w****1
发帖数: 4931 | 1 It was just past 8am, and I found myself in Bear Mountain, NY, having been
running for the last 3 hours. A few minutes ago I was at the aid station at
mile 13.9, snatched a few boiled potatoes dipped in salt, grabbed a quarter
peanut butter sandwich, and dropped a Nuun electrolyte tablet in my
waterbottle. Any other day, I would have been wondering, how could I
possibly run THAT slow, covering only 14 miles in 3 hours? But today,
staring down the trails, I was thinking more like, how could one p... 阅读全帖 |
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b*****s
发帖数: 540 | 2 Buy (almost) anything for free
Advanced email list
You are subscribed to the Frequent Miler advanced email list either because
you selected the appropriate box when you signed up for my email newsletter
or because you signed up for daily blog emails when you signed up for the
newsletter. In the latter case, your email address was migrated to another
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hopefully!). If you do not want to receive advanced emails like this one,
pl... 阅读全帖 |
|
w********6
发帖数: 12977 | 3 Wow, I hope sometime I can run that 20 miler, never ran a sub 8 min pace 20
miler before except in my race |
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w****1
发帖数: 4931 | 4 well done! actually up to now, I have never completed a single marathon
training plan. I have always either lost my patience or got injured, or both
.:) Despite what it looks like, my training this year has been the most
systematic for me!
A couple years back, running a 20 miler was a big deal for me. It took a lot
out of me just to finish it in a training run. When the 20-milers got
easier, the marathon also became easier. |
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c*******r
发帖数: 293 | 5 Average heart rate，153
早上6：40开始跑，到8点多的时候太阳上来了。温度阳光都上来了，心律开始上升，
pace开始下降。到17迈的时候右腿还小抽筋了一下，不过很快就好了。以后不能再懒惰
了，要提前开跑，避开高温时段。
今年以前也在跑步机上跑过两个20-miler，不过昨天是第一个路跑20-miler。一个字,
爽！
然后就到Six Flags给孩儿们当拎包的去乐。 |
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c********d
发帖数: 11593 | 6 是娃在youtube上发现的动画，还是延续了Zdenek Miler一贯的清新可爱的画面。虽然
有点老旧，看来仍然舒服。
某经纪人意外发掘了一个爱吹口琴的男孩和一只喜欢随口琴起舞的毛毛虫。随即是无限
星途，大红大紫，内容有点像鼹鼠系列里的《鼹鼠是电影明星》。起初看到男孩为了一
把糖果签约时颇有些扼腕，隐约觉得这男孩从此要经历不知多少丑陋而纯真不再；好在
我很快就发现自己错了——Zdenek Miler眼中的世界从来是美好纯真，在鼹鼠系列和蟋
蟀系列中都是如此，这里也是一样。当毛毛虫在圣诞夜化蛹为蝶翩然远去时，男孩并未
懊丧或伤感，而是欣然吹奏最后一曲以为送别。
娃的观后感：“如果我是毛毛虫，我就不会走。累死也不走。”
我问：”为什么？因为可以坐飞机到处玩？会收到很多礼物？还是因为到哪里大家都喜
欢你？“
回答：”我希望到哪里都有朋友。“
额……看来那种返璞归真是不能在如今的小孩子身上追求的了。 |
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a****h
发帖数: 1012 | 7 一直没有搞明白，这个MILLION MILER是干什么用的。。。 |
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f*******g
发帖数: 3304 | 8 住NYC,物价高, 对我而言的好处是,有工作, 一年四季比赛多,便宜. 现在是老油条, 没
事比比赛,当作TEMPO RUN,时不时体会下痛不欲生的感觉.
这在平时CASUAL RUN里是体会不到的.
这是两周前的4-MILER, 男女分开,各约1900人.
男子8:30跑, 我实在起不来,又要顶头把车在7:30送车行DO OIL CHANGE, THEN TAKE
SUBWAY TO 赛场, 提前15分到达,
休息的不是太好, 也没有充分WARM UP, 全当训练吧, 最后26:30完成, 最后一个MILE
约6:15. 第一为19:42, 牲口啊
照片是女子比赛场面, 第一22:53.
我这次又看到盲女RUNNER, 由队友用绳引导, 我估计约26:00左右, 感慨万千 ``` |
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m**k
发帖数: 18660 | 9 first one to congratulate !
first 50 milers in this board?
you made it. (I am also amazed for the nice report itself)
nails |
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m**k
发帖数: 18660 | 10 Running an Ultra sometime is just to seek the pain.
As he said, 50 milers is just not painful enough!
to |
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r*********f
发帖数: 24 | 11 coooooooool!
i think all serious runners wanna put a 50-miler or a 100K into their to-run
-list, right? |
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b*****4
发帖数: 97 | 12 re 这个
When the 20-milers got
easier, the marathon also became easier. |
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w*******e
发帖数: 2651 | 13 Impressive pace for a 20-miler, congrats!
I especially like the last push. |
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y******n
发帖数: 4527 | 14 pretty much I can not speed up anymore @ 7:30 which I think is somehow slow
for myself. The feeling is that I run out of gas and do not have any energy
supply to move my legs.
Last time I hit the wall in a 15 miler in which I felt like to fall down if
I pushed a bit more.
Saturday
with |
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R*****s
发帖数: 41236 | 15 WOW almost 6:00 pace for 5-miler, that was fast...
taken
guy
means |
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c*******r
发帖数: 13580 | 16 以前最长只跑过17.5。第一个20 miler如临大敌，前一天的recover跑的无比慢，吃的
还特多，跑前2小时吃了俩香蕉一大坨soda bread，跑的时候带了4个gel。天气不错，
就是开始风太大，后来太阳下山了就没风了，50多度，clear sky，很舒服。最后几迈
跑的很舒服，还剩1.5迈的时候慢慢加到了MP，finished strong. 20.48mi, 8:45/mi，
包括两次bathroom break，吃了俩gel，喝了16oz水。今天早上上楼梯觉得还是有点喘
，不过似乎没有大不适。看来继续练下去跑进3:30还是希望很大。
Type Distance Duration Avg HR Max HR Notes
Interval 1 mi 9:03.33 153 174
Interval 1 mi 9:02.03 136 140
Interval 1 mi 8:58.44 136 140
Interval 1 mi 8:45.82 137 141
Interval 1 mi 8:48.5 138 142
Interval 1 mi ... 阅读全帖 |
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y******n
发帖数: 4527 | 17 with Boston and the 50 miler in three weeks, how could he make it?
Last year two marathons in three weeks put me in a miserable stage, with
injuries lasting to the end of the year. |
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w****1
发帖数: 4931 | 18 tony and pen were the pioneers. I didn't know bear mountain was this hard
until a day before the race.:) I may try running with the devil next year.
for badwater, one needs two 100 milers in the bag and then ask for the
invitation. |
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y******n
发帖数: 4527 | 19 ☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
serendip (serendipity) 于 (Thu Jul 14 15:51:58 2011, 美东) 提到:
Dear Ultra Running Community,
I am writing to the list to share my story of acute renal failure. I do
not post to the list often but I feel that this story is important for the
community to know. I would welcome any questions or comments in regard to
this report especially from any medical professionals who may be out
there.
Some people on this list know me and many do not so let me start wit... 阅读全帖 |
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R*****s
发帖数: 41236 | 20 BQ当然跟天赋有关，很多人就算持之以恒的训练也不一定能BQ，
而有些人随便跑跑就BQ了，这跟天赋没关，跟啥有关？
科学训练只能说尽快的把人的天赋开发出来...同样跟AM55，
有的人可以破3， 有的BQ都没戏，这是为啥？
Meb中学每周跑20多迈，miler sub 4:30, 这里所有人就是跑死，也跑不进4:30，
这就是天赋...你让一个miler 5分的人，和一个miler 7分的人去冲击BQ，
你觉得难度会一样么？另外不是说只有miler进5分的才叫有天赋，miler
进6分的，相对于miler跑不进7分的同样是有天赋，天赋程度不同而已...
任何业余跑者如果真能坚持认真科学训练几年，最终会慢慢接近自己的极限...
鸵鸟在本版其实并不是天赋最好的，但却是AG%最高的，人就是踏踏实实跑步，
不管别人说啥...
天赋好的轻松跑进某个成绩，然后夸夸奇谈，说你们这帮跑不进的都是
不刻苦，都不正常，就是FP... |
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i*********5
发帖数: 19210 | 21 大家应该都听说过Team Hoyt的故事了，但是我是今天才偶然发现他们的最好时间。太
了不起了！
Best End Times
Ironman Triathlon 13:43:37
Marathon 2:40:47
Half Marathon 1:21:12
20 Miler 2:10:45
18.6 Miler 2:01:54
10 Miler 59:01
7.1 Miler 40:27
5 Miler 27:17
15K 56:21
10K 35:48
5K 17:40
http://www.teamhoyt.com/about/racing-history.html |
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i*********5
发帖数: 19210 | 22 【 以下文字转载自 Running 讨论区 】
发信人: ironman2015 (ironman circa 2015), 信区: Running
标 题: Team Hoyt - Marathon PB 2:40:47, HM PB 1:21:12
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Tue Jan 4 12:05:04 2011, 美东)
大家应该都听说过Team Hoyt的故事了，但是我是今天才偶然发现他们的最好时间。太
了不起了！
Best End Times
Ironman Triathlon 13:43:37
Marathon 2:40:47
Half Marathon 1:21:12
20 Miler 2:10:45
18.6 Miler 2:01:54
10 Miler 59:01
7.1 Miler 40:27
5 Miler 27:17
15K 56:21
10K 35:48
5K 17:40
http://www.teamhoyt.com/about/racing-history.html |
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w****1
发帖数: 4931 | 23 I'm not going to taper at all for this marathon, or at most I will taper
only in the final week. I will do a 20 miler next Sunday. While it is true
that I have not done a 20-miler recently, the 15-miler at marathon pace was
quite easy for me, no soreness whatsoever. So if I slow down for 10-15
seconds per mile, a 20-miler training run should be fairly easy at this
moment, and I feel that I'm in better shape than I was last fall, before bay state marathon. The reason is that, last fall I still ne |
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w****1
发帖数: 4931 | 24 Actually, I have always done a 20-miler two weeks before the marathon,
except my last one. Since I BQed in
my last one, I trust that doing a 17-miler two weeks before the race is
enough.:) Although, I followed AM and
did a short time trial the day before, so actually, that 17-miler felt more
difficult than a regular slow and
relaxed 20 miler. |
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f*******n
发帖数: 5241 | 25 HTC （1）- 训练
很早就答应了跑H2C。答应了的事情，就不能不认真对待，尤其是还关系到另外11个队
员，更由于我自己水平太臭，只有靠认真的训练，才不至于太愧对大家。因为规定每个
队的平均pace不能低于9:30，我就以此作为目标了。当时还只跑过一个马拉松，按公式
相当于10K 58:25。我想，训练一下，应该10K可以达到57:00，因此我报名时就乐观地
报了这个成绩。
为了保证自己的训练，我决定在5月中跑一个马拉松。用马拉松作为Relay的tune up
race的我是不是独一份啊？：）这个马拉松用了FIRST的16周计划，其中有5个20-miler
。但是因为我起点低，第一个20-miler没能准时完成，后面的计划都有些滞后，以至于
到比赛前的三周和两周，我都跑了一个Hard的20-miler，pace是MP+15秒，虽然当时都
完成了，但是后面恢复不太够，导致马拉松的后面4迈没体力了。但是FISRT的高强度训
练，对这次Relay7-8迈这种距离的比赛可能效果倒是特别的好。那次马拉松跑了4:21:
20，相当于10K的57:16。我从来没跑过马拉松以外的比赛，所以只能用很土... 阅读全帖 |
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w****1
发帖数: 4931 | 26 If you have trouble finishing the planned workouts following the 20-miler,
it means that you ran the 20-miler faster than what your "long run pace" is
supposed to be. It's not a bad thing that you run hard in your workouts, but
don't expect your marathon pace to be a whole lot faster than your current
long run pace.
Also, a lot of people (including myself) run the 20-milers with an extended warm-up, and run a certain later part at a faster pace, sometimes at race pace. So even though the average |
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w*******e
发帖数: 2651 | 27 Question:
Are you planning or willing to run 2010 Big Sur?
and what is your choice?
The race date is April 25, 2010.
1. Marathon
2. 21-Miler
3. 10.6-Miler
4. 9-Miler
5. Relay
6. 5K & 3K |
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w****1
发帖数: 4931 | 28 It all depends on the pace. When I ran the 50-miler, I didn't feel tired at
all at mile 25, whereas in a marathon I would feel like dying at mile 25.
The 20-miler is the workout of the week. It is not supposed to be easy. If
it is easy, then you are running too slowly. It is not supposed to be too
hard either, unless it is a pace run in which case you are supposed to hold
on to the target pace. I always feel that the only part of a 20-miler that
matters is the last few miles, and the whole point |
|
m****i
发帖数: 1980 | 29 i have no guts to thinking about the 20 miler right now, from today my first
15 miler, i knew it's going to be hard.
i can't got up early in the morning:( so when i started it was almost 10am,
and the heat was already very hot. i was debating whether to do a 8-9 mile
since it's too hot to do a 15 miler today, at that point it was close to
12pm, that part of the trail has no cover, i think the temperature was close
to 90s and i am thirsty, burning, and complete out of water...
i didn't die, and i |
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w****1
发帖数: 4931 | 30 Before this year, I have never done longer than 20.5 miles in marathon
training (although I did a bit longer in
ultra training). I did a 21-miler when my weekly mileage went up to 65 over
the summer, and recently I did a
couple 22-milers when my weekly mileage went up to 75. I definitely would
not recommend 22-miler for
those whose weekly mileage is under 50.
only |
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w****1
发帖数: 4931 | 31 How you run a 20-miler is more important than how many 20-milers you run. If
you can run 20 miles on back to back weekends and your body recovers just
fine, then go for it. If you can't recover from the 20 miles in a week,
there is not much point in dragging tired legs along for another 20-miler. |
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e*e
发帖数: 6808 | 32 In my original plan, the only 20 miler was 2 week before the race.
I think that should be fine.
But lken shouldn't run the 20 miler with 8:40 targeted pace, even without
considering all the pains/injuries he is having.
plus, if lken decides to go for a 20 miler, he should slow down during
weekdays runs.
my 2 cents. |
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c*********n
发帖数: 2120 | 33 The 100 mile race started on 6am and 50 mile started on 7am. A few minutes
before the start of the 100mile one, I wore my 3-lay-running clothes with a
big jacket to get a glimpse of what those 100 milers looked like. Wow,
Scott Jurek really has a 1000Watt smile, then I noticed both Scott and Anton
Krupicka were wearing shorts at this about 20F temperature. Well, they are
from Colorado, and Anton was originally from Alaska. So cold and hot are
really relative thing and I forgave myself.
It was a... 阅读全帖 |
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R*****s
发帖数: 41236 | 34 从BAA网站看到一个人的训练log, 他去年的Boston：2:36:14，
他今年准备突破2：31， 我把他的训练log copy过来， 他最
高的周mileage也只有80迈左右。 我现在觉得训练里真正有推
动作用的还是Longrun, Tempo, Interval这些hard training,
其他的easy run都是帮助你恢复用的， 不需要太长。
他的20周训练log, 从倒数第3周开始， 大家可以参考一下：
Age: 32
Resides: Boston
Marathon PR: 2:35:34 (Cape Cod, 2010)
Marathon Goal: 2:30:59 (Boston, 2011)
Marathon History:
November, 2007 Philadelphia Marathon 3:01:04
April, 2008 Boston Marathon 3:08:20
October, 2008 Cape Cod Marathon 2:45:36
April, 2009 Boston Marathon 2:... 阅读全帖 |
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s******p
发帖数: 819 | 35 Less than 24 hours after nyc triathlon, I’ve already feel 90% recovered, so
I decided to run to work as usual. The run felt so easy and it became a
tempo run after 1 mile warm up. I can’t help comparing the intensity of
triathlon races to running races.
Here is an approximate intensity comparison, at least to me:
sprint = swim + 10k
olympic = swim + half marathon
half iron = swim + marathon
iron = swim + 50 miler
double iron = swim + 100 miler
So for a serious marathon runner, if she knows how t... 阅读全帖 |
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f*******n
发帖数: 5241 | 36 很早就答应了跑H2C。答应了的事情，就不能不认真对待，尤其是还关系到另外11个队
员，更由于我自己水平太臭，只有靠认真的训练，才不至于太愧对大家。因为规定每个
队的平均pace不能低于9:30，我就以此作为目标了。当时还只跑过一个马拉松，按公式
相当于10K 58:25。我想，训练一下，应该10K可以达到57:00，因此我报名时就乐观地
报了这个成绩。
为了保证自己的训练，我决定在5月中跑一个马拉松。用马拉松作为Relay的tune up
race的我是不是独一份啊？：）这个马拉松用了FIRST的16周计划，其中有5个20-miler
。但是因为我起点低，第一个20-miler没能准时完成，后面的计划都有些滞后，以至于
到比赛前的三周和两周，我都跑了一个Hard的20-miler，pace是MP+15秒，虽然当时都
完成了，但是后面恢复不太够，导致马拉松的后面4迈没体力了。但是FISRT的高强度训
练，对这次Relay7-8迈这种距离的比赛可能效果倒是特别的好。那次马拉松跑了4:21:
20，相当于10K的57:16。我从来没跑过马拉松以外的比赛，所以只能用很土的“相当于
”来估算。
... 阅读全帖 |
|
L***0
发帖数: 1283 | 37 You will have to push a little in a 50-miler, no matter how slow you go. Two
weeks before a 100-miler, and you will risk a DNF in the 100 miler. Caballo
Blanco did a 40-mile training run two weeks before Leadville this year, and
ended up with a DNF at Leadville. |
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o*******r
发帖数: 4921 | 38 我居然一个字一个字的读完了。
http://www.psychowyco.com/id74.html
Proper T-Shirt Etiquette
In the running and triathlete community the wearing of race T-Shirts has
become a sign of accomplishment and fashion. Choosing just the right T-Shirt
for that special occasion can be a daunting and difficult task. The
following guidelines have been compiled (in fun), to help the responsible T-
shirt wearer avoid potential embarrassment and/or elevate their perceived
status in their athletic community.
This list was forme... 阅读全帖 |
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f*******g
发帖数: 3304 | 39 猜也是 跑那个200M 的INDOOR TRACK 无形也比实际1 MILER比赛要慢些
俺跑的是一条直线的
热身很重要 你跑一段时间的SPEED后 功力又涨了
老村民都知道我说过的1-MILER的故事： 话说当年 火星人 在3次全马大PR后 突然失去
跑全程的动力， BOSTON也不报名。 只是在家里跑步机是日复一日的 做着 5MILER
30MIN 机械运动
现在已经是第3台跑步机了 专业的能跑MAX15的那种
3-4年前 他突发奇想 要跑过 SUB5的 1 MILER， 悄悄溜进中学的TRACK, 热身后
使劲吃奶的劲 最后4:5X 跑完了 一个人冲过线后 眼前一片漆黑 晕倒了 ··· 一
年多以后我听到亲口叙说 也当场晕倒 哈哈 |
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j***y
发帖数: 5098 | 40 ☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
serendip ( x) 于 (Wed Aug 31 10:35:27 2011, 美东) 提到:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TFWDUsvL
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
LT100 (Kilian's quest) 于 (Wed Aug 31 10:37:33 2011, 美东) 提到:
Interesting how the tree line is so low over there. For me, beautiful
scenery = above the tree line.
☆─────────────────────────────────────☆
serendip ( x) 于 (Wed Aug 31 10:41:00 2011, 美东) 提到:
the rock formation is different there... 阅读全帖 |
|
s******p
发帖数: 819 | 41 【 以下文字转载自 Running 讨论区 】
发信人: serendip (serendipity), 信区: Running
标 题: Some thoughts during my 6 mile tempo run this morning
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Mon Aug 8 11:11:58 2011, 美东)
Less than 24 hours after nyc triathlon, I’ve already feel 90% recovered, so
I decided to run to work as usual. The run felt so easy and it became a
tempo run after 1 mile warm up. I can’t help comparing the intensity of
triathlon races to running races.
Here is an approximate intensity comparison, at least to me:
sprint = swim ... 阅读全帖 |
|
p********y
发帖数: 5141 | 42 how come it gets worse for the second time? for 13 milers and 15 milers it
always gets better for the second time.
i really want to build up my long run to 23 mile for at least once. as i am
not sure whether i can make it to 26 miles if i only run 20 milers
previously.
is it still too early for me to run a marathon? and after this one, i
probably will never run a road race any more unless it is big 4 or part of
tri. i will convert to trail running, so much fun! |
|
i*********5
发帖数: 19210 | 43 http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/triathlon/minimalist-iro
Minimalist Ironman Training
By Matt Fitzgerald
You can prepare for a successful Ironman triathlon with a program that has
an average training volume of only 12 hours per week and a briefly-
maintained peak training volume of 16 hours. And by “successful” I don’t
mean finishing alive. I mean covering the distance as fast as your genetic
potential allows. In fact, I believe that many triathletes can race a faster
Ironman by following ... 阅读全帖 |
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m*****u
发帖数: 5534 | 44 ¹Transaction must be completed between now and 11:59pm EST on September
30, 2011 to receive the 100 percent mileage bonus. The 100 percent bonus
mile offer expires at 11:59 pm on September 30, 2011. Bonus miles for Buy
Miles transactions will be awarded to the purchaser's SkyMiles account.
Bonus miles for Gift and Transfer Miles transactions will be awarded to the
recipient's SkyMiles account. The 100 percent mileage bonus will post within
24 hours of purchase. This program may not be avail... 阅读全帖 |
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n*******y
发帖数: 3337 | 45 【 以下文字转载自 EasyMoney 俱乐部 】
发信人: newjersey (NJ furniture dealer), 信区: EasyMoney
标 题: 呵呵，CHASE很好玩。
发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Tue Mar 27 15:21:29 2012, 美东)
Two sides of Chase
I called the Chase Sapphire customer service desk twice this week. The
first call was a disaster. The second was awesome. Read on.
Background:
Recently I posted how to get huge savings at Kohl’s by buying discount gift
cards, going through Ultimate Rewards Mall, and applying a 20% off coupon.
There was some speculation in the comment... 阅读全帖 |
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y****a
发帖数: 71 | 46 最近我在午休时间最喜欢做的一件事就是看ctv.ca上的新闻评论， 通常一个消息允许最多108个观众评论； 最新的一个功能是对这些评论观众你可以点击赞同或者反对， 这样你可以清楚的看到大众对公众话题的意见。
言归正传， 多伦多垃圾工人罢工进入第19天， 今天的消息是市长david miler把offer公开给大众， 激起了另一轮观众的讨论。 miler提出了四年之内涨工资1%，1%，2%，3%的计划，The offer includes new short-term disability plan, a partial sick leave payout and a modest salary increase. The unions, however, say the sick days are non-negotiable.
观众的评论绝大多数是谴责工会和垃圾工人的。 我把他们的意见归纳为以下几类。
1. 解雇这些工会的工人雇佣私人公司， 我很乐意接替这份工作， 因为经济衰退我刚刚下岗。
2. 经济在衰退， 大家都接受减薪， 工会厚脸皮， bank sick days 的做法不能接受 |
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h******2
发帖数: 1498 | 47 yeah, if i had the time i would love to train on hills... problem is where i
live i need to drive 30 minutes just to get to a small hill. so for now i
use the 10 miler as my training motivator.
it's pretty pathetic -- if i'm lucky i might get in 10-20 miles on my bike a
week. i spend most time running now since that's more time efficient. and
surprisingly i have been breaking my PBs at the 10 miler throughout the
summer, and i am a stronger rider than i was a year ago.
particular |
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c*******r
发帖数: 13580 | 48 I understand your passion about riding, but trust me, a 33 miler without
sleep is a big deal. Of course you can't compare it with an ironman. But
death ride, I'm not sure about that. I'd take the challenge of death ride
with a month or two's training, since I am never afraid of elevation gain.
Running a 33 miler without injury, I don't think I can do it, at least not
yet.
than |
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h******2
发帖数: 1498 | 49 for a 100-miler, absolutely yes.
you probably want to do a 20 miler first to see if the seat and handle bar
position fits. |
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m****g
发帖数: 3975 | 50
Gunny Gorge(看得我心花怒放)
Boulder Garden Class III
Maneuver around large boulders, mostly river right, though variations exist.
Scout left. Posted By: Daniel A.
Chukar Rapid Class III
Located just down stream of the put in, Chukar is a single drop class III.
Most choose to run center at higher water and the right slot at lower flows.
There is a nice tongue left of center at flows around 750 cfs. After Chukar
is One Miler Rapid - Class III, run left of the center rock depending on
flows... 阅读全帖 |
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