T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 1 It's easier said than done.
释永信：我的态度就像昔日寒山(文殊菩萨化身)问拾得(普贤菩萨化身)：世间谤我、欺
我、辱我、笑我、轻我、贱我、恶我、骗我，如何处治乎？拾得曰：只是忍他、让他、
由他、避他、耐他、敬他、不要理他，再待几年你且看他。
http://www.mitbbs.com/news_wenzhang/SportsNews/31198903.html | t********n
发帖数: 571 | 2 you got it.
it is even very hard to be not said. | l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 3 我是觉得应该做个吾日三省吾身，先检查一下为什么“世间谤我、欺我、辱我、笑我、
轻我、贱我、恶我、骗我”
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: It's easier said than done.
: 释永信：我的态度就像昔日寒山(文殊菩萨化身)问拾得(普贤菩萨化身)：世间谤我、欺
: 我、辱我、笑我、轻我、贱我、恶我、骗我，如何处治乎？拾得曰：只是忍他、让他、
: 由他、避他、耐他、敬他、不要理他，再待几年你且看他。
: http://www.mitbbs.com/news_wenzhang/SportsNews/31198903.html
| d********d
发帖数: 1424 | 4 一个人要真混到那程度, 不忍还能做啥?
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 我是觉得应该做个吾日三省吾身，先检查一下为什么“世间谤我、欺我、辱我、笑我、
: 轻我、贱我、恶我、骗我”
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 5 It's both needed. I will check myself to see where I am, whether I want to
change, or what I want to change.
However, no matter what I am, there are going to be people who like me and
dislike me, and that's their issues, not mine. I will still be me.
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 我是觉得应该做个吾日三省吾身，先检查一下为什么“世间谤我、欺我、辱我、笑我、
: 轻我、贱我、恶我、骗我”
| b**d
发帖数: 7644 | 6 你这个是不是我见，我执呀？
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: It's both needed. I will check myself to see where I am, whether I want to
: change, or what I want to change.
: However, no matter what I am, there are going to be people who like me and
: dislike me, and that's their issues, not mine. I will still be me.
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 7 I don't know what is 我见，我执 ah.
I want to say that there's really no one, not even Buddha, who can please
everyone. Pleasing sometimes does not satisfy the other person, and then the
one pleases often feels resentment when his/her pleasing (or sacrificing)
didn't give him/her the result s/he wants, and nobody benefits from it.
It's better to be simple to be oneself, to express one's opinions, either
the other person agrees or not, that's fine.
【在 b**d 的大作中提到】
: 你这个是不是我见，我执呀？
| Y**u
发帖数: 5466 | 8 这句话释永信说出来感觉很滑稽。释永信以发扬广大少林寺和佛教为名， 这些年干了
些什么大家都知道， 为了商业利益的扩大花， 戒律清规荡然无存，佛教乃至少林都成
了笑话。 尽管现在这件事（绯闻）多半是假的， 但是无风不起浪， 今天他受到了一
点不公正， 就拿出寒山的话来当挡箭牌， 这和寒山的本意已经不是一回事了。。他如
果真的能像寒山一样， 又何必去和记者说这些， 乃至让天下人都知道他的操守境界之
高。。这哪里是在忍， 是在避， 是在不要理。。 是另一次宣传自己的戏罢了。。
另外， 寒山拾得的对话是有背景的。 自禅宗出世以来， 提出了顿教法门， 这在正宗
佛教内部在各个时期都不被承认， 而备受打击。。在禅宗的历史上， 经常有人专门提
场子， 坛经中就有＂师见诸宗难问。咸起恶心。多集座下。＂这样的记录， 在后来的
历史中有很多， 走到哪里， 也都是一样。。禅宗的很多大德， 今天我们看他们很潇
洒，其实当年的传法环境很糟糕。。人身的攻击， 乃至性命都会有危险。。这是个背
景， 是在讲因为法而受到的不公待遇。。
这和释永信今天的背景完全是不同的。。当然今天人们把这种精神引伸到个人的修养上
， 到也也是可以。 然而一切都是有条件的，如果人人在任何情况下都是这样的心态，
也未必就是正确的， 比如说当外敌入侵的时候， 我们是不是也去忍、让，由，避，
耐，敬，不要理呢。。显然是不通的。。
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: It's easier said than done.
: 释永信：我的态度就像昔日寒山(文殊菩萨化身)问拾得(普贤菩萨化身)：世间谤我、欺
: 我、辱我、笑我、轻我、贱我、恶我、骗我，如何处治乎？拾得曰：只是忍他、让他、
: 由他、避他、耐他、敬他、不要理他，再待几年你且看他。
: http://www.mitbbs.com/news_wenzhang/SportsNews/31198903.html
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 9 I see. I didn't follow the news much. It's good to know.
【在 Y**u 的大作中提到】
: 这句话释永信说出来感觉很滑稽。释永信以发扬广大少林寺和佛教为名， 这些年干了
: 些什么大家都知道， 为了商业利益的扩大花， 戒律清规荡然无存，佛教乃至少林都成
: 了笑话。 尽管现在这件事（绯闻）多半是假的， 但是无风不起浪， 今天他受到了一
: 点不公正， 就拿出寒山的话来当挡箭牌， 这和寒山的本意已经不是一回事了。。他如
: 果真的能像寒山一样， 又何必去和记者说这些， 乃至让天下人都知道他的操守境界之
: 高。。这哪里是在忍， 是在避， 是在不要理。。 是另一次宣传自己的戏罢了。。
: 另外， 寒山拾得的对话是有背景的。 自禅宗出世以来， 提出了顿教法门， 这在正宗
: 佛教内部在各个时期都不被承认， 而备受打击。。在禅宗的历史上， 经常有人专门提
: 场子， 坛经中就有＂师见诸宗难问。咸起恶心。多集座下。＂这样的记录， 在后来的
: 历史中有很多， 走到哪里， 也都是一样。。禅宗的很多大德， 今天我们看他们很潇
| Y**u
发帖数: 5466 | 10 嗯， 不知者不怪。。
记的前几年这家伙还搞了个禅宗机锋辩论大会，出了几句话， 让人对下句， 我们尊敬
的易中天老师也跑去捧了一下自己， 几个人吃了顿饭， 喝了几杯茶， 看了几场表演
， 打了几圈妄想，禅宗在少林就此画了个大大的句号了。。爽
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I see. I didn't follow the news much. It's good to know.
| | | T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 11 "禅宗在少林就此画了个大大的句号" what story is this?
【在 Y**u 的大作中提到】
: 嗯， 不知者不怪。。
: 记的前几年这家伙还搞了个禅宗机锋辩论大会，出了几句话， 让人对下句， 我们尊敬
: 的易中天老师也跑去捧了一下自己， 几个人吃了顿饭， 喝了几杯茶， 看了几场表演
: ， 打了几圈妄想，禅宗在少林就此画了个大大的句号了。。爽
| Y**u
发帖数: 5466 | 12 不是没有禅了， 只是没有师了。。
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: "禅宗在少林就此画了个大大的句号" what story is this?
| Y**u
发帖数: 5466 | 13 刚去少林看了一下， 赫然发现这个活动年年都有。。下面是今年2011的题， 出的都极
没水平， 一看出题的人自己就还在妄想呢， 第一个题出的就有问题，达摩的原话是 "
廓然无圣＂，
1、达摩祖师云：“廓然无相”，指什么？
2、梦里为何有六趣，觉后反而无大千？
3、父母未生前，如何是我本来面目？
4、雪印心珠，何为心珠？
5、达摩为何只履西归？
6、一叶障目，不见灵山，若见自性时，还见灵山否？ | T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 14 People say that every expertise may take at least 5 years (10000 hours) to
polish it into shape. I feel that you have been studying Buddhism for many
years. How did you begin?
For an outsider like me, I don't know their questions are problematic or not
either way. I feel the same way when I read the debate between runsun and
waichi, as I just don't know who is right. I guess that there are perhaps
many people like me.
Who is clean in 少林 nowadays then? Last time I met 德建禅师 from 禅武医,
but his talk was kinda short and we couldn't talk much afterwards.
"
【在 Y**u 的大作中提到】
: 刚去少林看了一下， 赫然发现这个活动年年都有。。下面是今年2011的题， 出的都极
: 没水平， 一看出题的人自己就还在妄想呢， 第一个题出的就有问题，达摩的原话是 "
: 廓然无圣＂，
: 1、达摩祖师云：“廓然无相”，指什么？
: 2、梦里为何有六趣，觉后反而无大千？
: 3、父母未生前，如何是我本来面目？
: 4、雪印心珠，何为心珠？
: 5、达摩为何只履西归？
: 6、一叶障目，不见灵山，若见自性时，还见灵山否？
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 15 谤欺辱笑轻贱恶骗已经超越喜欢和不喜欢了吧，苍蝇不抱没缝的蛋，没锋芒露出来哪来
的这么多锋芒针对
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: It's both needed. I will check myself to see where I am, whether I want to
: change, or what I want to change.
: However, no matter what I am, there are going to be people who like me and
: dislike me, and that's their issues, not mine. I will still be me.
| Y**u
发帖数: 5466 | 16 不好意思， 我在这里不算是什么懂佛法的。。很难说是怎么开始的。 我一开始是学道
家的。。灵宝毕法是最爱。。。喜欢道家天人合一的理念， 和清静无为， 廓然自由的
境界。。后来机缘引领下， 由善知识带进了禅宗。
大概就是这样的。。至于你说的谁对谁错的问题。。我是这么看的， 任何一种道路，
如果不能导向戒定慧， 就是错的， 否则就是对的。 这首先是对自己而言。
戒就是没有妄想， 常常觉察自己没有妄想就是定， 定的时候又没有我在定的想法就是
慧。。
所有的办法都是为了灭苦， 禅宗只是选择了一条重满荆棘的近路。。
not
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: People say that every expertise may take at least 5 years (10000 hours) to
: polish it into shape. I feel that you have been studying Buddhism for many
: years. How did you begin?
: For an outsider like me, I don't know their questions are problematic or not
: either way. I feel the same way when I read the debate between runsun and
: waichi, as I just don't know who is right. I guess that there are perhaps
: many people like me.
: Who is clean in 少林 nowadays then? Last time I met 德建禅师 from 禅武医,
: but his talk was kinda short and we couldn't talk much afterwards.
:
| d********d
发帖数: 1424 | 17 人要想混到那份上，真的不是件容易的事。
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 谤欺辱笑轻贱恶骗已经超越喜欢和不喜欢了吧，苍蝇不抱没缝的蛋，没锋芒露出来哪来
: 的这么多锋芒针对
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 18 还能做很多，譬如来个简单粗暴的大爆发，参看大话西游的大圣，或者Q大师化，大唱
一个众人皆醉俺独醒，俺看到的你们世人不懂啊，
【在 d********d 的大作中提到】
: 一个人要真混到那程度, 不忍还能做啥?
| d********d
发帖数: 1424 | 19 大话西游的大圣也没混到那份上吧。
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 还能做很多，譬如来个简单粗暴的大爆发，参看大话西游的大圣，或者Q大师化，大唱
: 一个众人皆醉俺独醒，俺看到的你们世人不懂啊，
| t********n
发帖数: 571 | 20 也不能一概而论的，比如老舍先生，那么一个处处和气，与人为善, 无锋无芒的人，有
时也会被人恶待的。其实少林的现任方仗有权有钱有资源，谁恶待得了他啊，也就是网
上被说说，他也好意思说这段话来给自己贴金，他还不如说＂任你们在网上骂我，再过
几年，你再看我赚多少钱＂
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 谤欺辱笑轻贱恶骗已经超越喜欢和不喜欢了吧，苍蝇不抱没缝的蛋，没锋芒露出来哪来
: 的这么多锋芒针对
| | | T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 21 I see your point, and Yisu also mentioned that 释永信 is an example of what
you've mentioned.
What I was talking about earlier was minor in comparison, mainly about self-
acceptance.
来的这么多锋芒针对
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 谤欺辱笑轻贱恶骗已经超越喜欢和不喜欢了吧，苍蝇不抱没缝的蛋，没锋芒露出来哪来
: 的这么多锋芒针对
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 22 I googled a bit on 灵宝毕法, it reads very nice.
So, you are more in 禅宗, could you tell me more about what is 禅宗?
especially why "禅宗只是选择了一条重满荆棘的近路。。"?
"戒就是没有妄想， 常常觉察自己没有妄想就是定， 定的时候又没有我在定的想法就
是慧。。" I like this explanation a lot, as this is something I can
understand to some extent. :-)
"所有的办法都是为了灭苦" eh, very good. My current understanding is still
that the Truth is universal, general, and simple.
道家的。。灵宝毕法是最爱。。。喜欢道家天人合一的理念， 和清静无为， 廓然自由
的境界。。后来机缘引领下， 由善知识带进了禅宗。
，如果不能导向戒定慧， 就是错的， 否则就是对的。 这首先是对自己而言。
是慧。。
【在 Y**u 的大作中提到】
: 不好意思， 我在这里不算是什么懂佛法的。。很难说是怎么开始的。 我一开始是学道
: 家的。。灵宝毕法是最爱。。。喜欢道家天人合一的理念， 和清静无为， 廓然自由的
: 境界。。后来机缘引领下， 由善知识带进了禅宗。
: 大概就是这样的。。至于你说的谁对谁错的问题。。我是这么看的， 任何一种道路，
: 如果不能导向戒定慧， 就是错的， 否则就是对的。 这首先是对自己而言。
: 戒就是没有妄想， 常常觉察自己没有妄想就是定， 定的时候又没有我在定的想法就是
: 慧。。
: 所有的办法都是为了灭苦， 禅宗只是选择了一条重满荆棘的近路。。
:
: not
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 23 As a human being we can not avoid defilements when "bad" things or persons
are coming.
The right way is to be very open and compassionate and with acceptance, we
just see them mindfully, and this seeing mind has equanimity.
Defilements will lose their power.
We can not change others either simply by 只是忍他、让他、由他、避他、耐他、
敬他、不要理他, but we can treat others with more loving-kindness.
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: It's easier said than done.
: 释永信：我的态度就像昔日寒山(文殊菩萨化身)问拾得(普贤菩萨化身)：世间谤我、欺
: 我、辱我、笑我、轻我、贱我、恶我、骗我，如何处治乎？拾得曰：只是忍他、让他、
: 由他、避他、耐他、敬他、不要理他，再待几年你且看他。
: http://www.mitbbs.com/news_wenzhang/SportsNews/31198903.html
| d********d
发帖数: 1424 | 24 你这个提议毫无现实意义。
被众人谤欺辱笑轻贱恶骗的，绝对做不到
忍让由避耐敬不理。反之
能忍让由避耐敬不理，不可能被
众人谤欺辱笑轻贱恶骗。
what
self-
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I see your point, and Yisu also mentioned that 释永信 is an example of what
: you've mentioned.
: What I was talking about earlier was minor in comparison, mainly about self-
: acceptance.
:
: 来的这么多锋芒针对
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 25 "戒就是没有妄想， 常常觉察自己没有妄想就是定， 定的时候又没有我在定的想法就
是慧。。"
This is not right.
There is strict definition of 戒定慧 （八正道）in Buddhism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I googled a bit on 灵宝毕法, it reads very nice.
: So, you are more in 禅宗, could you tell me more about what is 禅宗?
: especially why "禅宗只是选择了一条重满荆棘的近路。。"?
: "戒就是没有妄想， 常常觉察自己没有妄想就是定， 定的时候又没有我在定的想法就
: 是慧。。" I like this explanation a lot, as this is something I can
: understand to some extent. :-)
: "所有的办法都是为了灭苦" eh, very good. My current understanding is still
: that the Truth is universal, general, and simple.
:
: 道家的。。灵宝毕法是最爱。。。喜欢道家天人合一的理念， 和清静无为， 廓然自由
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 26 Agree!
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: It's both needed. I will check myself to see where I am, whether I want to
: change, or what I want to change.
: However, no matter what I am, there are going to be people who like me and
: dislike me, and that's their issues, not mine. I will still be me.
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 27 In principle, Buddha can please everyone if he wanted.:p
the
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I don't know what is 我见，我执 ah.
: I want to say that there's really no one, not even Buddha, who can please
: everyone. Pleasing sometimes does not satisfy the other person, and then the
: one pleases often feels resentment when his/her pleasing (or sacrificing)
: didn't give him/her the result s/he wants, and nobody benefits from it.
: It's better to be simple to be oneself, to express one's opinions, either
: the other person agrees or not, that's fine.
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 28 I see that it's a very touchy issue ah. There are indeed many examples as
what you have said.
Perhaps complete honesty towards oneself and towards others is the key to
help one always feel the peace, and then no matter what happens, s/he knows
that the truth will come out given enough time.
能忍让由避耐敬不理，不可能被众人谤欺辱笑轻贱恶骗。
Is Tom Hanks a nice family man? He projects that impression, and he has
tried to be very honest when he was interviewed. Well, his current long-
lasting and loving marriage started from an affair, which he admitted that
he was not proud of. He seems to be accepted now, with his mistakes and all.
被众人谤欺辱笑轻贱恶骗的，绝对做不到忍让由避耐敬不理。
Was Ellen DeGeneres boycotted miserably when she came out as gay? She couldn
't do much then. Well, given time, she regained her popularity, with both
her own honesty, and more social acceptance.
【在 d********d 的大作中提到】
: 你这个提议毫无现实意义。
: 被众人谤欺辱笑轻贱恶骗的，绝对做不到
: 忍让由避耐敬不理。反之
: 能忍让由避耐敬不理，不可能被
: 众人谤欺辱笑轻贱恶骗。
:
: what
: self-
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 29 他不是忍无可忍要把唐僧结果了么，正版里没带发卡的时候也打算这么干来着
【在 d********d 的大作中提到】
: 大话西游的大圣也没混到那份上吧。
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 30 With honesty and being mindful, the truth will come out immediately. :p
knows
all.
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I see that it's a very touchy issue ah. There are indeed many examples as
: what you have said.
: Perhaps complete honesty towards oneself and towards others is the key to
: help one always feel the peace, and then no matter what happens, s/he knows
: that the truth will come out given enough time.
: 能忍让由避耐敬不理，不可能被众人谤欺辱笑轻贱恶骗。
: Is Tom Hanks a nice family man? He projects that impression, and he has
: tried to be very honest when he was interviewed. Well, his current long-
: lasting and loving marriage started from an affair, which he admitted that
: he was not proud of. He seems to be accepted now, with his mistakes and all.
| | | d********d
发帖数: 1424 | 31 大圣只是被人唐僧了，不是被众人谤欺辱笑轻贱恶骗了。
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 他不是忍无可忍要把唐僧结果了么，正版里没带发卡的时候也打算这么干来着
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 32 The truth for myself is ever present and immediate with honesty.
But for others to see it, that's their business, it may take long, which I
have no control.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: With honesty and being mindful, the truth will come out immediately. :p
:
: knows
: all.
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 33 :-) It is not so easy, but it is worthy to try.
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: The truth for myself is ever present and immediate with honesty.
: But for others to see it, that's their business, it may take long, which I
: have no control.
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 34 The pleasing I mentioned earlier was one kind of manipulation, perhaps not
the satisfying/loving/understanding ability of Buddha for anyone that you
mentioned.
I remember seeing somewhere that Buddha was misunderstood by his pupils when
he accepted some food from a country woman, and he just let it go. He didn'
t make them stay or understand him. Given time, his way was understood by
others.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: In principle, Buddha can please everyone if he wanted.:p
:
: the
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 35 En :-)
when
didn'
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: The pleasing I mentioned earlier was one kind of manipulation, perhaps not
: the satisfying/loving/understanding ability of Buddha for anyone that you
: mentioned.
: I remember seeing somewhere that Buddha was misunderstood by his pupils when
: he accepted some food from a country woman, and he just let it go. He didn'
: t make them stay or understand him. Given time, his way was understood by
: others.
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 36 这倒也是，我开始打算举基督教1-300年翻身后的例子来着，不过考虑到这个版正在去
基督化。。。
【在 d********d 的大作中提到】
: 大圣只是被人唐僧了，不是被众人谤欺辱笑轻贱恶骗了。
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 37 嗯，不要提老舍啦，你说周恩来有没有锋芒?
【在 t********n 的大作中提到】
: 也不能一概而论的，比如老舍先生，那么一个处处和气，与人为善, 无锋无芒的人，有
: 时也会被人恶待的。其实少林的现任方仗有权有钱有资源，谁恶待得了他啊，也就是网
: 上被说说，他也好意思说这段话来给自己贴金，他还不如说＂任你们在网上骂我，再过
: 几年，你再看我赚多少钱＂
| Y**u
发帖数: 5466 | 38
嗯， 恐怕要先了解一些禅宗的经典， 否则三言两语可能也是说不清的。禅宗的经典说
来还不少，比如说有：
首楞严经，愣枷经，大般涅磐经，金刚经，六祖坛经，心经，圆觉经，维摩诘所说经，
永嘉证道歌，信心铭，息心铭 等， 但是如果是最初的了解， 我个人觉的六祖坛经比
较好，我在俱乐部曾经有过一个读坛经的活动， 有兴趣您可以去看一下。。
http://www.mitbbs.com/clubarticle_t/ChanDaoPractice/31010895.ht
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I googled a bit on 灵宝毕法, it reads very nice.
: So, you are more in 禅宗, could you tell me more about what is 禅宗?
: especially why "禅宗只是选择了一条重满荆棘的近路。。"?
: "戒就是没有妄想， 常常觉察自己没有妄想就是定， 定的时候又没有我在定的想法就
: 是慧。。" I like this explanation a lot, as this is something I can
: understand to some extent. :-)
: "所有的办法都是为了灭苦" eh, very good. My current understanding is still
: that the Truth is universal, general, and simple.
:
: 道家的。。灵宝毕法是最爱。。。喜欢道家天人合一的理念， 和清静无为， 廓然自由
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 39 Thank you so much!
In your post, taipingnan mentioned that "语言之所以可以用来交流，是因为大家
有共同的经历，有共识，比如说“桌子”，大家都知道那是啥，都用过见过嘛。但佛教
上的许多名词是没有共识的，佛教强调个人自己的修行和体悟，具体实修到了什么状态
，只有自己才最清楚，用名词说出来后，别人都会有自己的理解，至于这个理解到底有
几分和原说者的意思相应，那就要看个人自己的修行情况和悟性了。"
I agree with this very much. Even when I read the same book, what I
understand now is different from what I did one year ago. It's the same
words that I am reading, but I understand them differently given more of my
experiences. However, if I were to describe my experiences, I can't think of
some better words, despite them sounding like dogma or cliche.
There are things that can't be described by words and very personal. Analogy
is possible, but not accurate.
【在 Y**u 的大作中提到】
:
: 嗯， 恐怕要先了解一些禅宗的经典， 否则三言两语可能也是说不清的。禅宗的经典说
: 来还不少，比如说有：
: 首楞严经，愣枷经，大般涅磐经，金刚经，六祖坛经，心经，圆觉经，维摩诘所说经，
: 永嘉证道歌，信心铭，息心铭 等， 但是如果是最初的了解， 我个人觉的六祖坛经比
: 较好，我在俱乐部曾经有过一个读坛经的活动， 有兴趣您可以去看一下。。
: http://www.mitbbs.com/clubarticle_t/ChanDaoPractice/31010895.ht
| Y**u
发帖数: 5466 | 40 En...You are very welcome. Another aspect of Chan Zong is that it tries to free a person from the language itself by the use of Language. It believes that the different understanding of the language are attachment too, and there is no right
understanding but the right insight since an undersatnding is also just an
self illusion. Even if one can undesrand the words correctly, he is still
not the truth behind the words. Simply put, be the moon, other than the
finger pointing to the moon. It tried to help a person to reach a state
where language can't describe and a totally new insight shows up there. CHan
Zhong is one teaching which negates everything, including itself if that
could help to get there.
my
of
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: Thank you so much!
: In your post, taipingnan mentioned that "语言之所以可以用来交流，是因为大家
: 有共同的经历，有共识，比如说“桌子”，大家都知道那是啥，都用过见过嘛。但佛教
: 上的许多名词是没有共识的，佛教强调个人自己的修行和体悟，具体实修到了什么状态
: ，只有自己才最清楚，用名词说出来后，别人都会有自己的理解，至于这个理解到底有
: 几分和原说者的意思相应，那就要看个人自己的修行情况和悟性了。"
: I agree with this very much. Even when I read the same book, what I
: understand now is different from what I did one year ago. It's the same
: words that I am reading, but I understand them differently given more of my
: experiences. However, if I were to describe my experiences, I can't think of
| | | T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 41 This speaks to me a lot. Thank you!
Let's take a simple example on what you say: if a person has never tasted
some food, no matter how much others can describe the taste, texture,
ingredients, or smell to this person, he can't experience it or fully
understand it. However, once he tastes it, he knows.
The same applies to other experiences, such as the peace to accept all that'
s happening and the trust to feel that all is well, unconditional self-love,
the most passionate romantic love, parental love, freedom from false
thoughts, or simply the joy.
free a person from the language itself by the use of Language.
【在 Y**u 的大作中提到】
: En...You are very welcome. Another aspect of Chan Zong is that it tries to free a person from the language itself by the use of Language. It believes that the different understanding of the language are attachment too, and there is no right
: understanding but the right insight since an undersatnding is also just an
: self illusion. Even if one can undesrand the words correctly, he is still
: not the truth behind the words. Simply put, be the moon, other than the
: finger pointing to the moon. It tried to help a person to reach a state
: where language can't describe and a totally new insight shows up there. CHan
: Zhong is one teaching which negates everything, including itself if that
: could help to get there.
:
: my
| Y**u
发帖数: 5466 | 42 Agree. With this good example, Chan Zhong probably can go to another level..
.That's even if one have bite the apple, known the feeling, tasting of the
apple, but he still might not really know the apple.. To know the appple,
one needs to BE the apple itself. And In order to do that, one needs to
negate whatever he had learned about the apple and be free from the touching
, feeling, teates and thinking of it..be the apple so to experience what the
apple has expeienced, then one can say yes, I know the apple now, because I
am. Simply put, in Chan ZHong, the ultimate goal is not to know the truth,
but to experience the truth as itself. All the boundraies between we and the
truth must be removed, no matter what it is, good or bad, holly or
otherwise.
that'
love,
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: This speaks to me a lot. Thank you!
: Let's take a simple example on what you say: if a person has never tasted
: some food, no matter how much others can describe the taste, texture,
: ingredients, or smell to this person, he can't experience it or fully
: understand it. However, once he tastes it, he knows.
: The same applies to other experiences, such as the peace to accept all that'
: s happening and the trust to feel that all is well, unconditional self-love,
: the most passionate romantic love, parental love, freedom from false
: thoughts, or simply the joy.
:
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 43 I see. This explains it very well to me. Thank you!
At a mundane level for the interaction between people, that's the compassion
, total forgiving, total acceptance, and freedom.
.That's even if one have bite the apple, known the feeling, tasting of the
apple, but he still might not really know the apple.. To know the apple, one
needs to BE the apple itself. And In order to do that, one needs to negate
whatever he had learned about the apple and be free from the touching,
feeling, tastes and thinking of it..be the apple so to experience what the
apple has experienced, then one can say yes, I know the apple now, because I
am. Simply put, in Chan ZHong, the ultimate goal is not to know the truth,
but to experience the truth as itself. All the boundaries between we and the
truth must be removed, no matter what it is, good or bad, holly or
【在 Y**u 的大作中提到】
: Agree. With this good example, Chan Zhong probably can go to another level..
: .That's even if one have bite the apple, known the feeling, tasting of the
: apple, but he still might not really know the apple.. To know the appple,
: one needs to BE the apple itself. And In order to do that, one needs to
: negate whatever he had learned about the apple and be free from the touching
: , feeling, teates and thinking of it..be the apple so to experience what the
: apple has expeienced, then one can say yes, I know the apple now, because I
: am. Simply put, in Chan ZHong, the ultimate goal is not to know the truth,
: but to experience the truth as itself. All the boundraies between we and the
: truth must be removed, no matter what it is, good or bad, holly or
| Y**u
发帖数: 5466 | 44
compassion
I believe that too. that's the true LOVE as I understand..
one
negate
I
,
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I see. This explains it very well to me. Thank you!
: At a mundane level for the interaction between people, that's the compassion
: , total forgiving, total acceptance, and freedom.
:
: .That's even if one have bite the apple, known the feeling, tasting of the
: apple, but he still might not really know the apple.. To know the apple, one
: needs to BE the apple itself. And In order to do that, one needs to negate
: whatever he had learned about the apple and be free from the touching,
: feeling, tastes and thinking of it..be the apple so to experience what the
: apple has experienced, then one can say yes, I know the apple now, because I
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 45 Yes, I agree. It's beautiful.
【在 Y**u 的大作中提到】
:
: compassion
: I believe that too. that's the true LOVE as I understand..
: one
: negate
: I
: ,
| S**U
发帖数: 7025 | 46 Although there is not enough consensus of the meaning of common terms among
different Buddhist schools today, this was not the case in early Buddhism,
which is a period up to 100 years after the passing away of the Buddha. The
schism that developed and expanded after that further confuses people about
what the Buddha taught. Abhidhamma tradition gives precise definitions for
each term the Buddha used, from the framework of each school, but this is
not popular among Chinese Buddhists. Nobody knows how to practice according
to Chinese abhidhamma now as far as I know. The Theravada abhidhamma is
still a living tradition of practice.
Lacking a precise language, let alone common one, Chinese Buddhism is more
or less anything goes. Your experience is as good as mine, since you can
explain the teaching of Buddha pretty much in any way you like, and say your
experience is/leads to enlightenment.
The Buddha, as a wise and great teacher, can't possibly leave his followers
confused or guessing what he meant, since he was able to help people become
enlightened many times.
This is not to discount the importance of personal experience. Rather, the
inability to distinguish the nature of diverse personal experiences is not
good. The Buddha and his noble disciples have distilled and described the
essential characteristics of liberation based on personal experience of
numerous people, and this is a valuable gift to us. I appreciate this
heritage very much.
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: Thank you so much!
: In your post, taipingnan mentioned that "语言之所以可以用来交流，是因为大家
: 有共同的经历，有共识，比如说“桌子”，大家都知道那是啥，都用过见过嘛。但佛教
: 上的许多名词是没有共识的，佛教强调个人自己的修行和体悟，具体实修到了什么状态
: ，只有自己才最清楚，用名词说出来后，别人都会有自己的理解，至于这个理解到底有
: 几分和原说者的意思相应，那就要看个人自己的修行情况和悟性了。"
: I agree with this very much. Even when I read the same book, what I
: understand now is different from what I did one year ago. It's the same
: words that I am reading, but I understand them differently given more of my
: experiences. However, if I were to describe my experiences, I can't think of
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 47 Hi, SeeU:
Was the early Buddhism teaching written in Pali or Sanskrit? Do you think
that only that is the original, unaltered, or authentic teaching? Which
translation or explanation of that is the best in Chinese or English, in
your opinion?
I understand that the translation is hard. Take 道德经 for example, there
are several versions of translation in English that people think as good,
but I can't understand everything in it either in Chinese or in English.
Somehow they may complement each other, but I assume that there must be my
own misinterpretations inserted in the blank.
【在 S**U 的大作中提到】
: Although there is not enough consensus of the meaning of common terms among
: different Buddhist schools today, this was not the case in early Buddhism,
: which is a period up to 100 years after the passing away of the Buddha. The
: schism that developed and expanded after that further confuses people about
: what the Buddha taught. Abhidhamma tradition gives precise definitions for
: each term the Buddha used, from the framework of each school, but this is
: not popular among Chinese Buddhists. Nobody knows how to practice according
: to Chinese abhidhamma now as far as I know. The Theravada abhidhamma is
: still a living tradition of practice.
: Lacking a precise language, let alone common one, Chinese Buddhism is more
| S**U
发帖数: 7025 | 48 The earliest Buddhist teaching was transmitted orally, and written down at a
much later date. The earliest written record extant of the Buddha's
teaching was in Pali, about 400 years after his passing away. The Chinese
Agama Sutras was in Sanskrit, and roughly corresponds to Theravada Pali
Nikaya. Although there are differences between them, they are similar enough
. Mahayana sutras, mostly in Sanskrit and appeared at a much later date,
differ more from Agama and Nikaya.
Since there are minor differences between Agama and Nikaya, we can't be
absolutely sure which one is completely authentic. However, the common ones(
there are hundreds, if not thousands of them) are quite credible, especially
if they are expounded/explained by old Commentaries (abhidhamma). The
authenticity of Buddha's teaching is compiled and accepted by a process
called Buddhist Council, which was held six times in Buddhism's 2500 year
history according to Theravada tradition, and the Chinese tradition
acknowledged the first three Buddhist Council as well.
I've written about this process and textual/historical basis of it before.
English translation of Pali Nikaya is best, IMO, for most people to start
with. Pali Nikaya also has extensive commentaries in Pali, though only a
small part of it has been translated into English. Bhikkhu Bodhi's
translation of Pali Nikaya is the best so far. For Chinese counterpart, I
recommend
http://agama.buddhason.org/SA/index.htm
as a start.
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: Hi, SeeU:
: Was the early Buddhism teaching written in Pali or Sanskrit? Do you think
: that only that is the original, unaltered, or authentic teaching? Which
: translation or explanation of that is the best in Chinese or English, in
: your opinion?
: I understand that the translation is hard. Take 道德经 for example, there
: are several versions of translation in English that people think as good,
: but I can't understand everything in it either in Chinese or in English.
: Somehow they may complement each other, but I assume that there must be my
: own misinterpretations inserted in the blank.
| T*******y
发帖数: 6523 | 49 Thank you very much for such a detailed answer. I saved your earlier answer
as well: http://www.mitbbs.com/article/Wisdom/31531425_3.html
【在 S**U 的大作中提到】
: The earliest Buddhist teaching was transmitted orally, and written down at a
: much later date. The earliest written record extant of the Buddha's
: teaching was in Pali, about 400 years after his passing away. The Chinese
: Agama Sutras was in Sanskrit, and roughly corresponds to Theravada Pali
: Nikaya. Although there are differences between them, they are similar enough
: . Mahayana sutras, mostly in Sanskrit and appeared at a much later date,
: differ more from Agama and Nikaya.
: Since there are minor differences between Agama and Nikaya, we can't be
: absolutely sure which one is completely authentic. However, the common ones(
: there are hundreds, if not thousands of them) are quite credible, especially
| b*****l
发帖数: 3821 | 50 我去少林寺时也没觉得少林寺和别的在旅游区的寺庙有多大的不同。
释永信怎么样不知道，也许是君子恶居下流的例子。
【在 Y**u 的大作中提到】
: 这句话释永信说出来感觉很滑稽。释永信以发扬广大少林寺和佛教为名， 这些年干了
: 些什么大家都知道， 为了商业利益的扩大花， 戒律清规荡然无存，佛教乃至少林都成
: 了笑话。 尽管现在这件事（绯闻）多半是假的， 但是无风不起浪， 今天他受到了一
: 点不公正， 就拿出寒山的话来当挡箭牌， 这和寒山的本意已经不是一回事了。。他如
: 果真的能像寒山一样， 又何必去和记者说这些， 乃至让天下人都知道他的操守境界之
: 高。。这哪里是在忍， 是在避， 是在不要理。。 是另一次宣传自己的戏罢了。。
: 另外， 寒山拾得的对话是有背景的。 自禅宗出世以来， 提出了顿教法门， 这在正宗
: 佛教内部在各个时期都不被承认， 而备受打击。。在禅宗的历史上， 经常有人专门提
: 场子， 坛经中就有＂师见诸宗难问。咸起恶心。多集座下。＂这样的记录， 在后来的
: 历史中有很多， 走到哪里， 也都是一样。。禅宗的很多大德， 今天我们看他们很潇
| | | J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 51 中文的阿比达摩具舍论也在你这句话范围内？
Nobody knows how to practice according to Chinese abhidhamma now as far as I
know.
among
The
about
according
【在 S**U 的大作中提到】
: Although there is not enough consensus of the meaning of common terms among
: different Buddhist schools today, this was not the case in early Buddhism,
: which is a period up to 100 years after the passing away of the Buddha. The
: schism that developed and expanded after that further confuses people about
: what the Buddha taught. Abhidhamma tradition gives precise definitions for
: each term the Buddha used, from the framework of each school, but this is
: not popular among Chinese Buddhists. Nobody knows how to practice according
: to Chinese abhidhamma now as far as I know. The Theravada abhidhamma is
: still a living tradition of practice.
: Lacking a precise language, let alone common one, Chinese Buddhism is more
| b**d
发帖数: 7644 | 52 非常欣赏！ 握个手。 对我的口味。
the
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: I don't know what is 我见，我执 ah.
: I want to say that there's really no one, not even Buddha, who can please
: everyone. Pleasing sometimes does not satisfy the other person, and then the
: one pleases often feels resentment when his/her pleasing (or sacrificing)
: didn't give him/her the result s/he wants, and nobody benefits from it.
: It's better to be simple to be oneself, to express one's opinions, either
: the other person agrees or not, that's fine.
| S**U
发帖数: 7025 | 53 Yes.
I
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: 中文的阿比达摩具舍论也在你这句话范围内？
: Nobody knows how to practice according to Chinese abhidhamma now as far as I
: know.
:
: among
: The
: about
: according
| t********n
发帖数: 571 | 54 周恩来是个打仗斗争出身的政治家，做起事情来必然是有锋芒的，人都不知道杀过多少
呢，但这个人性格上是温和的，做事情大多会留点余地。
【在 l*****a 的大作中提到】
: 嗯，不要提老舍啦，你说周恩来有没有锋芒?
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 55 details？
：p
【在 S**U 的大作中提到】
: Yes.
:
: I
| J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 56 Language is for communication. There are two kind of knowledges, rational
and intuitive.
Rational one belongs to the realm of intellect, and is thus a system of
abstract concepts and symbols, characterized by the linear, sequential
structure which is typical of our thinking and speaking.
The natural world is multidimensional, which contains infinite varieties
and complexities happening not in sequences but all together.Therefore, our
abstract system of conceptual thinking can never describe or understand this
reality completely. And it is even harder to describe and write exactly the
intuitive knowledge, which happens more often during meditation or
enlightenment with diverse personal experiences.
But this is quite different with what you stated in below.
Like any known scientific system, Buddhism firstly must be a rational
knowledge system, and we can try to understand it to some extent by
listening and thinking, quite similar as we learn everything. Next we go for
practicing, even on this step the written sutra or commentaries still can
give us some guidances.
my
of
【在 T*******y 的大作中提到】
: Thank you very much for such a detailed answer. I saved your earlier answer
: as well: http://www.mitbbs.com/article/Wisdom/31531425_3.html
| R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 57 zan
our
this
the
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: Language is for communication. There are two kind of knowledges, rational
: and intuitive.
: Rational one belongs to the realm of intellect, and is thus a system of
: abstract concepts and symbols, characterized by the linear, sequential
: structure which is typical of our thinking and speaking.
: The natural world is multidimensional, which contains infinite varieties
: and complexities happening not in sequences but all together.Therefore, our
: abstract system of conceptual thinking can never describe or understand this
: reality completely. And it is even harder to describe and write exactly the
: intuitive knowledge, which happens more often during meditation or
| m*p
发帖数: 1331 | 58 这淫棍想混蒙过去，跟那18个路人一样。公安机关应该马上扣留他Y，好好审审，肯定
有问题。 | S**U
发帖数: 7025 | 59 1. 苦谛四相∶无常、苦、空、无我
2. 集谛四相∶因、集、缘、生
3. 灭谛四相∶灭、静、妙、离
4. 道谛四相∶道、如、行、出
法智是缘欲界四谛而成十六行相；类智缘上二界之四谛，也是成十六行相。所以称为十
六行相，是因四谛各有四种相之差别，所以是十六行相。亦即于苦谛之下，观非常、苦
、空、无我等四行相；集谛之下，观因、集、生、缘等四行相；灭谛之下，观灭、净、
妙、离等四行相；道谛之下，观道、如、行、出等四行相。
对于各各四相的解释也有种种说法。
苦谛的非常，是观吾人身心待缘而生，因缘而散灭，所以是无常；所谓苦，是
观因为逼迫迁流之性，所以是苦；所谓空，是观一切皆违我所见，身心不属于我，所以
是空；所谓非我，是观一切违我见之法，身心非我，所以是非我。集谛之下的因，是观
烦恼、业恰如种子生芽，是将来感苦果之因，此为因之行相；所谓集，是观都是现果之
理，所以是集；所谓生，是观使生果相续之理，所以是生；所谓缘，是观烦恼、业恰如
由泥团、轮、绳、水等众缘和合而成办瓶等，由于是成办苦果之理所以是缘。灭谛下的
灭，观涅盘是有漏五蕴等完全断尽之法，所以是止灭；所谓静，是观贪瞠痴三火永息，
所以是寂静；所谓妙，是观涅盘不是众患忧苦，所以是妙；所谓离，是观由于脱离众灾
过患，所以是出离。道谛之下的道，是观由于依道谛（无漏智）而趣向圣者，所以是道
；所谓如，是观由于契于正理，所以是如理；所谓行，是观确实趣向行进涅盘，所以是
行；所谓出，是观永远脱出三界，所以是出。
又，所谓非常，因为是因缘生，是刹那变迁，所以不是究竟的涅盘；所谓苦，
因为有漏之果如人荷重担，因此是苦；所谓空，因为五蕴之内离人我，所以是空；所谓
非我，因为有漏之果，完全不自在，所以是非我。所谓因，因为惑、业牵引有漏之果；
所谓集，因为出现有漏之果；所谓生，因为滋产增生有漏之果；所谓缘，因为是有漏果
之所依。所谓灭，因为断尽三界生存之相续；所谓静，因为脱离生、异、灭三种有为相
；所谓妙，因为涅盘是胜义善；所谓离，因为极安稳。所谓道，因为道谛对治邪道；所
谓如，因为对治不如理；所谓行，因为趣入涅盘宫殿；所谓出，因为弃舍一切生存。
这些解释大体上差别不大，因此两种说法结合起来，意义可能更明了。
像这样，关于四谛，无论是欲界或上二界，都观四相，因此成为四谛十六行相
，无论是法智或类智都如此，由此而断惑。此中苦谛之下的四行相，是对治常乐我净之
四颠倒，因此名与体都有四个，而集灭道等三谛各各的四行相，名各有四个，但是体只
有一个，也就是只有集灭道等三个，所以合起来是七。
世俗智缘一切法，因此不只是十六行相，而是成一切法的自相、共相等行相。
例如在暖、顶、忍之位，对于四谛，具修十六行相；在上忍及世第一之位，只对苦谛修
一行相；在五停心、别相念住、总相念住之位，观诸法之自相与共相。无庸赘言，苦智
、集智、灭智、道智等四智，各对自谛成前述四种行相。关于他心智，是无漏时，由于
摄于道智，因此缘道谛，成道、如、行、出之四行相；如果是有漏性，只缘自己所缘心
心所之自相。然而于一念之间，只缘一事为境，因此缘心时，不缘心所；缘心所时，不
缘心。
However, this systematic exposition is good for explanation, and it should
be combined with sequence and guidelines for practice. In comparison,
Theravada's Abhidammasangaha & Visudhimagga complements each other, the
former giving a systematic exposition of the objects of meditation, and the
latter a sequence and practical guidelines when practicing insight
meditation. Theravada teachers can guide you in meditation according to
these books, backed by personal meditation and teaching experience. What
they learn in books is a living tradition of meditation.
This is not the case with Northern abhidharma.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: details？
: ：p
| l*****a
发帖数: 38403 | 60 不提政治（据说他原先还负责暗杀特务？）单是以做人来讲，谤欺辱笑轻贱恶骗他都不
是很容易吧
【在 t********n 的大作中提到】
: 周恩来是个打仗斗争出身的政治家，做起事情来必然是有锋芒的，人都不知道杀过多少
: 呢，但这个人性格上是温和的，做事情大多会留点余地。
| | | J******s
发帖数: 7538 | 61 大概明白了，不过我觉得这个四谛十六行相还是很有可取之处的。
你不觉得麽？
：-）
【在 S**U 的大作中提到】
: 1. 苦谛四相∶无常、苦、空、无我
: 2. 集谛四相∶因、集、缘、生
: 3. 灭谛四相∶灭、静、妙、离
: 4. 道谛四相∶道、如、行、出
: 法智是缘欲界四谛而成十六行相；类智缘上二界之四谛，也是成十六行相。所以称为十
: 六行相，是因四谛各有四种相之差别，所以是十六行相。亦即于苦谛之下，观非常、苦
: 、空、无我等四行相；集谛之下，观因、集、生、缘等四行相；灭谛之下，观灭、净、
: 妙、离等四行相；道谛之下，观道、如、行、出等四行相。
: 对于各各四相的解释也有种种说法。
: 苦谛的非常，是观吾人身心待缘而生，因缘而散灭，所以是无常；所谓苦，是
| S**U
发帖数: 7025 | 62 Yes. There are many valuable material in Chinese abhidharma collection.
I simply point out nobody knows how to practice in this system now, which is
a pity. It will take Buddhist masters to revive it.
【在 J******s 的大作中提到】
: 大概明白了，不过我觉得这个四谛十六行相还是很有可取之处的。
: 你不觉得麽？
: ：-）
| b**d
发帖数: 7644 | 63 从另一个角度看。人都是分派别的。每个人都有仇人和亲人。基本上如果A 欺辱你，A
的仇人B也欺辱你的可能性就非常小啦。
【在 d********d 的大作中提到】
: 你这个提议毫无现实意义。
: 被众人谤欺辱笑轻贱恶骗的，绝对做不到
: 忍让由避耐敬不理。反之
: 能忍让由避耐敬不理，不可能被
: 众人谤欺辱笑轻贱恶骗。
:
: what
: self-
| b**d
发帖数: 7644 | 64 俺的意思是说人要足够聪明，做到忍并不难，恶人自有恶人磨，犯不着自己操那个心。 | R*o
发帖数: 3781 | 65 都是中庸之道的问题
A
【在 b**d 的大作中提到】
: 从另一个角度看。人都是分派别的。每个人都有仇人和亲人。基本上如果A 欺辱你，A
: 的仇人B也欺辱你的可能性就非常小啦。
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