许是语言关系
，也许是流传渠道改变了。。。神可以启示给不同民族国家，人群的同样的信息，这是
很可能的啊。。 | l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 3 我说，你知不知道荷鲁斯是什么年代的阿小麦，
在你们传说中的耶稣出生3000多年前人家就是埃及的主神之一拉
【在 m****a 的大作中提到】
: 不是巧合，也不是抄袭，是同一个启示，通过不同人群传下来了。
: 为什么不想想这个option呢？为什么说一定是抄袭的呢？人名字不同，也许是语言关系
: ，也许是流传渠道改变了。。。神可以启示给不同民族国家，人群的同样的信息，这是
: 很可能的啊。。
| m****a
发帖数: 9485 | 4
知道，你们以前发过。
人类是从亚当起的，后来有了洪水，基本上又从诺亚一家开始的。诺亚是一位先知，他
一下船就带领全家人建立祭坛，他能 不跟他的后代讲解有关耶稣的预言吗？后来巴别
塔分开了人类，个说自己的语言，这些事情就流传在不同民族了，为什么说一定是大家
抄袭的呢？
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 我说，你知不知道荷鲁斯是什么年代的阿小麦，
: 在你们传说中的耶稣出生3000多年前人家就是埃及的主神之一拉
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 5 你有没有搞错。。。？你们传说中的诺亚方舟发生的时候埃及早就在崇拜荷鲁斯了吧
【在 m****a 的大作中提到】
:
: 知道，你们以前发过。
: 人类是从亚当起的，后来有了洪水，基本上又从诺亚一家开始的。诺亚是一位先知，他
: 一下船就带领全家人建立祭坛，他能 不跟他的后代讲解有关耶稣的预言吗？后来巴别
: 塔分开了人类，个说自己的语言，这些事情就流传在不同民族了，为什么说一定是大家
: 抄袭的呢？
| m****a
发帖数: 9485 | 6
诺亚之前还有其他先知啊
亚当就是第一位先知，他也告诉他的子女耶稣的事情了
这些记载都没什么错
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 你有没有搞错。。。？你们传说中的诺亚方舟发生的时候埃及早就在崇拜荷鲁斯了吧
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 7 你不觉得你在胡说八道么小麦？ “亚当就是第一位先知，他也告诉他的子女耶稣的事
情了”， 你在旧约上能不能找出耶稣的名字来？
【在 m****a 的大作中提到】
:
: 诺亚之前还有其他先知啊
: 亚当就是第一位先知，他也告诉他的子女耶稣的事情了
: 这些记载都没什么错
| m****a
发帖数: 9485 | 8
摩西书里面有记载亚当是如何得到神的启示的，你可以参考一下：
http://scriptures.lds.org/zh/moses/1
旧约是没有耶稣的名字，但弥赛亚是很多的--就是基督--受膏者
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 你不觉得你在胡说八道么小麦？ “亚当就是第一位先知，他也告诉他的子女耶稣的事
: 情了”， 你在旧约上能不能找出耶稣的名字来？
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 9 另外按你这个说法，埃及语言可是没间断的传播到2000年前，是不是人类原先讲的都是
埃及话？
【在 m****a 的大作中提到】
:
: 摩西书里面有记载亚当是如何得到神的启示的，你可以参考一下：
: http://scriptures.lds.org/zh/moses/1
: 旧约是没有耶稣的名字，但弥赛亚是很多的--就是基督--受膏者
| m****a
发帖数: 9485 | 10
这个不是很清楚。可以查查圣经编年史，看看古埃及的人可能是什么人的后代，这个很
多人都有研究了
先下了，晚安
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 另外按你这个说法，埃及语言可是没间断的传播到2000年前，是不是人类原先讲的都是
: 埃及话？
| | | l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 11 旧约弥赛亚就是耶稣的记载有么，弥赛亚无非是个国王罢了，是人不是神
【在 m****a 的大作中提到】
:
: 这个不是很清楚。可以查查圣经编年史，看看古埃及的人可能是什么人的后代，这个很
: 多人都有研究了
: 先下了，晚安
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 12 可能是韩国人后代，太搞笑了
【在 m****a 的大作中提到】
:
: 这个不是很清楚。可以查查圣经编年史，看看古埃及的人可能是什么人的后代，这个很
: 多人都有研究了
: 先下了，晚安
| c****y
发帖数: 829 | 13 Checked Wiki and couldn't find any your forward below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus
Miriam.
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 1a. Jesus was conceived of a virgin.
: 1b. Horus was conceived of a virgin.
: 2a. Jesus was the “only begotten son” of the god Yahweh.
: 2b. Horus was the “only begotten son” of the god Osiris.
: 3a. The mother of Jesus was Mary. Sometimes referred to as Maria or Miriam.
: 3b. The mother of Horus was Meri.
: 4a. The foster father of Jesus was Joseph.
: 4b. The foster father of Horus was Seph.
: 5a. Joseph was of royal descent, being from the House of David.
: 5b. Seph was of royal descent.
| j*******7
发帖数: 6300 | | E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 15 應該要設在比基督教傳教士更高一點，哪位違反了請舉出來
我們大家一起聲討。
【在 j*******7 的大作中提到】
: 反基这个职业究竟有没有道德底线？
| G******e
发帖数: 9567 | 16 什么时候wiki成了唯一的source?
【在 c****y 的大作中提到】
: Checked Wiki and couldn't find any your forward below.
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus
:
: Miriam.
| G******e
发帖数: 9567 | 17 不过，有原始出处吗？这方面可不能跟基督徒学。
【在 G******e 的大作中提到】
: 什么时候wiki成了唯一的source?
| d**b
发帖数: 55 | 18 Reference please.
小说不算哦。
Miriam.
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 1a. Jesus was conceived of a virgin.
: 1b. Horus was conceived of a virgin.
: 2a. Jesus was the “only begotten son” of the god Yahweh.
: 2b. Horus was the “only begotten son” of the god Osiris.
: 3a. The mother of Jesus was Mary. Sometimes referred to as Maria or Miriam.
: 3b. The mother of Horus was Meri.
: 4a. The foster father of Jesus was Joseph.
: 4b. The foster father of Horus was Seph.
: 5a. Joseph was of royal descent, being from the House of David.
: 5b. Seph was of royal descent.
| p**********r
发帖数: 3581 | 19 老毛病又犯了？ 抄袭不写出处！
Aren’t there some striking parallels between the Jesus and Horus stories?
Hardly. For those unfamiliar with the Horus story, Horus is a character in
Egyptian mythology, the son of the gods Isis and Osiris. There actually
appear to be multiple deities named 'Horus', but the one who is the son of
Isis and Osiris is the one the critics claim influenced the Jesus story.
For a quick and unbiased debunking of this story, go to any search engine
and find a site on Egyptian mythology and read the Horus story for yourself
(I've provided some links at the bottom of the page), or check the mythology
section at your local library (go ahead, I dare you!). Acharya S's book "
The Christ Conspiracy" is the apparent source of this list, but the author
provides evidentiary footnotes for only nine of the claims, and those
footnotes frequently disagree with her own claims!
Detail see http://kingdavid8.com/Copycat/JesusHorus.html
Miriam.
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 1a. Jesus was conceived of a virgin.
: 1b. Horus was conceived of a virgin.
: 2a. Jesus was the “only begotten son” of the god Yahweh.
: 2b. Horus was the “only begotten son” of the god Osiris.
: 3a. The mother of Jesus was Mary. Sometimes referred to as Maria or Miriam.
: 3b. The mother of Horus was Meri.
: 4a. The foster father of Jesus was Joseph.
: 4b. The foster father of Horus was Seph.
: 5a. Joseph was of royal descent, being from the House of David.
: 5b. Seph was of royal descent.
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | | | | l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 21 那代表啥？
【在 c****y 的大作中提到】
: Checked Wiki and couldn't find any your forward below.
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus
:
: Miriam.
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 22 lol, 这位弟兄最精彩的不是这个， 是那几个信仰问题对答
yourself
mythology
【在 p**********r 的大作中提到】
: 老毛病又犯了？ 抄袭不写出处！
: Aren’t there some striking parallels between the Jesus and Horus stories?
: Hardly. For those unfamiliar with the Horus story, Horus is a character in
: Egyptian mythology, the son of the gods Isis and Osiris. There actually
: appear to be multiple deities named 'Horus', but the one who is the son of
: Isis and Osiris is the one the critics claim influenced the Jesus story.
: For a quick and unbiased debunking of this story, go to any search engine
: and find a site on Egyptian mythology and read the Horus story for yourself
: (I've provided some links at the bottom of the page), or check the mythology
: section at your local library (go ahead, I dare you!). Acharya S's book "
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 23 譬如说？
【在 j*******7 的大作中提到】
: 反基这个职业究竟有没有道德底线？
| d**b
发帖数: 55 | 24 从lz链接出处贴一段原文
-----------------------------------------------------
Excerpt. © Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved.
In "The Christ Myth," John Remsburg elucidates:
"The Four Gospels were unknown to the early Christian Fathers. Justin Martyr
, the most eminent of the early Fathers, wrote about the middle of the
second century. His writings in proof of the divinity of Christ demanded the
use of these Gospels, had they existed in his time. He makes more than 300
quotations from the books of the Old Testament, and nearly one hundred from
the Apocryphal books of the New Testament; but none from the four Gospels.
Rev. Giles says: 'The very names of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke and
John, are never mentioned by him (Justin) - do not occur once in all his
writings.'"
-------------------------------------------------------------
而如果去wikipedia一下，就会发现Justin Martyr在其著作中有引用前三本福音书（统
称为Memoirs of the Apostles)，而他的学生Tatian的著作有引用约翰福音。（http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Martyr）
由此可见，该书的作者对于所选用的材料并不严谨。材料的真实性不可靠，结论又怎么
有说服力呢？
LZ给的链接里面还有更多的原文节选，大家可以去考究一下。
再贴一个关于此书的批评，
（http://www.answeringinfidels.com/answering-skeptics/answering-acharya-s/a-refutation-of-archary-ss-book-the-christ-conspiracy-pt-1.html）
我承认只看了黑体和conclusion
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Conspiracy-Greatest-Story-Ever/dp/
: 这个
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 25 .......
He makes more than 300 quotations from the books of the Old Testament, and
nearly one hundred from the Apocryphal books of the New Testament; but none
from the four Gospels.
Rev. Giles says: 'The very names of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke and
John, are never mentioned by him (Justin) - do not occur once in all his
writings.'"
vs.
As Justin saw it, the word of the apostles was the teaching of the Divine
Logos, and reproduces the sayings of Christ authentically. In general,
Justin uses the material from the Synoptic Gospels - Matthew, Mark, and Luke
- but his use of John is somewhat debatable. Nowhere in his works, the name
of any canonical gospel is mentioned specifically, other than this general
designation of the "Memoirs of the Apostles", which is used quite often. It
is believed that Justin used some sort of a Gospel Harmony that included the
material from the 3 Synoptic gospels. As Helmut Koester says,
"On the basis of the gospel quotations of the First Apology and the Dialogue
with Trypho, one can conclude with great certainty that Justin also had
composed a harmony of the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke (he did not
know the Gospel of John), which is lost but was used by his student Tatian
for the composition of his famous and influential four-gospel harmony known
as the Diatessaron." [17]
It is also possible that, rather than composing this Harmony himself, he may
have used a text already in existence.
“而如果去wikipedia一下，就会发现Justin Martyr在First中有引用前三本福音书（统
称为Memoirs of the Apostles)，而他的学生Tatian的著作有引用约翰福音。”
引用的原文是啥啊？
Martyr
the
300
from
and
【在 d**b 的大作中提到】
: 从lz链接出处贴一段原文
: -----------------------------------------------------
: Excerpt. © Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved.
: In "The Christ Myth," John Remsburg elucidates:
: "The Four Gospels were unknown to the early Christian Fathers. Justin Martyr
: , the most eminent of the early Fathers, wrote about the middle of the
: second century. His writings in proof of the divinity of Christ demanded the
: use of these Gospels, had they existed in his time. He makes more than 300
: quotations from the books of the Old Testament, and nearly one hundred from
: the Apocryphal books of the New Testament; but none from the four Gospels.
| d**b
发帖数: 55 | 26 我的语文比较烂。
如果你去看wiki，Justin Martyr在他的The First Apology 写到
"...the power of God, coming down upon the virgin, overshadowed her and
made her while yet a virgin to conceive (cf. Lk 1:35), and the angel of God
proclaimed to her and said, 'Behold, you will conceive in the womb from the
Holy Spirit and bear a son (Mt 1:20/Lk 1:31) and he will be called Son of
the Most High (Lk 1:32). And you shall call his name Jesus, because he will
save his people from their sins (Mt 1:21),' as those who have made memoirs
of all things about our savior Jesus Christ taught... (1 Apol. 33:4-5)[38]
我说明白了吗?
none
and
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: .......
: He makes more than 300 quotations from the books of the Old Testament, and
: nearly one hundred from the Apocryphal books of the New Testament; but none
: from the four Gospels.
: Rev. Giles says: 'The very names of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke and
: John, are never mentioned by him (Justin) - do not occur once in all his
: writings.'"
: vs.
: As Justin saw it, the word of the apostles was the teaching of the Divine
: Logos, and reproduces the sayings of Christ authentically. In general,
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 27 彻底无语，你的意思不是你引用那这几句话就是他copy&paste下面这几段的证据？同学？
这几句话怎么证明是从福音书上抄下来的？
起码在他所说的“使徒回忆录”应该不会不提到这几位“使徒”的名字八？
The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of
the
Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be
called[a]
the Son of God.
Lk 1:35
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD
appeared
unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to
take
unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the
Holy
Ghost.
Mt 1:20
You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him
the
name Jesus.
Lk 1:31
He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the
Lord
God will give Him the throne of His father David;
Lk 1:32
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[a]
because he will save his people from their sins.”
Mt 1:21
her
and
of
God
from
the
of
will
memoirs
[38]
【在 d**b 的大作中提到】
: 我的语文比较烂。
: 如果你去看wiki，Justin Martyr在他的The First Apology 写到
: "...the power of God, coming down upon the virgin, overshadowed her and
: made her while yet a virgin to conceive (cf. Lk 1:35), and the angel of God
: proclaimed to her and said, 'Behold, you will conceive in the womb from the
: Holy Spirit and bear a son (Mt 1:20/Lk 1:31) and he will be called Son of
: the Most High (Lk 1:32). And you shall call his name Jesus, because he will
: save his people from their sins (Mt 1:21),' as those who have made memoirs
: of all things about our savior Jesus Christ taught... (1 Apol. 33:4-5)[38]
: 我说明白了吗?
| d**b
发帖数: 55 | 28 如果你去看Dialogue with Trypho的81章，他也用了路加福音里耶酥关于天国不娶不嫁
的论述。所以说，例证不止一处，我只是没有一一列出而已。
我不知道是不是我的英文阅读能力也有些障碍，我没有看到LZ你说“他的“使徒回忆录
”"在那里，我以为作者仅存的只有三部作品
the First Apology
the Second Apology
Dialogue with Trypho
至于Memoirs of the apostles应该是Justin在refer to Matthew，Luke，Mark这三部
福音书吧。另外，Justin提到了使徒约翰的名字和启示录，尽管他没有引用启示录。
学？
the
a]
appeared
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 彻底无语，你的意思不是你引用那这几句话就是他copy&paste下面这几段的证据？同学？
: 这几句话怎么证明是从福音书上抄下来的？
: 起码在他所说的“使徒回忆录”应该不会不提到这几位“使徒”的名字八？
: The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of
: the
: Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be
: called[a]
: the Son of God.
: Lk 1:35
: But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 29 lol, 同学，你是怎么在我修改了之后引用的？ 这位虔诚的作者留下来的还有一部de
resurrectione的残片，我的意思是，在他所谓的“使徒回忆录”里有没有提到过这你
引用的那几位“使徒”的名字？“使徒回忆录”有没有指过一次马可福音，路加福音之
类的话？
【在 d**b 的大作中提到】
: 如果你去看Dialogue with Trypho的81章，他也用了路加福音里耶酥关于天国不娶不嫁
: 的论述。所以说，例证不止一处，我只是没有一一列出而已。
: 我不知道是不是我的英文阅读能力也有些障碍，我没有看到LZ你说“他的“使徒回忆录
: ”"在那里，我以为作者仅存的只有三部作品
: the First Apology
: the Second Apology
: Dialogue with Trypho
: 至于Memoirs of the apostles应该是Justin在refer to Matthew，Luke，Mark这三部
: 福音书吧。另外，Justin提到了使徒约翰的名字和启示录，尽管他没有引用启示录。
:
| d**b
发帖数: 55 | 30 Justin Martyr 也有引用约珥书，他也没提到约珥的名字啊。
在New Testment里面，即使是耶稣引用旧约，也常说"经上说",一般不会直接提到作者
的名字。
这是其一。
其二，
当时Justin在书里是这么描述的
"For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called
Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus
took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, ‘This do in remembrance of
Me, this is My body;’ and that, after the same manner, having taken the
cup and given thanks, He said, ‘This is My blood;’ and gave it to them
alone."
由此可以看来，Justin是有读到福音书，并引用的。
而LZ你说的书是说
""The Four Gospels were unknown to the early Christian Fathers."
"He (指Justin）... nearly one hundred from the Apocryphal books of the New
Testament; but none from the four Gospels"
所以说，lz你说的书引用的内容不严谨，结论当然不可靠。
（另外对你可能不成立，基督徒都认为圣经是神的默示，也就是，圣经是神的话）
【在 d**b 的大作中提到】
: 如果你去看Dialogue with Trypho的81章，他也用了路加福音里耶酥关于天国不娶不嫁
: 的论述。所以说，例证不止一处，我只是没有一一列出而已。
: 我不知道是不是我的英文阅读能力也有些障碍，我没有看到LZ你说“他的“使徒回忆录
: ”"在那里，我以为作者仅存的只有三部作品
: the First Apology
: the Second Apology
: Dialogue with Trypho
: 至于Memoirs of the apostles应该是Justin在refer to Matthew，Luke，Mark这三部
: 福音书吧。另外，Justin提到了使徒约翰的名字和启示录，尽管他没有引用启示录。
:
| | | E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 31 你的意思是一本書或一個人講錯了一件事，其他講的東西就都錯了？
Jesus
of
【在 d**b 的大作中提到】
: Justin Martyr 也有引用约珥书，他也没提到约珥的名字啊。
: 在New Testment里面，即使是耶稣引用旧约，也常说"经上说",一般不会直接提到作者
: 的名字。
: 这是其一。
: 其二，
: 当时Justin在书里是这么描述的
: "For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called
: Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus
: took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, ‘This do in remembrance of
: Me, this is My body;’ and that, after the same manner, having taken the
| E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 32 我沒認真看，不過提醒一下，基督教早期有非常多福音書，
不是只有那四本，你參考一下。
Jesus
of
【在 d**b 的大作中提到】
: Justin Martyr 也有引用约珥书，他也没提到约珥的名字啊。
: 在New Testment里面，即使是耶稣引用旧约，也常说"经上说",一般不会直接提到作者
: 的名字。
: 这是其一。
: 其二，
: 当时Justin在书里是这么描述的
: "For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called
: Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus
: took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, ‘This do in remembrance of
: Me, this is My body;’ and that, after the same manner, having taken the
| d**b
发帖数: 55 | 33 因为不是研究基督教历史的，也不是研究史学的，
所以我仅就我所看到原文的片段，通过网络搜寻回来的资料，认定我看到的片段不严谨。
由于没有时间和精力去细究一本论据不严谨的书，贴一个别人的成品，作为参考
http://www.answeringinfidels.com/answering-skeptics/answering-a
（http://www.answeringinfidels.com/answering-skeptics/answering-acharya-s/a-refutation-of-archary-ss-book-the-christ-conspiracy-pt-1.html）
其实LZ贴的书所讨论的主题并不罕见，一本论据更可靠的书，可能更值得lz花时间精力
去读。
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 你的意思是一本書或一個人講錯了一件事，其他講的東西就都錯了？
:
: Jesus
: of
| d**b
发帖数: 55 | 34 对。我也非常appreciate早期教会分辨哪些是可靠的。
【在 E*****m 的大作中提到】
: 我沒認真看，不過提醒一下，基督教早期有非常多福音書，
: 不是只有那四本，你參考一下。
:
: Jesus
: of
| E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 35
這話怎說？
【在 d**b 的大作中提到】
: 对。我也非常appreciate早期教会分辨哪些是可靠的。
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 36 其一，他“引用”的就是楼上你那样的抄文么？那我是不是也可以说，四福音书是后人
参考了他的大作后写出来的copy cat？至于耶稣么，在他的年代，你们除了希伯来旧约
还有几部经书？完全看不出来这有什么可比性
其二，那个年代所谓的福音书非常多，你怎么能够确定，这位作者引用的是马可路加那
几位的？说到使徒回忆录 作者有没有提到哪怕一次这几位的名字？据说约翰死于100年
左右，作者出生于103年，作为传说中年代最接近，成书最晚的约翰福音，作者也只字
不提， 只把启示录安在他的头上（当然也可能因为约翰福音是匿名的，作者是谁到现
在还没有公论），如果你真要说，因为你信四福音书是神给的，启示的，圣灵附体的等
等等等， 耶稣死后就有，所以不可能在当时不存在，麻烦拿出真实可信的证据大家验
证下
至于严谨和可信度么，同学，同样我可以说， 你引用的Justin Martyr在提到旧约时作
品中有不少错误，譬如把摩西的岳父说成是叔叔，那他的作品“内容不严谨，结论当然
不可靠”也同样成立， 你同不同意？主贴作者因为引用了John Remsburg书里的一段话
， 所以你得出关于荷鲁斯和耶稣的相同处的结论不可靠，这个理由牵强的可笑，建议
你引用埃及神话来一条一条反驳，另外严重批判一下Rev. Giles， 读书不认真
Jesus
of
【在 d**b 的大作中提到】
: Justin Martyr 也有引用约珥书，他也没提到约珥的名字啊。
: 在New Testment里面，即使是耶稣引用旧约，也常说"经上说",一般不会直接提到作者
: 的名字。
: 这是其一。
: 其二，
: 当时Justin在书里是这么描述的
: "For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called
: Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus
: took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, ‘This do in remembrance of
: Me, this is My body;’ and that, after the same manner, having taken the
| t******g
发帖数: 148 | 37 相似再多没有用，一点不同就带来根本的不同。
Miriam.
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 1a. Jesus was conceived of a virgin.
: 1b. Horus was conceived of a virgin.
: 2a. Jesus was the “only begotten son” of the god Yahweh.
: 2b. Horus was the “only begotten son” of the god Osiris.
: 3a. The mother of Jesus was Mary. Sometimes referred to as Maria or Miriam.
: 3b. The mother of Horus was Meri.
: 4a. The foster father of Jesus was Joseph.
: 4b. The foster father of Horus was Seph.
: 5a. Joseph was of royal descent, being from the House of David.
: 5b. Seph was of royal descent.
| t******g
发帖数: 148 | 38 赞研究精神。
【在 c****y 的大作中提到】
: Checked Wiki and couldn't find any your forward below.
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus
:
: Miriam.
| t******g
发帖数: 148 | 39 强。谢谢你。
yourself
mythology
【在 p**********r 的大作中提到】
: 老毛病又犯了？ 抄袭不写出处！
: Aren’t there some striking parallels between the Jesus and Horus stories?
: Hardly. For those unfamiliar with the Horus story, Horus is a character in
: Egyptian mythology, the son of the gods Isis and Osiris. There actually
: appear to be multiple deities named 'Horus', but the one who is the son of
: Isis and Osiris is the one the critics claim influenced the Jesus story.
: For a quick and unbiased debunking of this story, go to any search engine
: and find a site on Egyptian mythology and read the Horus story for yourself
: (I've provided some links at the bottom of the page), or check the mythology
: section at your local library (go ahead, I dare you!). Acharya S's book "
| E*****m
发帖数: 25615 | 40 上次我說一個學生抄襲，他就是這麼回答的。
【在 t******g 的大作中提到】
: 相似再多没有用，一点不同就带来根本的不同。
:
: Miriam.
| | | l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 41 不愧是能够明了三位一体这么扑朔迷离的观点的基督徒，
【在 t******g 的大作中提到】
: 相似再多没有用，一点不同就带来根本的不同。
:
: Miriam.
| d**b
发帖数: 55 | 42 其一，他“引用”的就是楼上你那样的抄文么？那我是不是也可以说，四福音书是后人
参考了他的大作后写出来的copy cat？至于耶稣么，在他的年代，你们除了希伯来旧约
还有几部经书？完全看不出来这有什么可比性
-------------------------------------------
是的。我认为那就是应用。因为如果现在的文章里面有一段这么长的文字并且没有引号
，会被定义为抄袭。
如果你认为四福音书是从这边书copy的，那我也无话可说啦。
旧约是只有一本，但作者超过四个吧。所以我认为是可比的。
其二，那个年代所谓的福音书非常多，你怎么能够确定，这位作者引用的是马可路加那
几位的？说到使徒回忆录 作者有没有提到哪怕一次这几位的名字？据说约翰死于100年
左右，作者出生于103年，作为传说中年代最接近，成书最晚的约翰福音，作者也只字
不提， 只把启示录安在他的头上（当然也可能因为约翰福音是匿名的，作者是谁到现
在还没有公论），如果你真要说，因为你信四福音书是神给的，启示的，圣灵附体的等
等等等， 耶稣死后就有，所以不可能在当时不存在，麻烦拿出真实可信的证据大家验
证下
------------------------------------------------------------
名字这个我上一个贴我已经说明了我的看法。
至于我说关于圣经是神的默示，我是想表达圣经的作者对于我来讲并不是最关键的。关
键的是上面记了什么。
至于严谨和可信度么，同学，同样我可以说， 你引用的Justin Martyr在提到旧约时作
品中有不少错误，譬如把摩西的岳父说成是叔叔，那他的作品“内容不严谨，结论当然
不可靠”也同样成立， 你同不同意？主贴作者因为引用了John Remsburg书里的一段话
， 所以你得出关于荷鲁斯和耶稣的相同处的结论不可靠，这个理由牵强的可笑，建议
你引用埃及神话来一条一条反驳，另外严重批判一下Rev. Giles， 读书不认真
-------------------------------------------
岳父和叔叔那段我不清楚，但我想，应该不影响Justin书中的结论吧
但是我说不严谨的部分是直接与作者的结论相关的。另外，不严谨的那段是amazon上原
文摘录的第二段。这是不是可能反映了作者犯错的频率的问题呢？正如你说的，原文摘
录的Rev. Giles那段也是有问题的。
其实你的部分问题在我没信主之前有问过。但是当我被光照之后(或者你会认为这些体
验别的宗教也存在），信仰和理性不是一个范畴的东西，这些问题就不会困扰我了。
Heb 11:1 信就是所望之事的实底，是未见之事的确据。
祝喜乐平安
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 其一，他“引用”的就是楼上你那样的抄文么？那我是不是也可以说，四福音书是后人
: 参考了他的大作后写出来的copy cat？至于耶稣么，在他的年代，你们除了希伯来旧约
: 还有几部经书？完全看不出来这有什么可比性
: 其二，那个年代所谓的福音书非常多，你怎么能够确定，这位作者引用的是马可路加那
: 几位的？说到使徒回忆录 作者有没有提到哪怕一次这几位的名字？据说约翰死于100年
: 左右，作者出生于103年，作为传说中年代最接近，成书最晚的约翰福音，作者也只字
: 不提， 只把启示录安在他的头上（当然也可能因为约翰福音是匿名的，作者是谁到现
: 在还没有公论），如果你真要说，因为你信四福音书是神给的，启示的，圣灵附体的等
: 等等等， 耶稣死后就有，所以不可能在当时不存在，麻烦拿出真实可信的证据大家验
: 证下
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 43 是的。我认为那就是应用。因为如果现在的文章里面有一段这么长的文字并且没有引号
，会被定义为抄袭。
如果你认为四福音书是从这边书copy的，那我也无话可说啦。
旧约是只有一本，但作者超过四个吧。所以我认为是可比的。
-〉〉〉你是指拿出来的那些？你和原文比较过了没？旧约是本有500年历史的成书，在
当时说到经书，谁都知道指的什么，和无数分散的人写的回忆录怎么比？ 当时可没有
新约哈
耶稣回答说、你们错了．因为不明白圣经、也不晓得神的大能。
论到死人复活、神在经上向你们所说的、你们没有念过么。
若是这样、经上所说、事情必须如此的话、怎么应验呢。
我看不出以上的话引用作者名字有任何必要性
------------------------------------------------------------
名字这个我上一个贴我已经说明了我的看法。
至于我说关于圣经是神的默示，我是想表达圣经的作者对于我来讲并不是最关键的。关
键的是上面记了什么。
-〉〉〉归纳一个字，信就得啦， 是真是假无所谓？
-------------------------------------------
岳父和叔叔那段我不清楚，但我想，应该不影响Justin书中的结论吧
但是我说不严谨的部分是直接与作者的结论相关的。另外，不严谨的那段是amazon上原
文摘录的第二段。这是不是可能反映了作者犯错的频率的问题呢？正如你说的，原文摘
录的Rev. Giles那段也是有问题的。
——〉〉〉不严谨的部分是直接与作者的结论相关的？原文摘录的Rev. Giles那段也是
有问题的？
问一下这本书你看过没有？
Excerpt. © Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved.
Regarding the dating of the canonical gospels, lawyer Joseph Wheless states:
"The gospels are all priestly forgeries over a century after their pretended
dates.... As said by the great critic, Salomon Reinach, 'With the exception
of Papias, who speaks of a narrative by Mark, and a collection of sayings
of Jesus, no Christian writer of the first half of the second century (i.e.,
up to 150 A.D.) quotes the Gospels or their reputed authors.'"
In "The Christ Myth," John Remsburg elucidates:
"The Four Gospels were unknown to the early Christian Fathers. Justin Martyr
, the most eminent of the early Fathers, wrote about the middle of the
second century. His writings in proof of the divinity of Christ demanded the
use of these Gospels, had they existed in his time. He makes more than 300
quotations from the books of the Old Testament, and nearly one hundred from
the Apocryphal books of the New Testament; but none from the four Gospels.
Rev. Giles says: 'The very names of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, Luke and
John, are never mentioned by him (Justin) - do not occur once in all his
writings.'"
And Judge Charles Waite says:
"At the very threshold of the subject, we are met by the fact, that nowhere
in all the writings of Justin, does he once so much as mention any of these
gospels. Nor does he mention either of their supposed authors, except John.
Once his name occurs; not, however, as the author of a gospel, but in such a
connection as raises a very strong presumption that Justin knew of no
gospel of John the Apostle."
Waite further states:
"No one of the four gospels is mentioned in any other part of the New
Testament.... No work of art of any kind has ever been discovered, no
painting, or engraving, no sculpture, or other relic of antiquity, which may
be looked upon as furnishing additional evidence of the existence of those
gospels, and which was executed earlier than the latter part of the second
century. Even the exploration of the Christian catacombs failed to bring to
light any evidence of that character.... The four gospels were written in
Greek, and there was no translation of them into other languages, earlier
than the third century."
The Gospel of Luke (170 CE)
The Gospel of Luke is acknowledged by early church fathers to be of a late
date. As Waite states:
"...Jerome admits that not only the Gospel of Basilides, composed about A.D.
125, and other gospels, admitted to have been first published in the second
century, were written before that of Luke, but even the Gospel of Apelles
also, which was written not earlier than A.D. 160."
The Gospel of Mark (175 CE)
Like Waite, Mead also does not put Mark first: "It is very evident that Mt.
and Lk. do not use our Mk., though they use most the material contained in
our Mk..."
The Gospel of John (178 CE)
The Gospel of John is thought by most authorities to be the latest of the
four, but Waite provides a compelling argument to place it third and reveals
its purpose not only in refuting the Gnostics but also in establishing the
primacy of the Roman Church:
"So strong is the evidence of a late date to this gospel, that its apostolic
origin is being abandoned by the ablest evangelical writers.... Both
Irenaeus and Jerome assert that John wrote against Cerinthus. Cerinthus thus
flourished about A.D. 145. [T]here is evidence that in the construction of
this gospel, as in that of Matthew, the author had in view the building up
of the Roman hierarchy, the foundations of which were then (about A.D. 177-
89) being laid.... There is a reason to believe that both [John and Matthew]
were written in the interest of the supremacy of the Church of Rome."
The Gospel of Matthew (180 CE)
Although it was claimed by later Christian writers to be a "translation" of
a manuscript written in Hebrew by the apostle Matthew, the Gospel of Matthew
did not exist prior to the end of the second century and was originally
written in Greek. As Waite says:
"The Greek Gospel of Matthew was a subsequent production, and either
originally appeared in the Greek language, or was a translation of the
Gospel of the Hebrews, with extensive changes and additions. There is reason
to believe it to have been an original compilation, based upon the Oracles
of Christ, but containing, in whole, or in part, a number of other
manuscripts."
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其实你的部分问题在我没信主之前有问过。但是当我被光照之后(或者你会认为这些体
验别的宗教也存在），信仰和理性不是一个范畴的东西，这些问题就不会困扰我了。
Heb 11:1 信就是所望之事的实底，是未见之事的确据。
祝喜乐平安
——〉〉〉不放弃理性是没办法信的对不？
祝你在耶稣的大爱里面会为五体投地赞美杀婴屠城的耶和华而良心安稳， 虽然你根本
不用被祝， lol
【在 d**b 的大作中提到】
: 其一，他“引用”的就是楼上你那样的抄文么？那我是不是也可以说，四福音书是后人
: 参考了他的大作后写出来的copy cat？至于耶稣么，在他的年代，你们除了希伯来旧约
: 还有几部经书？完全看不出来这有什么可比性
: -------------------------------------------
: 是的。我认为那就是应用。因为如果现在的文章里面有一段这么长的文字并且没有引号
: ，会被定义为抄袭。
: 如果你认为四福音书是从这边书copy的，那我也无话可说啦。
: 旧约是只有一本，但作者超过四个吧。所以我认为是可比的。
: 其二，那个年代所谓的福音书非常多，你怎么能够确定，这位作者引用的是马可路加那
: 几位的？说到使徒回忆录 作者有没有提到哪怕一次这几位的名字？据说约翰死于100年
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