G*********s
发帖数: 6786 | 1 请问：
肖传国既然在美国拿钱，有没有在美国进行大量的临床试验？
肖传国的80%治愈率数据来自哪里？
有时间的看看这个吧
http://xysblogs.org/wp-content/blogs/107/uploads/xpletter.html
9. The outcomes of clinical trials outside China were not "promising" as
claimed by Beaumont Hospitals. Firstly, the NIH sponsored multi-million-
dollar trial (Grant Number: 5R01DK053063) on spinal cord injury (SCI)
conducted by New York University (NYU) from 1999 to 2006 has so far
produced no official result, except for a conference abstract that
reported two cases with results that are much worse than Dr. Xiao's
(mean PVR=200 cc in NYU's report vs. 31 cc in Dr. Xiao's first 15 SCI
patients, for example). Secondly, the information presented in
Beaumont's one-year report on spina bifida (SB) cases were selective and
rather vague. There was no mention of the SCI cases, although the
purpose of the trial was initially for both SCI and SB (see
ClinicalTrials.gov registry), and its first procedure was for SCI, which
"garnered national attention and appeared in more than 160 news outlets"
(see Beaumont's website). There was no pre- and post-operative
comparison, which should be essential for a clinical report. The mean
and standard deviation of postoperative urodynamic data were much worse
than what Dr. Xiao had reported (mean PVR=119 cc in Beaumont's report
vs. 23.67 cc in Dr. Xiao's first 20 SB patients, for example), which
should invalidate his claims to some extent. The side effects were also
understated. Thirdly, according to Dr. Xiao's presentation at SIU 2009,
all of the 6 SCI cases in Germany had failed ("only 2 showed some
improvement"). Meanwhile, according to the media, all 3 patients with
SCI at Beaumont were also "not helped by the procedure". Statistically,
the failure of all third-party SCI cases may proclaim the failure of the
principle of the Xiao Procedure, especially considering that the
"success" of Dr. Xiao's very first human trials and animal studies were
all of SCI. The recent NIH-funded trial was entitled "Safety and
Efficacy of Nerve Rerouting for Treating Neurogenic Bladder in Spina
Bifida" without mentioning SCI, which may speak for itself. Finally, Dr.
Xiao blamed the failure of SCI cases to "incorrect patient selection"
and "inappropriate postoperative care". The former indicates, at least
in part, the "success" of Beaumont's SB patients was due to "extensive
preoperative evaluation" (see Beaumont's one year report); the latter
contradicts the "success" of Beaumont's SB patients who should have
received the same postoperative care.
10. Beaumont Hospitals propagated the myth of the Xiao Procedure to
patients. In response to patients' inquiries, Beaumont repeatedly
provided false information that the procedure is "now standard of care"
in China and is "done everyday in hospitals in China". The fact is that
the procedure has never become standard of care in China. In the more
recent years, the now-closed Shenyuan Hospital was the only institute
that performed this surgery. Dr. Xiao's team is so far the only one that
performs it. Furthermore, Beaumont suggested patients going to China for
the surgery, in spite of that the surgery is still under trial in the
U.S. and the "results are too immature." Beaumont's indiscreet reference
might have resulted in serious consequences: more than 90 U.S. patients
had been "successfully treated" by the procedure, as announced by the
website of Dr. Xiao's Chinese Journal of Clinical Urology; and each
foreign patient was charged about 20,000 USD, as disclosed online by a
patient. |
l*****e
发帖数: 1431 | 2 挺肖的人最爱拿NIH给钱来说明手术是好的，那他们一定不知道NIH还给钱资助去大别山
偷遗传病家族的DNA。
【在 G*********s 的大作中提到】
: 请问：
: 肖传国既然在美国拿钱，有没有在美国进行大量的临床试验？
: 肖传国的80%治愈率数据来自哪里？
: 有时间的看看这个吧
: http://xysblogs.org/wp-content/blogs/107/uploads/xpletter.html
: 9. The outcomes of clinical trials outside China were not "promising" as
: claimed by Beaumont Hospitals. Firstly, the NIH sponsored multi-million-
: dollar trial (Grant Number: 5R01DK053063) on spinal cord injury (SCI)
: conducted by New York University (NYU) from 1999 to 2006 has so far
: produced no official result, except for a conference abstract that
|
G*********s
发帖数: 6786 | 3 1. According to Dr. Xiao, he has "dedicated my live to SCI research since
1976" [1]. The animal studies on cats [2] and clinical trials of 15 patients
[3] are all for SCI.
2. Dr. Xiao's papers on SCI were published "in highly regarded western
journals" in 1999 and 2003, co-authored with Dr. de Groat, "the most
respected name in bladder physiology" [4]. We note that, in his recent
reviews [5, 6] on bladder function recovery after SCI, Dr. de Groat gave no
word to Dr. Xiao's work.
3. From 1999 to 2007, the NIH awarded Dr. Xiao more than 2.4 million dollars
for the clinical trial in SCI at New York University (NYU) [7]. It was said
that 40 SCI patients had been involved with an 80% response rate [8], but
so far there has been no official result released, except for a conference
abstract [9] that reported two cases with much worse urodynamic results than
Dr. Xiao's first 15 SCI patients in China [3]. We note that NYU
discontinued its clinical study after spending multi-million dollars for
only two cases.
4. In December 2006, William Beaumont Hospitals started the clinical trial [
10] in both SCI and spina bifida (SB). In Beaumont's one-year clinical
outcomes [11], no SCI case was reported. We know from media [12] that "the
three with spinal cord injuries were not helped by the procedure". More over
, in May 2009, the mother of one of the Beaumont's first SCI patients asked
for help to buy catheters for her son [13].
5. In December 2009, Beaumont obtained a grant from the NIH for the clinical
trial in SB [14]. The trial no longer includes SCI.
6. All of the 6 SCI cases in Tubingen, Germany have failed, "only 2 showed
some improvement" [15].
7. Dr. Xiao blamed the failure of SCI cases to "incorrect patient selection"
and "inappropriate postoperative care" [15]. In at least two of his posts
on Chinese forums [16, 17], he further blamed the misuse of Ditropan. But
according to the mother of the patient [18], the patients at Beaumont had
already been required to quit Ditropan.
References
[1] http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showpos...9&postcount=36
[2] Xiao CG, de Groat WC, Godec CJ, Dai C and Xiao Q (1999). "Skin-CNS-
bladder" reflex pathway for micturition after spinal cord injury and its
underlying mechanisms. J Urol 162: 936-42.
[3] Xiao CG, Du MX, Dai C, Li B, Nitti VW and de Groat WC (2003). An
artificial somatic-central nervous system-autonomic reflex pathway for
controllable micturition after spinal cord injury: preliminary results in 15
patients. J Urol 170: 1237-41.
[4] http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showpos...0&postcount=33
[5] de Groat WC, Yoshimura N. Mechanisms underlying the recovery of lower
urinary tract function following spinal cord injury. Progress in Brain
Research. 2006;152:59-84.
[6] Fowler CJ, Griffiths D, de Groat WC. The neural control of micturition.
Nature Reviews Neuroscience. 2008 Jun;9(6):453-66.
[7] http://projectreporter.nih.gov/proje...fm?aid=6698512
[8] Blount JP and Tuite G. Xiao Procedure. Pediatric ShortCuts Newsletter.
Spring 2009
http://www.neurosurgery.org/xiaoS09.asp
Note: Dr. Tuite is one of the neurosurgeons who lead the clinical trial at
ACH, see:
http://www.wctv.tv/medicalminute/int.../47870982.html
[9] http://www.urotoday.com/264/conferen...__part_10.html
[10] http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NCT00378664
[11] http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retri...22534709608843
[12] http://www.tampabay.com/features/hum...icle984049.ece
[13] http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showthread.php?t=118791
[14] http://projectreporter.nih.gov/proje...fm?aid=7696321
[15] http://webcasts.prous.com/netadmin/w...lid=10196&pv=2
[16] http://www.chinagonet.com/main/view_...hp?pid=2251853
[17] http://www.starlakeporch.net/bbs/rea...2175#msg-52175
[18] http://sci.rutgers.edu/forum/showpos...7&postcount=34
【在 G*********s 的大作中提到】
: 请问：
: 肖传国既然在美国拿钱，有没有在美国进行大量的临床试验？
: 肖传国的80%治愈率数据来自哪里？
: 有时间的看看这个吧
: http://xysblogs.org/wp-content/blogs/107/uploads/xpletter.html
: 9. The outcomes of clinical trials outside China were not "promising" as
: claimed by Beaumont Hospitals. Firstly, the NIH sponsored multi-million-
: dollar trial (Grant Number: 5R01DK053063) on spinal cord injury (SCI)
: conducted by New York University (NYU) from 1999 to 2006 has so far
: produced no official result, except for a conference abstract that
|
k****z
发帖数: 1863 | 4 f*ck off, none of your business
it is business of NIH,and US doctors
我觉得这是对你们最好的回应 |
l*****e
发帖数: 1431 | 5 这人要不是跟肖锤子有利益关系，我把WB都输给纯妈
【在 k****z 的大作中提到】
: f*ck off, none of your business
: it is business of NIH,and US doctors
: 我觉得这是对你们最好的回应
|
n*********0
发帖数: 1543 | 6 其实做生物的都知道，特别是translational/clinical 这一块儿，多少临床实验其实
都是基础在很questionable的science上。病人很无助的。
别一听NIH，RO1就以为是solid的东西。
NIH钱是大家的饭碗，里面属于忽悠的东西还是有不少的。一些小圈子里面人都知道整
个这个小领域都是有问题的，但是评审都是这一帮指着这块儿吃饭的人，谁也不说破。
多少实验室，多少人都靠这些钱活呢，互相拆台互砸饭碗傻啊。
NIH其实也是广种薄收。反正大家都说，科学会自我纠正的。长远是这样。大浪淘沙，
经得起检验的留下来。但这个过程里，浑水摸鱼的是存在的。
至少肖在中国开神源医院敛钱，哼哼。
挺他的人是不是都觉得中国病患的权益不重要。 |
G*********s
发帖数: 6786 | 7 仅仅知道F word的人也挺可悲的
【在 k****z 的大作中提到】
: f*ck off, none of your business
: it is business of NIH,and US doctors
: 我觉得这是对你们最好的回应
|
k****z
发帖数: 1863 | 8 人家病人愿意签字被肖传国宰割
有本事方也去宰割一下
那一天方和他的家人得了这个病，千万不要请肖宰割
【在 n*********0 的大作中提到】
: 其实做生物的都知道，特别是translational/clinical 这一块儿，多少临床实验其实
: 都是基础在很questionable的science上。病人很无助的。
: 别一听NIH，RO1就以为是solid的东西。
: NIH钱是大家的饭碗，里面属于忽悠的东西还是有不少的。一些小圈子里面人都知道整
: 个这个小领域都是有问题的，但是评审都是这一帮指着这块儿吃饭的人，谁也不说破。
: 多少实验室，多少人都靠这些钱活呢，互相拆台互砸饭碗傻啊。
: NIH其实也是广种薄收。反正大家都说，科学会自我纠正的。长远是这样。大浪淘沙，
: 经得起检验的留下来。但这个过程里，浑水摸鱼的是存在的。
: 至少肖在中国开神源医院敛钱，哼哼。
: 挺他的人是不是都觉得中国病患的权益不重要。
|
k****z
发帖数: 1863 | 9 actually， even use F word is waste of time to people like you
【在 G*********s 的大作中提到】
: 仅仅知道F word的人也挺可悲的
|
n*********0
发帖数: 1543 | 10 肖搞大挺好。
方舟子和他再次死磕，越激烈越好，大白天下，大家自己判断。 |
|
|
G*********s
发帖数: 6786 | 11 Just go away, please
【在 k****z 的大作中提到】
: actually， even use F word is waste of time to people like you
|
n*********0
发帖数: 1543 | 12 术前给病人好好讲清楚风险和预后了么？
把术前协议和给病人看的关于这个手术的资料放上来给看看。
病患和医生power不对等，你当大家都傻。
为什么癌症领域各种假冒虚假宣传最多？利用病人绝望的心理嘛。最缺德的。
【在 k****z 的大作中提到】
: 人家病人愿意签字被肖传国宰割
: 有本事方也去宰割一下
: 那一天方和他的家人得了这个病，千万不要请肖宰割
|
p****s
发帖数: 3184 | 13 肖其实是个不错的researcher，不过他的东西现阶段也只能发发paper。
大跃进到临床手术阶段是这小子鬼迷心窍了，害人骗钱。在美国外科手术一例失败就够
喝一壶的，几百例失败还想当医生那太阳要从西面出来了。 |
k****z
发帖数: 1863 | 14 是的，
肖手术在沈阳，深圳又开做了，
肘子快上
看谁死
【在 n*********0 的大作中提到】
: 肖搞大挺好。
: 方舟子和他再次死磕，越激烈越好，大白天下，大家自己判断。
|
G*********s
发帖数: 6786 | 15 对，关键是这点。
按说弄点NIH的钱也无可厚非，没有完善的东西直接就在人身上动刀，而且是大批量，
太没人性了
【在 p****s 的大作中提到】
: 肖其实是个不错的researcher，不过他的东西现阶段也只能发发paper。
: 大跃进到临床手术阶段是这小子鬼迷心窍了，害人骗钱。在美国外科手术一例失败就够
: 喝一壶的，几百例失败还想当医生那太阳要从西面出来了。
|
n*********0
发帖数: 1543 | 16 支持。
使劲折腾。
越大越好。
这回一定要闹到卫生部正式结论，不给说法不算完。
微博打仗造舆论啥的都是外围，不是专业人员任人忽悠。
赶紧的。我们坐着看热闹。
另外最好说明白，深圳做是卫生部批准的么？把现在卫生部对这手术的意见文件放上来
好么？
【在 k****z 的大作中提到】
: 是的，
: 肖手术在沈阳，深圳又开做了，
: 肘子快上
: 看谁死
|
k****z
发帖数: 1863 | 17 支持，
请肘子们出手，使劲折腾，越大越好，一定要闹到卫生部，公安部
深圳做是没有卫生部批准，赶紧检举揭发，冲啊
【在 n*********0 的大作中提到】
: 支持。
: 使劲折腾。
: 越大越好。
: 这回一定要闹到卫生部正式结论，不给说法不算完。
: 微博打仗造舆论啥的都是外围，不是专业人员任人忽悠。
: 赶紧的。我们坐着看热闹。
: 另外最好说明白，深圳做是卫生部批准的么？把现在卫生部对这手术的意见文件放上来
: 好么？
|
k****z
发帖数: 1863 | 18 肖传国和痛苦的病人，其他医生是不会检举揭发自己的，
卫生部可能受了钱
应该直接告到九常委，不知菊花还有没有路？
不行直接找奥巴马抗议 |
n*********0
发帖数: 1543 | 19 深圳做有没有卫生部批准，肖方放出来，方舟子就输一阵。
这么简单的事情，肖方需要做的就是摆事实数据，就是不愿做。
就是坚持打嘴仗，煽动情绪，对洗刷肖先生，是战略方针的错误啊。
【在 k****z 的大作中提到】
: 支持，
: 请肘子们出手，使劲折腾，越大越好，一定要闹到卫生部，公安部
: 深圳做是没有卫生部批准，赶紧检举揭发，冲啊
|
k*******2
发帖数: 1429 | 20 那得看在美国拿的什麽钱。龟公也在美国拿钱，拿的是工资，能给人做手术麽？
【在 G*********s 的大作中提到】
: 请问：
: 肖传国既然在美国拿钱，有没有在美国进行大量的临床试验？
: 肖传国的80%治愈率数据来自哪里？
: 有时间的看看这个吧
: http://xysblogs.org/wp-content/blogs/107/uploads/xpletter.html
: 9. The outcomes of clinical trials outside China were not "promising" as
: claimed by Beaumont Hospitals. Firstly, the NIH sponsored multi-million-
: dollar trial (Grant Number: 5R01DK053063) on spinal cord injury (SCI)
: conducted by New York University (NYU) from 1999 to 2006 has so far
: produced no official result, except for a conference abstract that
|
|
|
n*********0
发帖数: 1543 | 21 真的，不要这么激动。
回去好好把资料整理出来，心平气和放上来，
公道自在人心。
有理不在声高。
越是悲愤，越要冷静。
事实是最有力的反驳，不是吗？
【在 k****z 的大作中提到】
: 肖传国和痛苦的病人，其他医生是不会检举揭发自己的，
: 卫生部可能受了钱
: 应该直接告到九常委，不知菊花还有没有路？
: 不行直接找奥巴马抗议
|
k****z
发帖数: 1863 | 22 真把自己当根葱，你是谁呀？ 网上的一个ID ?
这样吧，你填写一份真实的数据申请，比方说美国民间团体
要求NIH公布数据需要走的步骤，你也做一遍，说清楚你是谁，为何要数据，等等...
不然一个网上ID,你以为是文革大字报呀
你脑子真他妈有问题 |
n*********0
发帖数: 1543 | 23 有意思，那你来mitbbs干什么？
纯粹为发泄？
你还是要争取网友支持？
争取支持是不是事实最有说服力？
您是要帮肖还是毁肖？
【在 k****z 的大作中提到】
: 真把自己当根葱，你是谁呀？ 网上的一个ID ?
: 这样吧，你填写一份真实的数据申请，比方说美国民间团体
: 要求NIH公布数据需要走的步骤，你也做一遍，说清楚你是谁，为何要数据，等等...
: 不然一个网上ID,你以为是文革大字报呀
: 你脑子真他妈有问题
|
k****z
发帖数: 1863 | 24 你是不是真傻？大家都闭嘴，让你们天天铁证吧
【在 n*********0 的大作中提到】
: 有意思，那你来mitbbs干什么？
: 纯粹为发泄？
: 你还是要争取网友支持？
: 争取支持是不是事实最有说服力？
: 您是要帮肖还是毁肖？
|
p****s
发帖数: 3184 | 25 这个问题我的看法有点不同。
肖这种人的问题不是假，而是他只遵守游戏规则，却唯名利是图无视道德规则。在美国
他不违反游戏规则，在中国他也没有违反，这种人实在太多，是打不过来的，因为大多
数普通人都这个德性，所以还是中国的规则的制定者和执行者的问题。在这个领域就是
中国卫生部的问题。
又要归结到中国的低效能巨无霸政府的问题上了。
上面说的是肖的那个手术问题。至于肖雇凶杀人的问题，在美国这是谋杀未遂，不可能是寻衅滋事这么轻。天朝的司法还是神奇。
【在 G*********s 的大作中提到】
: 对，关键是这点。
: 按说弄点NIH的钱也无可厚非，没有完善的东西直接就在人身上动刀，而且是大批量，
: 太没人性了
|
m**x
发帖数: 8454 | 26 the patients obviously were cheated or at least kept from knowing the true
information about the operation, you idiot!
【在 k****z 的大作中提到】
: 人家病人愿意签字被肖传国宰割
: 有本事方也去宰割一下
: 那一天方和他的家人得了这个病，千万不要请肖宰割
|
G*********s
发帖数: 6786 | 27 中国卫生部估计说的话都被当成了放屁
能是寻衅滋事这么轻。天朝的司法还是神奇。
【在 p****s 的大作中提到】
: 这个问题我的看法有点不同。
: 肖这种人的问题不是假，而是他只遵守游戏规则，却唯名利是图无视道德规则。在美国
: 他不违反游戏规则，在中国他也没有违反，这种人实在太多，是打不过来的，因为大多
: 数普通人都这个德性，所以还是中国的规则的制定者和执行者的问题。在这个领域就是
: 中国卫生部的问题。
: 又要归结到中国的低效能巨无霸政府的问题上了。
: 上面说的是肖的那个手术问题。至于肖雇凶杀人的问题，在美国这是谋杀未遂，不可能是寻衅滋事这么轻。天朝的司法还是神奇。
|
q********n
发帖数: 3248 | |
M****u
发帖数: 4504 | 29 只能用脑残方粉来形容输了官司，买假证，拿打假基金发工资的人了。
【在 q********n 的大作中提到】
: 只能用灭绝人性来形容这些人了
|
p********n
发帖数: 2482 | 30 的确太令人惊讶了。
挺肖要对方舟子恨到什么程度才能到这个地步。
肖跟方舟子还有点恩怨，肖跟方玄昌有啥过节？要凶狠到这个地步。就这个败类竟然还
有人强烈支持。
可悲。
【在 q********n 的大作中提到】
: 只能用灭绝人性来形容这些人了
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M******G
发帖数: 178 | 31
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说这话要么就是无知，要么就是丧良心。病人签字是基于对肖的信任，也有被忽悠的成
分。为啥拿中国人当小白鼠，在美国肖敢不敢这么做？
【在 k****z 的大作中提到】
: 人家病人愿意签字被肖传国宰割
: 有本事方也去宰割一下
: 那一天方和他的家人得了这个病，千万不要请肖宰割
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